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Old 10th June 2009, 11:52   #76
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Another plane goes missing,

13 feared killed in IAF plane crash near China border - India - The Times of India
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Old 10th June 2009, 11:55   #77
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the pictures must be hoax - the sky looks sunny - no sign of storm clouds. that is why i didn't upload them.
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Old 10th June 2009, 14:48   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram View Post

Ice build-up on the pitot tube would cause the measured pressure differential to be low (not high!).
This would be interpreted as too low a speed and the pilots or autothrottle would try to compensate by increasing the speed. This could exceed the max safe speed for the turbulence inside the violent storm cloud.
very well put across ram.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
just curious. Up in the air, surrounded by clouds, do pilots have any sense of what speed they are traveling at, so they can override the autothrottle?
no.in IMC(instrument meterological conditions) you cant really tell the airspeed or flight attitude of the airplane accurately without relying on the flight insturments.


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Old 10th June 2009, 16:37   #79
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I was sitting with a dear friend who is into the air defence business. We spoke at length regards what has or could have happened and have formed a sort ofconspiracy theory.

The air craft could be the victim of a terrorist attack. No mayday signal, no news, nothing. The black box is under 21,000 feet of water. No distress signal can be located as the black boxes operate on a 4 volt battery which would die down in around 24- 30 days. The beacon can be received within 1000 feet but that means someone or something will have to be at 20,000 feet to receive the signal.

Recall what happened to Dr, Homi Bhabha. IF he would not have been dead, Iindia would have been Nuclear capable by the 60's.

Now another piece of news, travelling in this aircraft, was the last king of Brazil who himself renounced his monarchy for democracy.

Do the math. Was the plane the target of was someone sitting in it? Was it a terrorist attack, as if were not, then what was it. Easy to speculate, difficult to tell. If the black box is not found within 24-30 days, there are no chances of it being ever found.
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Old 10th June 2009, 16:46   #80
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The basic idea behind a terrorist attack is to make money.
The only way that is acheived is by doing something spectacular.
Like killing children and women shopping in a market on a festival eve or having chaat or maybe enjoying an evening at a park.

The whole business of mindless killing that is called terrorism is a huge money making machine.

For that to happen, the terrorist organisation needs to get its name published.
That is why you have these groups falling over eachother to claim responsibility for killing completely innocent people.


This particular plane crash while very sad does not appear to be the handiwork of terrorists.

Plus its French. I don't think France is in the middle of a terror map. The Algerian conflict is quite old and Vietnam long forgotten.

And also an assassination attempt on one person killing so many. Doubt that.
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Old 10th June 2009, 17:00   #81
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover View Post
There are a couple of photos doing the rounds in the internet showing a plane being ripped apart & people flying around & out. Anyone got that ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by planet_rocker View Post
@ E_L - got it in the morning. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky_Balboa View Post
Those pics were hoax, guyz....
What??? Those pics a hoax???
I have the link to the actual video. I guess those guys got the details mixed up, its not pics, it is a video clip.....

Have a look. Here!

Do concentrate after 00.20 sec
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Old 10th June 2009, 17:50   #82
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Default Instruments, Autothrottles and need for precise speed measurement

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
just curious. Up in the air, surrounded by clouds, do pilots have any sense of what speed they are traveling at, so they can override the autothrottle?
To answer your question, there is no sense of speed other than what is indicated by instruments.

Instruments
Four instruments in the basic "T"
  1. Airspeed Indicator,
  2. Artificial Horizon,
  3. Altimeter and
  4. Gyro-Compass;
    and additionally
  5. the Turn-and-Bank indicator and
  6. Vertical speed Indicator.
The 1958-1979 Boeing 707 was the world's first commercially successful jet airliner. Air-India had eleven of them. Six with the Rolls-Royce Conway engines and five with Pratt & Whitney JT3D turbofans.

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Boeing 707 basic flight panel


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Boeing 707 cockpit


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Boeing 707 cockpit with my annotations

Overhead panel contains ignition and engine start switches, fire extinguisher switches, HF radios, alternate flap control, emergency exit lights, rain repellent, and exterior lights, compass and vertical gyro transfer functions, Mach Trim test, Fuel filter heaters, Winshield wipers, engine de-icing, hydraulic pumps, Heating switches for pitots and alpha vanes and Airconditioning & Gasper fan switches for Gyro motor and caging for gyrocompass and vertical gyro for bank angle and pitch attitude.

The 1974-2007 Airbus A300 and 1983-2007 A310, had
CRT monitors for altitude and navigation info display.
However they still used traditional mechanical gauges with needles and painted graduations,
for airspeed, altitude and vertical speed.

