Go Back   Team-BHP > Around the Corner > Shifting gears


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th February 2016, 19:34   #61
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: bangalore
Posts: 289
Thanked: 94 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

I second WindRide. I have exchanged 916 gold bought more than 10 years ago(from an obscure jeweller in kerala) at Tanishq, Bangalore and the CaratMeter at Tanishq showed it as 22c gold. They also manually checked it and confirmed it as 22c gold. I doubt if all the devices are also rigged.
m8002? is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2016, 22:58   #62
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chennai
Posts: 115
Thanked: 113 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

Okay it's not that far fetched. Think about it most people buy gold based on what the jeweler tell you unless you decided to independently verify every piece of jewellary its easy to mix it up.

Once bought the gold stays in the family for generations. We are the biggest importers of the gold so I would like to believe it's all pure!

What troubles me is when you ask for auth cert you invariably end up paying more, why? Does it mean the gold quality is different.

Again I am not saying every piece of gold is 18c but there is a healthy mix of low and high quality and the jewelers have figured out ways to move them.

One more clue, when I take a Canadian maple leaf coin I get top dollar. Obviously because it's government authenticated but when I try to sell my grandmothers chain for example it would be a mixed bag. Just saying.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th February 2016 at 11:47. Reason: cuz > because. Please refrain from using SMS lingo while posting on the forums. Thanks!
krcustoms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2016, 23:31   #63
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,016
Thanked: 646 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

Quote:
Originally Posted by krcustoms View Post
my 2 cents about this is most of the gold sold in India is 18c.

yes I know its a huge claim but looks like there is a unspoken understanding among all the gold jewelers so even if you buy the gold from one place which is suppose to be 22c (even though its only 18c) and sell it at another its okay. see its like me scratch your back and you scratch my back.

A few years ago an Indian family from Australia bought a gold brick which was supposed to be 22c. when they took it to Australia they wanted to safe keep it in a bank. the bank had a simple rule. only 22c gold can be kept in the lockers. the bank did the test and guess what they found the fold to be only 18c pure even thought it was sold as 22c.

they rushed back because a 1 kg of gold is like crores!!) and guess what the jeweler took the brick back without uttering a single word!!

go figure.
Sorry mate, you've got your facts mixed up with loads of rumours, miscalculations etc.

Firstly 1 kg of gold is not worth crores, today it's less than 30 lacs for 1 kg of 24 carat gold.
Secondly, bricks of gold are usually 999 purity which is 24 carat not 22 or 18 carat.

Thirdly, not all jewellers are a cartel, yes there are many black sheep, but it's very wrong of you to paint them all with the same brush, especially when you do not have any proof of it. Just rumours will not cut it.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 16th February 2016 at 11:48. Reason: Quoted post edited.
Lalvaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 01:48   #64
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Thad E Ginathom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 7,608
Thanked: 6,692 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

When we go to a jeweller's shop and buy gold itmes, we are charged "wastage," and the amount can be very high, even as much as 20%.

How is it possible that, in the making of a piece, ten to twenty percent of the gold purchased by the jeweller is "wasted?" It is not possible. With a hand-crafted item, all waste is collected and used or sold back to the bullion suppliers. Even the file and saw dust is saved. As a hobby-jeweller, a decades ago, I did this for silver, let alone the much, much more valuable gold.

I have argued with a jeweller that the wastage on an imported, cast item would have been practically zero, but "wastage" seems to be their name for profit margin and we are stuck with it.

I don't know how generations of canny, hard-bargaining Indian women have accepted this "wastage" business for so long!
Thad E Ginathom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 11:39   #65
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 604
Thanked: 186 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

Quote:
Originally Posted by krcustoms View Post
...when I try to sell my grandmothers chain for example it would be a mixed bag. Just saying..
Most old jewellery were not 22ct gold. Older jewellery had less gold and more copper and other metals to make the alloy stronger. That's why old jewellery is longer lasting than the newer 22ct jewellery which thins out at joints and breaks within an year or two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
When we go to a jeweller's shop and buy gold itmes, we are charged "wastage," and the amount can be very high, even as much as 20%.

