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Old 31st May 2009, 23:04   #76
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Originally Posted by rsjaurr View Post
I completely agree with you Anmol.Few posts here have also shocked me more than the attacks.

I dont have anything else to say what Anmol and few other have said.




This is what few members are suggesting us to keep our mouth shut because something like that also happens here as well.
very very well said bro,i have been emphasizing on the same point again and again but people are just bent to criticize their own country rather than standing uo against whats happening.
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Old 31st May 2009, 23:19   #77
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Takumi-san, thanks for clearing the murky water this thread has become. Most of the time opportunistic crime gets painted as racist crime depending on the color of the victim. I have lived pretty to close to high-crime areas (Passaic county) in NJ, but I was always very careful not to be in the wrong place in the wrong time. Driving through Passaic or Paterson town in the nights is a scary experience, let alone walking.

In societies that are highly multi-cultural, bad elements would target anybody who is unlike them. The only time I have experienced open racism from normal people was just after the 9/11 WTC attack. It was pretty dicey then, even the grocery store checkout ladies were looking at me suspiciously. Unfortunately for us, most 9/11 hijackers looked like Indians.
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Old 1st June 2009, 00:27   #78
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Racism in any form is to be condemned. I'm sure all here agree on that. It is the reaction to such incidents which is differentiating. To each his own. I believe this matter is to be handled by law and the respective governments. There will always be bad apples in every society. They need to be identified and controlled before things go out of hand. Justice needs to be done here, there is no doubt about this.

Having lived in India only, i cannot comment on how Indians are treated abroad. But keep in mind one thing, all the radical regional groups here in India are saying the same things the local people of various countries are saying - other people come to our land, take away our jobs, don't learn our language, stick to their own groups, etc. Sounds familiar? You want to judge others in other country, fine, it is your wish and opinion. But do use the same yardstick for what happens here and condemn such acts are well. I'm an Indian and proud to be one. I do not think i should become nationalistic in selective times and occasions only.
At the end of the day, no society is perfect. If you want to change the world, be the change. And change has to start at home.

Last edited by DriverR : 1st June 2009 at 00:39.
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Old 1st June 2009, 03:43   #79
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Originally Posted by mustang89 View Post
but people are just bent to criticize their own country rather than standing uo against whats happening.
So if posting on an online forum and resolving to boycott oz products is your idea of "standing up", the world would be a better place with so little effort. The only person on this thread who can legitimately claim to have stood up for the oz cause is Takumi-San. He got up from his a#$ and took part in a Peace March thru Melbourne.

Some of us were merely pointing out the futility of pointing fingers at an entire nation and boycotting their products. If you want to continue "standing up" like that, be my guest.
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Old 1st June 2009, 04:26   #80
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Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
The indifference to this incident on this forum is SHOCKING. This forum is a very good example showcasing the fact that Indians are the most self critical and self doubting people in the world.

We don't have unity, we will never stand up for anyone and will accept the beating at the hands of the noble white man.

To be very honest, this forum have angered me far more than the attack itself.

Kindly see the following video.



And also remember that around 20 attacks on Indians have taken place in last one month alone. Many Indians have died already. We are already called "dot heads" "curry muncher" "apu" etc etc.

Ancestors of the same people took away children from the aboriginals and sent them to Church run orphanages where the aboriginal children were sexually exploited, this was done because the Christian white man thought that the aboriginals cannot take care of their own children.

Yet look at the indifference shown by people like Sam Kapasi.

If this would have happened to some Chinese, this would have been in the weekly edition of newsweek-time-economist. But because of lack of guts to stand up for ourself, this will soon be forgotten till next attack will happen. Remember what the Chinese did to CarreFour when the Olympic torch bearers were attacked in France by Tibetans.

It is because of this attitude we Indians are considered pushover, remember how the Australian PM turned us down when we requested the sale of Uranium the reason they gave for this was non-proliferation, yet this doesn't stop Australia to sell Uranium to China.

When the evangelical missionaries were burnt alive in Orissa by tribal, it was a huge news all over, the Australians were livid with anger . The western press was condemning the Hindus society as a whole. The NGOs were protesting. Our own media was putting the story on the front page.

When the "racial gesture/ ape / maaki" incident happened with Andrew Symonds, again Australians made sure it came to notice and it was on their front page.