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Cockpit of Airbus A300


With the 1988-onwards Airbus A320, and following that the 1993-onwards Airbus 340, 1994-onwards 330 and 2007-onwards 380 they all have full "glass cockpits".

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Full glass cockpit of Airbus A330.
Note sidesticks and absence of control yokes.

All mechanical gauges and warning lights are replaced by interchangeable
general purpose CRT/LCD computer screens that display whatever the EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrument System computer) wants to display via a graphics card.

Autothrottle
Autothrottle on the Airbus is a feedback control system that can be in fixed SPEED mode or fixed THRUST mode.

In SPEED mode, the computer tries to maintain the speed to the pilot-ordered or autopilot-ordered speed, but still within the safety envelope of the aircraft.

In THRUST mode, Autothrottle maintains a fixed power setting
(what we car people call BHP, for a jet engine it's static thrust measured in kiloNewtons or pounds).

The throttles have six detent positions specified according to flight phase:
  1. TOGA (Take-Off/Go Around) power,
  2. FLX/MCT (Max. Continuous Thrust) power,
  3. CLB (Climb) power,
  4. IDLE power,[for flaring when landing]
  5. REV IDLE (reverse idle) power,
  6. MAX REV (max. reverse thrust) power
While the throttle is in the CLB detent and Auto thrust is active, the Airbus's FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Ctrl) can control the thrust from FLX/MCT to IDLE. The throttles are linked to the FADEC by electronic signals, not by cables unlike in Boeings.
This reduces weight (similar to fly-by-wire controls). Airbus also has brake by wire.

You order the CLB airspeed, and the autothrottle adjusts to maintain it.
Pilot workload greatly decreases, while fuel efficiency and performance improve because of the computerized precision power management.

However to work, Autothrottle needs precise speed measurement.

If the pressure pitots are choked and send questionable speed info, everything can quickly go awry.

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Old 10th June 2009, 17:59   #83
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Spinner, I fail to see the humour in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post
The basic idea behind a terrorist attack is to make money.
The only way that is acheived is by doing something spectacular.
Like killing children and women shopping in a market on a festival eve or having chaat or maybe enjoying an evening at a park.

The whole business of mindless killing that is called terrorism is a huge money making machine.

For that to happen, the terrorist organisation needs to get its name published.
That is why you have these groups falling over eachother to claim responsibility for killing completely innocent people.
Agreed but not money made is not apparent. I do not know about any money being made out of the twin tower attacks or so many attacks related to Ireland.

I do not know what money was made by the Marriot bombing in Islamabad or the Pearl Continental bombing in Peshawar. Money lost, yes but apparent money making is not really and clearly visible in the above or most cases.

Im not saying what i say is true, it could not be terrorist attack after all but how can we be sure it was not? I did say it was, my conspiracy theory.

Quote:
This particular plane crash while very sad does not appear to be the handiwork of terrorists.
cannot say it was and cannot say it wasn't either.

Quote:
Plus its French. I don't think France is in the middle of a terror map. The Algerian conflict is quite old and Vietnam long forgotten.

Air India was not in the terrorist map when the air crash with Dr. Homi Bhabha too place. Anyone in the industry knows this as an open secret. As i said had he been alive, India would be nuclear capable in the 60's. It is only very recent that mountain climbers in the region of the crash have recovered preserved bodies and debris believed to be of the famous Homi Bhabha air crash in ice.

The link below and excerpts from it in italics, posted below are a startling revelation of what could have happened.

Was Homi Bhabha’s plane hit by Italian aircraft? Indian Aviation

"On January 24, 1966, Air India flight AI 101 Mumbai-Paris crashed on Mont Blanc, the highest peak in the Alps on the border of France and Italy.
Amongst the 117 passengers killed was noted Nuclear Scientist Dr Homi Jehangir Bhabha. Although the world believes the aircraft crashed, Daniel Roche, an aviation enthusiast who has spent five years researching and collecting the remnants of the plane from Mont Blanc, says the plane was hit by an Italian military aircraft or a missile.
Roche, 57, a property consultant in Lyon, France, has collected about three tonne of parts of the two Air India (AI) aircraft that crashed into the glacier of Mont Blanc, the highest peak in the Alps (4,810 m or 15,781 feet).
One was the propeller aircraft Malabar Princess, which crashed in 1950, and the other was the Boeing 707 Kanchenjunga. “While the parts of Malabar Princess were found around one spot, those of Kanchenjunga were found scattered around a 25 km range,” he says.
Roche says that while the Malabar Princess is a clear case of a crash, the Kanchenjunga was hit by an Italian military aircraft or a missile. “If Kanchenjunga had crashed in the mountain, there should have been huge fire and explosion as there was 41,000 tonne of fuel in the aircraft, but that was not the case. Just two minutes before the crash, the aircraft was at 6,000 feet above the ground. According to me, it collided with an Italian aircraft and as there is very little oxygen at that height, there was no combustion that could cause an explosion,” he says.
During his excavations in the Mont Blanc glacier, he found the black box of the aircraft, the pilot’s manual, a camera, jewellery, and other belongings of the passengers that had over the last 40 years sunk some 8 km into the glacier and descended down the mountainside.
Talking about his suspicion of the Italian plane, he says, “There were news reports that time about an Italian aircraft that had gone missing the same day. There are chances that it collided into the aircraft.I managed to find a fuel tank of the Italian plane with inscriptions on it,” he says.
“I do not know whether it was a conspiracy or what as Bhabha was going to give India its first nuclear bomb, which the nuclear powers of that time did not want,” he says. “..I feel that it is my duty to tell the truth to the world based on the evidence. If the Indian government wants, I am ready to hand over the documents and the belongings of the passengers to them…” he says"