How is it possible that, in the making of a piece, ten to twenty percent of the gold purchased by the jeweller is "wasted?" ....
When you buy new jewellery, you pay a "making" charge (differs according to the complexity of the item - intricate designs can go upto 20% or more) in addition to value of the gold and other embelishments in it. So the more attractive the design the more you shell out as "making" charge.

And when you go to exchange or sell old jewellery, the jeweller values only the gold content in it. Everything else goes to the trash can - stones, enamel, sweat, dirt, grime, etc, etc. Makes sense, if you think about it.
WindRide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 12:11   #66
Senior - BHPian
 
alpha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: P00NA
Posts: 1,613
Thanked: 949 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I don't know how generations of canny, hard-bargaining Indian women have accepted this "wastage" business for so long!
They have been accepting this because gold as an asset is a distant secondary role (and only to justify the purchase to the menfolk).
The primary role is adornment, for which women usually do not bargain that well.

If asset was the primary aim of Indian women, then the sale of biscuits would've dwarfed the sale of jewellery.
alpha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 12:55   #67
BHPian
 
TheTeacher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Space-Time
Posts: 477
Thanked: 314 Times
Default Re: Lalithaa Jewellers Fraud !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
When we go to a jeweler's shop and buy gold items, we are charged "wastage," and the amount can be very high, even as much as 20%.
Somebody I know did some consulting for a jeweler (reputed nationwide). He said that mostly, it is a small scale industry; the business gives gold to clusters of small-time jewelers who do the actual work. The maximum wastage these craftsmen are allowed is, hold your breath, 1%!

Most of the jewellery we have purchased was at 20% wastage nominal, with "I have charged you 2% less wastage sir", so 18% wastage. On top of this, there are making charges for which there is also a generous 5% discount! No wonder it is an extremely profitable business.

This consultant further said that as a profession, it is entered into by boys around 10-12 years of age. The working life is only 10-12 years because of the toxic fumes they inhale while working. Many apparently go blind, become sick or disabled in their early twenties and are unable to work thereafter. He was trying to organize them into co-ops so they can have medical care and a pension when they can't work anymore.

I am equally guilty as anybody for buying jewellery for the wife and kid, but it seems to be tainted stuff with bad karma attached.
TheTeacher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 13:40   #68
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 442
Thanked: 33 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

This is quite an illuminating thread.

Have only exchanged thrice but Navratna and Bheema calculated as per the net weight of gold in the original receipt. Somehow I didn't feel comfortable doing both the exchanges, maybe it was because I felt that we were being steered towards certain pieces of jewelry.

Some like Ganjam will give the full net value of gold and diamonds in case of an exchange, but will deduct 15% IIRC in case of a refund.

Last time I went to Tanishq, the gold jewelry my wife liked had wastage of 30%. Apparently it was sandblasted.

If people think that gold jewelry is a racket, then diamonds can only be considered as fraud.
nowwhat? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 13:41   #69
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Thad E Ginathom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 7,608
Thanked: 6,692 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
Most old jewellery were not 22ct gold. Older jewellery had less gold and more copper and other metals to make the alloy stronger. That's why old jewellery is longer lasting than the newer 22ct jewellery which thins out at joints and breaks within an year or two.
It is not "less strong," it is softer and more malleable, ie it scratches and bends more easily. it doesn't, of itself, break more easily; in fact more malleable might mean the very opposite.

However, the trade tries to make low-cost jewellery look bigger, and that, for the same weight, means making it thinner, That is why some of these pieces will be more fragile.

There is no particular reason that jewellery should fall apart at the joints, except for it having been badly made, or, as per above, simply too thin to realistically support the design. Precious metal solders will always contain a lesser proportion of the precious metal than the parts they are joining, because they have to melt at a lower temperature! Yes, I know this is a very simplistic statement of the science of solder alloys, but it is the essence of it.


Quote:
When you buy new jewellery, you pay a "making" charge (differs according to the complexity of the item - intricate designs can go upto 20% or more) in addition to value of the gold and other embelishments in it. So the more attractive the design the more you shell out as "making" charge.

And when you go to exchange or sell old jewellery, the jeweller values only the gold content in it. Everything else goes to the trash can - stones, enamel, sweat, dirt, grime, etc, etc. Makes sense, if you think about it.
I had a conversation with a lady from Kokotta who maintained that wastage was only charged on buying back, not on selling new gold. Is it a regional thing? It is certainly charged when buying gold jeweller here. Does that mean it could be 10% cheaper elsewhere? Or do they just call the surcharge something else?

