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Old 11th March 2014, 20:06   #106
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

Looks like the video was moved to the Malaysian airline post because of the mention of it. Anyways, here is the Air Crash Investigations video of the Air France Flight incase you missed it:

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Old 11th March 2014, 22:53   #107
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

Just watched the full video and to be honest I am a little scared. To me it looked liked some serious error on the parts of the Pilots. I know being a Doctor, there are instances where people unfamiliar to the trade feel it was an error on our part but in reality things are much more complicated. Similar example applies here and by the video it looks the Pilots were at a lot of fault although I am sure the real scenario would have been much more complicated. Have to take a small flight day after and this video is going to torment me for sure :(.
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Old 12th March 2014, 08:02   #108
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Just watched the full video and to be honest I am a little scared. To me it looked liked some serious error on the parts of the Pilots. I know being a Doctor, there are instances where people unfamiliar to the trade feel it was an error on our part but in reality things are much more complicated. Similar example applies here and by the video it looks the Pilots were at a lot of fault although I am sure the real scenario would have been much more complicated. Have to take a small flight day after and this video is going to torment me for sure :(.
Doc, this was indeed a pilot error, as when equipment started malfunctioning the Pilots did not take control of the aircraft. I remember reading somewhere, the pilots conversation from the CVR, they were baffled and clueless. They ignored the terrain warnings and were gaping at the instruments rather than taking control of the aircraft.

I guess it is very easy for us to comment on the happenings and to keep speculating, but in the crisis mode, the most important thing is to fly by hand and not rely on automation.

Intoday's world the Pilot's HANDS ON flying is hardly 3+3 minutes during take off and landing, as everything else is on Autopilot.
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Old 12th March 2014, 08:17   #109
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Originally Posted by shivshanker View Post
Doc, this was indeed a pilot error, as when equipment started malfunctioning the Pilots did not take control of the aircraft. I remember reading somewhere, the pilots conversation from the CVR, they were baffled and clueless. They ignored the terrain warnings and were gaping at the instruments rather than taking control of the aircraft.



I guess it is very easy for us to comment on the happenings and to keep speculating, but in the crisis mode, the most important thing is to fly by hand and not rely on automation.



Intoday's world the Pilot's HANDS ON flying is hardly 3+3 minutes during take off and landing, as everything else is on Autopilot.

Actually, the AF pilot was hand flying the aircraft, all the way into the sea! They misinterpreted the readings from instruments and took the wrong actions.
There has been a lot of debate recently on commercial pilot hand flying skills. Partly, because of the AF and more recent accidents as well. Automation has made, amongst other factors, flying incredibly safe. However, when the automation fails, or is misunderstood, the fall back will be hand flying.

I was reading an article the other day in an aviation magazine. A retired (Concorde) pilot was saying: if anything happened the first thing to do was to disconnect the autopilot and go manual. These days whenever something happens, the first course of action is to switch to autopilot. Its a good illustration on how technology has taken over. Its also true that autopilots are incredibly good at flying the plane. If there are problems, having the autopilot on, greatly reduces pilots workload so he/she can concentrate on for instance trouble shooting. But as AF incident showed there comes a time when nothing else then stick and rudder skills will save the day.

Jeroen
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Old 12th March 2014, 08:42   #110
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

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Actually, the AF pilot was hand flying the aircraft, all the way into the sea! They misinterpreted the readings from instruments and took the wrong actions.

Jeroen
@Jeroen, thanks for correcting me.

With the blocked Pitot tubes the pilots thought that they are climbing and also that the speed is dropping. In this case would I continue with the Climb or try and gain lift over the wings by increasing speed.?

What I cannot understand is that when the Stall warnings were sounding why were both the pilots having the nose up.?

My understanding of the problem was that when the icing started the Autopilot started the ascent which caused the speed to drop. But based on your feedback yes the Autopilot disconnected first.
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Old 12th March 2014, 08:56   #111
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

I have a small doubt. As a passenger when the plane descends in mid air during landing, you always tend to feel those butterflies in your stomach ( probably due to those gravity laws). I have always attributed this to a sudden descent. Now in case of this AF flight, the video says that the plane was literally falling down with the speed of around 10-15k feet per minute. With such a rapid fall, didn't the passengers/crew/Pilots perceive the fall due to the same effect on there bodies?

Edit: Also pardon me for my ignorance but I read in this AF incident as well as the current MH incident that the zone where the accident took place was outside radar coverage. Now I am not aware of the facts here but to a layman like me it sounds odd that in today's age where we have probes going and sending us pictures from MARS, we still have these blind spots w.r.t. to commercial flights? Is there no way around this?

Also isn't there a specified rule regarding storms? The video says that most pilots choose to fly around a storm. But the AF crew decided to fly through it.

Last edited by drmohitg : 12th March 2014 at 09:04.
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Old 12th March 2014, 09:14   #112
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivshanker View Post
@Jeroen, thanks for correcting me.
With the blocked Pitot tubes the pilots thought that they are climbing and also that the speed is dropping. In this case would I continue with the Climb or try and gain lift over the wings by increasing speed.?
Why not these advanced jet keep one independent GPS unit in cockpit which can work on its own, similar that we find in our car. Which can tell following to pilot in event of critical instruments failure.

1. Altitude
2. Course
3. Speed
4. Direction
5. Location etc.

This instrument can be only be used in emergency to find exact speed, altitude of planes. There were many accidents in past with altitude problem, one of them was Charki Dadri mid-air collision. Where altimeter of Kazak air was faulty.