no one was able to locate a final determination as to the cause of the crash.

Quote:
And also an assassination attempt on one person killing so many. Doubt that.

as you said earlier my friend, there are no explanation to a terrorist exercise. IF the Air India crash were a terrorist act, it was not made out to be. There were not many organisations involved. But what if some nation is behind it.

Many believe that princes Diana's accident was an assasination. Who owned up? Noone? Was it true? We dont know.

The above if true would be self explanatory.

P.S.: I am not trying to influence anybody here. The above is entirely how i tend to look at the issue and i shall stick to it.

It is my personal outlook which someone may or may not choose to follow. I am trying to project an alternative outlook than an easily passed of "error theory". I am just trying to look under the covers, if they exist.
I respect that view as i would expect my view to be respected.

Last edited by V-16 : 10th June 2009 at 18:04.
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Old 10th June 2009, 18:13   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post

Agreed but not money made is not apparent. I do not know about any money being made out of the twin tower attacks or so many attacks related to Ireland.

I do not know what money was made by the Marriot bombing in Islamabad or the Pearl Continental bombing in Peshawar. Money lost, yes but apparent money making is not really and clearly visible in the above or most cases.

Im not saying what i say is true, it could not be terrorist attack after all but how can we be sure it was not? I did say it was, my conspiracy theory.
There is someone who wants to destroy a culture/ nation/ religon/ anything since these psycho's simply want to destroy.

There is someone who has no future/ job/ life/ ideals worth anything.

Enter middle man.
Find the young person and keep indoctrinating a feeling of hatred against an entity.
Find the psycho who wants to destroy the entity without any risk of personal harm.

This broker makes money. Quite a lot of it.
Fools die, but with them take the lives of innocents.

That is the biggest difference between these mongers of hate and people like Mahatma, Martin Luther King etc.

They wanted people to look within themselves and find the best they had.
To understand the beauty of love and tolerance. And use that to not just make your life better but that of everyone around you.

Sorry for going OT. But I just wanted to put my POV on terrorism and its actual meaning "merchants of death".
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Old 10th June 2009, 18:26   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post

And also an assassination attempt on one person killing so many. Doubt that.
this is what makes it very easy to portray it as an accident. to claim insurance, to claim power, whatever.
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Old 10th June 2009, 18:43   #86
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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Spinner, I fail to see the humour in this case.
Hmm.. a frail attempt. I must say.

But the point is, those pics are from the television serial, LOST. And not captured by that brave photographer as said in the email that has been doing rounds on the internet.
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Old 10th June 2009, 18:48   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
just curious. Up in the air, surrounded by clouds, do pilots have any sense of what speed they are traveling at, so they can override the autothrottle?
Not accurate, but rough sense of Speed can be obtained from GPS. And I am not sure if plance has data link to ground for sending failure alerts, why can't it send GPS logs as well.
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Old 10th June 2009, 19:27   #88
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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Not accurate, but rough sense of Speed can be obtained from GPS. And I am not sure if plance has data link to ground for sending failure alerts, why can't it send GPS logs as well.
GPS calculates Ground Speed NOT Airspeed.i dont understand the latter part of your question.what GPS logs are you talking about ?

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Old 10th June 2009, 21:02   #89
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I dont see any reason why a GPS cannot be calibrated to measure altitude and airspeed.
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Old 10th June 2009, 22:33   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I dont see any reason why a GPS cannot be calibrated to measure altitude and airspeed.
GPS can measure altitude.GPS need 3 satellites to produce a fix.for altitude(3D fix) it need 4 satellites..it however cannot measure airspeed, only groundspeed.


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