Of course there is profit built into the system. It is necessary to pay everyone from the craftsmen to the sales chain. It is even necessary for the suppliers of metal to the trade to make a profit. Buy some gold sheet or wire, say 22ct: the price you pay will be based on 22/24ths of the day's pure-gold price, plus a little for the other metals in the alloy and the melting/casting/rolling/drawing/etc process and... a little profit of course.

Way back then, when this was my hobby, I used to have the rule-of-thumb formula for looking at the day's gold [UK] price and the newspaper, and answering the question, so what will I actually pay when I buy 9/18/22ct sheet or wire?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
They have been accepting this because gold as an asset is a distant secondary role (and only to justify the purchase to the menfolk).
The primary role is adornment, for which women usually do not bargain that well.

If asset was the primary aim of Indian women, then the sale of biscuits would've dwarfed the sale of jewellery.
I'm not Indian, so forgive me if Ihave a mistaken stereotype here, but I have been led, over the years, to understand that gold is the woman's savings account, and that they rotation of it ensures that there will always be pawn shops, as well as jewellers, in the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTeacher View Post
Somebody I know did some consulting for a jeweler (reputed nationwide). He said that mostly, it is a small scale industry; the business gives gold to clusters of small-time jewelers who do the actual work. The maximum wastage these craftsmen are allowed is, hold your breath, 1%!
That does not surprise me at all. Having never done this on an actual commercial basis, I do not know how fair it is. The amount of actually-wasted material is kept as small as possible, but there are always, as in any trade, scraps and offcuts. This is either melted and reused by the makers themselves, or sold back to the suppliers. Of course, they pay slightly less to buy scrap than to sell sheet.
Quote:
Most of the jewellery we have purchased was at 20% wastage nominal, with "I have charged you 2% less wastage sir", so 18% wastage. On top of this, there are making charges for which there is also a generous 5% discount! No wonder it is an extremely profitable business.
Yes, this is what I see as the great scam, of which few seem to be aware.
Quote:
This consultant further said that as a profession, it is entered into by boys around 10-12 years of age. The working life is only 10-12 years because of the toxic fumes they inhale while working. Many apparently go blind, become sick or disabled in their early twenties and are unable to work thereafter. He was trying to organize them into co-ops so they can have medical care and a pension when they can't work anymore.
A working life of 10-12 years for a jeweller is absurd! He should turn his attention to some basic industrial safety, such as extractor fans.

As far as I can remember, there is no reason at all to poison oneself making jewellery. Over the years that I did it as a hobby, there were several when my bench was set up in the corner of my bedroom. It did not kill me.

The process that worries me is electroplating. I see the "polishers" working from tiny cubbyhole shops, or even on the street. They do not have any protection from fumes, and, when I last looked (granted it was a while ago and might be out of date), gold plating required the use of cyanide compounds.

Quote:
I am equally guilty as anybody for buying jewellery for the wife and kid, but it seems to be tainted stuff with bad karma attached.
Not intrinsically so, but every industry has its sweatshops. You might be acquiring worse karma when you buy their clothes!
Thad E Ginathom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 15:28   #70
BHPian
 
mohammedismail's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 405
Thanked: 1,017 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRV2010 View Post
I'm sorry about the whole matter that too by a reputed jeweler. One of my relative had been in the same situation however the jeweler later argued that the ornament was fiddled at a different place before coming to him and It was not the same original piece which he had sold to her. She let it go since the amount of grams was around 3-4.
These Jewelers take Customers for granted and they are Looting customers in Broad Day Light !

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowwhat? View Post
This is quite an illuminating thread.
Some like Ganjam will give the full net value of gold and diamonds in case of an exchange, but will deduct 15% IIRC in case of a refund.
.
IIRC most of the Jewelers charge 1% for refund and Lalithaa Jewellers charge 3% which is mentioned in the Bill itself !