@drmohitg Manytimes we don't feel such feeling in our body including blocked ears. Once I was flying Cathay Pacific out of Seoul in extremely bad weather. While climbing fight suddenly started falling at high speed. Everyone in flight started shouting out of fear in that moment. This was some air pocket phenomena and we did not feel anything like you mentioned. On top of that, there was no briefing from pilots about this. That was extremely bad and scary experience for me.
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Old 12th March 2014, 10:01   #113
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

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Originally Posted by anujmishra View Post
Why not these advanced jet keep one independent GPS unit in cockpit which can work on its own, similar that we find in our car. Which can tell following to pilot in event of critical instruments failure.

1. Altitude
2. Course
3. Speed
4. Direction
5. Location etc.

This instrument can be only be used in emergency to find exact speed, altitude of planes. There were many accidents in past with altitude problem, one of them was Charki Dadri mid-air collision. Where altimeter of Kazak air was faulty.
It's a very good point Anuj, but I believe there are couple of reasons why this is not being implemented
1) Cost
2) These failures and problems are rare (1 in million)

In fact some planes have the technology where they automatically log the latest status periodically (the key parameters you mentioned above) on a remote central server, this can be your first investigation point rather than wait for the black box retrieval. In case of AF flight it took 2 years to get the black box I believe. But this has not been implemented because of the above 2 reasons.

The way the industry is poised and cut throat nature of competition, government regulations can only ensure uniform global implementation of such safety measures
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Old 12th March 2014, 11:23   #114
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
I have a small doubt. As a passenger when the plane descends in mid air during landing, you always tend to feel those butterflies in your stomach ( probably due to those gravity laws). I have always attributed this to a sudden descent. Now in case of this AF flight, the video says that the plane was literally falling down with the speed of around 10-15k feet per minute. With such a rapid fall, didn't the passengers/crew/Pilots perceive the fall due to the same effect on there bodies?

.
You are right but only in a way.
Our bodies have excellent inherent abilities to measure ACCELERATION.

Keep your eye closed (actually even with eyes open) and you can easily make out which direction the plane is moving, whether its rolling or pitching or any such CHANGE.

What it cannot make out is the steady velocity. Which means if you are traveling in straight line at constant speed. Your body/mind will assume that you are at rest. (And this is why our minds is at rest usually during a journey)

What you have experienced about butterflies in stomach happens at the moment aircraft start losing altitude. That is when it starts accelerating towards the earth. However, once this rate of altitude change becomes constant, you have no non-sight means of determining the same.

Similarly when aircraft STARTS gaining altitude, you will be pressed to your seat. But as soon as this rate of altitude gain reaches a constant value, you will not longer experience the "g"s

By the way, the butterfly sensation also happens when aircraft gains altitude suddenly and then stops gaining abruptly (something like on the top of a giant speed breaker).
Similarly the pressed to seat sensation also occurs when the aircraft that was losing altitude stops losing altitude.

As I said- acceleration is what we feel/sense. Not the velocity.

Last edited by alpha1 : 12th March 2014 at 11:25.
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Old 12th March 2014, 11:24   #115
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Default Re: Air France Plane goes missing!!! 228 feared dead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anujmishra View Post
Why not these advanced jet keep one independent GPS unit in cockpit which can work on its own, similar that we find in our car. Which can tell following to pilot in event of critical instruments failure.

1. Altitude
2. Course
3. Speed
4. Direction
5. Location etc.

This instrument can be only be used in emergency to find exact speed, altitude of planes. There were many accidents in past with altitude problem, one of them was Charki Dadri mid-air collision. Where altimeter of Kazak air was faulty.

@drmohitg Manytimes we don't feel such feeling in our body including blocked ears. Once I was flying Cathay Pacific out of Seoul in extremely bad weather. While climbing fight suddenly started falling at high speed. Everyone in flight started shouting out of fear in that moment. This was some air pocket phenomena and we did not feel anything like you mentioned. On top of that, there was no briefing from pilots about this. That was extremely bad and scary experience for me.
It is available in all modern airliners and even when I flew my little Cirrus or Diamond it is all available. Roughly speaking, anything with a glass cockpit will have GPS and a whole lot more hooked into it. When I flew non-glass planes such as our Cessna C-150, I would always bring a handheld aviation GPS unit

But, pilots/aviation community when it comes to altitude measure in against MSL (mean sea level), based on a set or given barometer reading in their altituce meter or AGL above ground. (mostly radio altimeter when you get close to the ground. GPS is simply not capable of that, also the height measurement in itself might not be accurate enough, nor its refreshtime adequete. So it will give an indication at best. These days vertical separation can be as little as 500 feet, so not much room for error.

In order to fly and stay airborne you need to understand/maintain amongst others, your airspeed. GPS will only give you groundspeed.

(heavy) turbulence can be a frightening experiece. Although it is extremely rare to cause structural damage. But rarely a week goes by, without somebody getting hurt in turbulence on a plane. Just keep following this forum for a week or so: http://avherald.com/h?list=&opt=0

Although there are certain weather conditions that can be indicative of turbulence, it is difficult to predict exactly, especially clear aird turbulence, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear-air_turbulence

Pilots will advise ATC and each other if they encounter it so other pilots can be warned.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 12th March 2014 at 11:26.
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