Yet when Indians are stabbed to death, they are attacked in trains and are looted and are called curry muncher-dot_heads etc etc, we Indians rather than standing up for our brethren are in fact giving the benefit of doubt to the noble white man of Australia.

Explain to me what is not racist about those white boys beating the Indian in the train ?

Explain to me what does Indian skin tones and skin cream have anything to do with race-ism ?

India have nothing to lose by boycotting these Australians, because most of the trade we do involves raw materials and tourism(also educational tourism).

China taught France a good lesson and showed that they have balls, when are we going to grow our own pair ?

But seems some of us are quite happy with our pushover personality.

No wonder that Kasab and his pals were confident on taking on a city of 14 million people.
What makes you say that the guy getting beaten up in that video is an Indian? I can't make that out. How can you? The video could have anything written next to it.

Last edited by straight6 : 1st June 2009 at 04:31.
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Old 1st June 2009, 04:57   #81
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this news was not on the UK news channels (BBC/SKY). came to find out through Indian news channels.
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Old 1st June 2009, 10:42   #82
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Originally Posted by zibby View Post
this news was not on the UK news channels (BBC/SKY). came to find out through Indian news channels.
I was in UK when India was playing a series in Australia. Whenever India won a match, there was never a mention of it on any channel in UK. They say the Aussies are rivals, but when playing someone else they're the best buddies. In all issues they always support each other.
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Old 1st June 2009, 11:18   #83
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Originally Posted by pedrolourenco View Post
I was in UK when India was playing a series in Australia. Whenever India won a match, there was never a mention of it on any channel in UK. They say the Aussies are rivals, but when playing someone else they're the best buddies. In all issues they always support each other.
You need to relax a bit here. We all know and feel what happened is a crime and outrageous but we should try to keep things in perspective.
In this world there exists a dislike for people who are different than what we belong to and this feeling is universal. The difference is only in degree of how it is felt.

This world should become a better place so lets start to be that change for a change
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Old 1st June 2009, 11:19   #84
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
The only time I have experienced open racism from normal people was just after the 9/11 WTC attack. It was pretty dicey then, even the grocery store checkout ladies were looking at me suspiciously. Unfortunately for us, most 9/11 hijackers looked like Indians.
Racisim or Violence of ANY forum cannot/should not be condoned. But lets put the cause of some of this in perspective.

There are some countries and some places (states or counties) that have stronger racist tendencies than others. Australia (since the 60s and 70s) or even some areas of NJ have been known to always have have stronger racist (colour based) undertones than say Silicon Valley.

At one time in the early 90s there was a short Neo-Nazi movement in Germany. During this time my friends warned me to careful in certain neighbourhoods/localities especially if I was alone, at night, on a train more so becuase I could be mistaken for a Turk. As a person who LOOKS different you need to aware of this and act accordingly.

A buxom, blonde german girl (friend of a friend) decided to visit India. She wore (what she could/would normally safely wear on a hot summer day in Germany) a rather loose fitting thin top and skirt on a public bus in Delhi. I got a call from my german friend (from germany) that her friend had called her crying that she had been pinched and prodded till she hurt and was in mental shock. I flew to Delhi to the hotel where this girl was staying. After a while she revealed what she was wearing and I smiled. The poor girl had no idea! She was in such a metal state that we had to make arrangements to fly her back home the following day. What she must have reported back home I dont know. I told my german friend what I saw and she too understood. Having visited India many times she knew.

As world citizens (we - Indians, Germans, Chinese, Americans, etc..) have to be aware of our surroudings. Wearing a thin, loose, sleeveless top and short skirt in a Delhi bus is as mad as walking through Bedford-Stuyvesant or Hells Kitchen (9th-11th Av. 34th-59th street) at 11pm alone (in the 70s and early 80s). Some times you just cant help it (like the student who had his house fire bombed) but if you can you should.

On a larger scale we need to realise that no community likes to blame itself. I live in Maharashtra (Mumbai) and even here there are certain sections of society who believe that outsiders are taking their jobs. I assume the same applies to Australia, UK, US, etc.

Still like I said before racisim or violence of ANY forum cannot/should not be condoned. We need to move governments (local and central) to recognise this. Media reports claim that Indians and a few Australians in Australia are also takng up this challenge (in Australia).

I can only suppose the cause is the pent up frustrations of less educated people. We cant call the people who beat up the Indians or raped Scarlett educated can we?

Last edited by navin : 1st June 2009 at 11:39.
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Old 1st June 2009, 11:55   #85
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At the outset I want to say this:

The reason we talk about deficencies in India is because the best way to accept others with their faults is to hold up a mirror to yourself first. Or to quote the wise J.C. - Let him who has not sinned, cast the first stone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
The indifference to this incident on this forum is SHOCKING. This forum is a very good example showcasing the fact that Indians are the most self critical and self doubting people in the world.
Actually this forum is an excellent example of how Indians are both tolerant and free-thinking people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anmol2k4 View Post
Yet look at the indifference shown by people like Sam Kapasi.
You may read my post as indifference. My posts are a simple clear and precise thought. I disagree with the reason for starting this thread.

Let us first analyse the original post before we proceed.

First:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrolourenco View Post
Though I was lucky not to be assaulted, I faced verbal abuse and dicrimination at the Police station.
What gives us the right to be shocked by that? Are we as shocked by it when it happens in our own country?

Now my main point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrolourenco View Post
As a token way of protesting the treatment meted out to me in UK, I started boycotting all British and Australian products. Let us all join in this protest to show solidarity to our Indian brothers and sisters all over the world who are being vicitimised just because they are Indians.
I find this disturbing. This display of imaginary solidarity. The thought of an imaginary boycott/lynch mob against a country and its products. What scares me is the personal mental satisfaction derived from the assumption of having achieved something for your Indian brothers and sisters by chatting about it on an automotive forum.
What scares me more is the resentment towards people that do not agree with that point-of-view.

If you go to Nizamuddin station in New Delhi - you will find the most delicious assortment of North-West frontier cuisine on the street. Many nations to our North-West declared a boycott of all American food, including Coca-Cola. At Nizamuddin you can buy a bright green fizzy drink called Pakola. You guessed it, Pakistani Cola.
The drink is alright, if you can handle drinking something that looks like automotive radiator coolant with gas in it.

Sometimes I wonder to what extent Pakola has affected Americans and/or changed their way of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by various
indifference, when it happens to your loved ones, apathetic
In 2001 I lost 2 members of my family. My cousins. Indians, A boy and a girl, brother and sister, roommates - teenagers studying in the USA. They were stabbed to death in their University.
You may have read about it in the newpaper.
Did that news interest you more than cricket? Do you remember reading about it in 2001? I doubt it. It was a great loss to my family.

Should my family and I now hate Obama and the US for this act? I don't. Because the people that did that act were racists and ignorant and pathetic excuses for humans. Not the nation they came from.

What will you do if you decide to boycott all American products someday? The processor in the computer that you are using to read this post is American. How will you call for solidarity then?


I refuse to club an entire nation and hold them collectively responsible for the actions of an uneducated/uncultured few, regardless of the country.

Quote:
Explain to me what does Indian skin tones and skin cream have anything to do with race-ism ?
I'd be happy to.
Most racism is about skin colour. Because everyone pretty much has 2 arms and legs, the usual members and red blood.


I will repeat the gist of my post for the last time.

I see racism as a crime against all humanity, not just India. I detest and abhor it.
I do not see Indians as oppressed people because I believe only the weak get oppressed and I don't think Indians are weak anymore. We took care of our last weakness in August 1947.
We are a strong and progressive nation with a lot of emphasis on education. Indians are street-smart, well-educated, hard-working and intelligent. Most Indians do well outside India because it is easy for an Indian to shine when placed against the rest of the world.

We see a lot of Indians being ill-treated around the world. We also see a lot of Indians in highly educated and respectable and influential positions around the world.

This possibly may be because there are a LOT of Indians in this world to see.

The incident in Austalia was not acceptable. Any incident of cruelty that is based on external appearances is a crime against all of humanity. Any such incident, aginst Indians, Chinese, Africans and anyone else that looks different from the rest of the world is awful and should not be tolerated.

I hate racism and really wish I could make a difference to all the racism crimes of this world.

But to stand up and howl for public support because we are Indians and Indians are being oh-so ill treated by this awful world (read:sarcasm) is something I am not willing to do.

I find it weak and ineffective.



Forigive my long post. Please feel free to disagree with anything I may have said, I understand and respect that - as long as you have understood my points.

Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 1st June 2009 at 12:11.
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Old 1st June 2009, 11:59   #86
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Everyone from every country in the world gets stabbed. It may not be right, but I'm not going to stop drinking Coca Cola because of it. I have no time, I need to continue being Indian and progress as much as I can without worrying about uneducated, narrow-minded and uncultured racists.
And I'm not going to stand up and howl about how badly we're treated because it makes us look weak (which we most certainly are NOT)
I am assuming that you have never been at the recieving end of a racist insult or attack. If you have, and yet these are your viws, then I need to learn a few lessons from you in equnimity, tolerance and patience.

I was at the recieving end of racist behaviour on two occassions in the early 90s in the UK. In the first case, I simply tried to ignore it, which only emboldened the bullies, since i was feeding their stereotype of a passive submissive Indian. what was worse was that I could not look at myself in the mirror out of shame and disgust at my cowardice.

the second time the incident repeated (with the same two bullies/ rasict scum) they got the thrasing of their life at my hands including a couple of broken bones and i am sure they would have changed their opinion about Indians from then on. more importantly, I could walk with my head held high once again.

Last edited by himanshugoswami : 1st June 2009 at 12:01.
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Old 1st June 2009, 12:08   #87
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First of all what happend in Australia is condemnable.

But I dont think we would get the same reactions for a Brit teenager raped and killed in Goa by a couple of boys or a German Lady raped by a minister`s son.
These guys never got justice and there was no mention of racism that time.


The main questions is why do so many people go to study or work abroad? The answer lies in the fact that it is we Indians who are the most racist by having aur quota systems compelling these people to go abroad.

We open a newspaper today and all you get is people getting killed, raped, and robbed. But since it is done in India it doesnt get that much publicity. But since the recent attacks have been done by a foreigner is what is making the news.
The movies "Slumdog Millionaire", made people angry for some outsider coming and showing us the reality.

Quote:
Guys realise one thing, these attacks might just be some punks who are playing gangster but the problem is the police stations fail to accept it when Indian students report it. If thats not racism of the highest order then I don't know what is.
Try filing a complaint against an influential guy in India.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pedrolourenco View Post
As a token way of protesting the treatment meted out to me in UK, I started boycotting all British and Australian products. Let us all join in this protest to show solidarity to our Indian brothers and sisters all over the world who are being vicitimised just because they are Indians.

So if the European countries & the US start doing the same for the treatment we met out to foreigner, India would not be the IT Giant it is today.


I pray for the recovery of all those hurt in the incident.
I do not wish to offend anyone, and if I did, apologies for the same.

Abhishek
Fate is two faced, It depends on you to decide which side to look at.
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Old 1st June 2009, 12:09   #88
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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
I am assuming that you have never been at the recieving end of a racist insult or attack. If you have, and yet these are your viws, then I need to learn a few lessons from you in equnimity, tolerance and patience.
I have seen racism, Himanshu. More than you can imagine.
I do not accept it and I do not condone or forgive the people that are racists and bigots.

My singular point is that if I blame the entire nation and its people for the behaviour of a few then I am no better than they are.

You thrashed the people that treated you badly. Whether I agree with the thrashing or not - More power to you. I respect that because you handled the people that caused the situation. How you handled it was your own decision. I am happy that you sorted it and regained your self-respect. It was between you and the racists. Not all the people of their country.

If you came to Team-BHP after that incident in the UK - requesting everyone to stop buying delicious Tiffany's Toffees instead, you would have not gained my respect.

Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 1st June 2009 at 12:16.
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Old 1st June 2009, 14:17   #89
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Applying a circular logic wont help here. Its not a solution. Like we did to them, no action from the govt.; they did it to us.... so how can we expect some legal action?

Leave it to the governments to interact and take suitable action.

Regards to racism, its like a extreme form of ego and superiority complex..... how many times has a guy/girl been teased in college or work placed based on complexion, weight, caste, work class, region, poor social skills/communication skills ??? We have all seen this and see it daily in milder forms.

At my work place, a nepali qc guy pointed out some mistakes in the document and he was refered to as "that gurkha".
Muslims refered to as sabhi or turka.
I dont know why guys pay so much attention to what girls do/wear/talk etc at the work place or college. (an alternate form of racism). the comments passed sometimes are unwarranted.

Its very disppointing.
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Old 1st June 2009, 14:34   #90
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This is one classic example of how Indians can be manipulated.
Just one injured/dead person is like a flame and throw in some suspicion and doubt to act as petrol and viola! step back and watch the people go literally mad and kill and maim their fellow citizens and burn themselves and others.

This is how we have been ruled so far ...
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