Coming back to the topic. I have sent them an email yesterday telling them about the issue. I'm yet to receive any response from them.
mohammedismail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 15:49   #71
BHPian
 
iamswift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Madras
Posts: 178
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I had a conversation with a lady from Kokotta who maintained that wastage was only charged on buying back, not on selling new gold. Is it a regional thing?
Last weekend there was an interview in Thanthi TV with Chennai Jewelry shops association president or someone of that sort. That was quite an eye-opener. The term "wastage" used in south of India is misnomer. It does not mean any wastage of gold while making a piece, rather it is the overheads a jeweler incur. So a same piece of jewel similar in all aspects might have different "wastage" rates across shops. He also informed about changing this term so as not to confuse the buyers but changes are very slow.
This term is not used in North India - or as you rightly said, there might be wastage while buying back as the jewels might have diminished over the years of usage.

The interview should be available in youtube - but will be in Tamil.

Coming to the point of purity, almost all jewelers in Chennai sell lesser purity jewels even though they term it as 22 carat. You can see atleast 0.5 to 1 carat lesser purity. Government is Hallmark certifying jewels (just for Rs.20 per piece) that meet the quality standard and you can see advertisements too on shops selling hallmark jewels; but if visit the shops you will either be discouraged to even look at the hallmark certified jewels; also there will be too few options to select from and you end up moving to other sections.

Tanishq Jewelers (TATA group of company) has Karatmeter which tests the purity of gold. Any Jewel you buy can always be tested in that to show you the purity. I had tested purity of gold jewel bought from GRT, another reputed shop, and showing the purity as around 21 carat instead of the required 22.

Last edited by iamswift : 16th February 2016 at 16:03.
iamswift is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 16:19   #72
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Thad E Ginathom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 7,608
Thanked: 6,692 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamswift View Post
Last weekend there was an interview in Thanthi TV with Chennai Jewelry shops association president or someone of that sort. That was quite an eye-opener. The term "wastage" used in south of India is misnomer. It does not mean any wastage of gold while making a piece, rather it is the overheads a jeweler incur. So a same piece of jewel similar in all aspects might have different "wastage" rates across shops. He also informed about changing this term so as not to confuse the buyers but changes are very slow.
This term is not used in North India - or as you rightly said, there might be wastage while buying back as the jewels might have diminished over the years of usage.
So, if they termed it as it is, then I might welcome it as transparent instead of damning it as a scam! . Of course, they have a right to their margin, as does every business --- but we have to see what is the actual total difference between the commodity-market price of the gold, and the end price as sold in the shop.

Thank you very much for this piece of clarity, and I also know how to answer when this topic arises on other forums with northerners.

It would be good to see change, but I don't know that we can only blame the trade if it is slow: the customers, too, will be used to the nomenclature, and may respond with suspicion if it is changed!
Thad E Ginathom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2016, 18:52   #73
Senior - BHPian
 
download2live's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,101
Thanked: 387 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

I have an interesting anecdote to share. Was told about this by my friend. Apparently in some part of Rajasthan there are gold jewelers who sell tainted/impure gold but charge as if nothing is wrong with the stuff they sell. The real kicker is that if you take the receipt and try to sell it back to another jeweler from the same community, then he will actually pay you as per the carats written on the receipt. Knowing fully well that actually the gold is now where as pure as written on receipt.
download2live is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2016, 17:04   #74
BHPian
 
Raja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 414
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

If I wanted to sell gold, can anyone recommend a trustworthy Goldsmith in Pune?
Thanks in advance.
Raja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2016, 20:37   #75
BHPian
 
raghu.t.k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 446
Thanked: 161 Times
Default Re: The Gold Thread

Interesting topic. On one occasion I sold a chain brought from Dubai airport, I was paid less stating that it was from Dubai and would not get the market rate!!
raghu.t.k is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Investing in Gold ETF or physical Gold - Which is better amitk26 Shifting gears 38 19th May 2017 11:48
10000 km report - Fiat Siena 1.6 ELX (Royal Gold) paharino1 Long-Term Ownership Reviews 25 13th July 2012 14:30
NEW Safari 2.2 VVT Ex-4x4 Light Gold > The joy, the pleasure & the pain !! jaysmokesleaves Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 64 26th November 2010 19:47
Hyundai Sonata Gold for Sale hrag Shifting gears 4 23rd March 2006 12:50
gold plating emblems filcord Modifications & Accessories 5 16th December 2005 23:51


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:32.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks