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Old 19th June 2009, 12:09   #31
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Tanveer has summed it up quite well. Almost always any work done beyond 12 hours is wastage or atleast takes more time than it would in normal working.

There was once a Manager who tried to force us to come early hours knowing very well that we wont be able to leave before normal leaving hours. Out of 13 odd people I refused as there was neither a client requirement & nor we would have benefited fro this. Since i was a senior member he agreed(he was new in company ) But later I found out that he implemented the same policy in other group where nobody refused.

Having said that I often get miffed by people who dont understand the need of the hour, at times you do have to work beyond your stipulated 8 hours as at the end of the day we are service Industry but ofcourse it should not be often.
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Old 19th June 2009, 12:10   #32
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I worked for Infosys, and quit before i completed the 2 year mark with them. Excluding the 4 months for which i underwent training, i had to work for 14 hours a day with no overtime, and also sacrificed weekends... yes for the whole duration i mentioned. It wasnt just me, the whole team was made to slog thanks to the inefficiency of the skewed management who always blamed the development team in the end. Of a team comprising 16 freshers, almost all quit the company. In each one's exit interview, they mentioned the reasons why they were leaving but the managers went about with no harm done to their profile. Infact, threats became more open about people approaching HR.

When the HR finally opened their eyes, it was too late, and in my case the HR head for the Development Center even asked some substitiute to take my exit interview, purely as formality. Showed how much they cared about feedback - that from a company which screams from the rooftops about how employee friendly they are.

When i later came to know the project was scrapped by the client, my joy knew no bounds. Serves them right, i felt.
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Old 19th June 2009, 12:16   #33
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I'm not in favour of unions in the IT industry. There should instead be a Grievance body under the aegis of a body like NASSCOM for addressing such matter.

In regards to the continued extended works hours, it is mainly due to the wrong estimations provided, often knowingly in order to win the project. I have often lost bids to firms who have quoted values that are mind-boggling low! (In the same bids, the majority would quote similar ballpark range except for the winning firm) I pity the people who have to execute such projects.

I would love to have overtime pay enforced, but there will not be a single IT company who will willingly agree to it unless it become mandatory, by the Govt. And I doubt the government would do such a thing.

Last edited by DriverR : 19th June 2009 at 12:19.
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Old 19th June 2009, 13:23   #34
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5-12% of over 1 million is well over 18000 people. What are we complaining about?
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Old 19th June 2009, 13:23   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androdev View Post
i agree.. the pampered IT crowd should be brought under the purview of Labor laws so that we can experience:
factory siren at 8AM and 5PM. With 30min lunch break and just one 10min tea break.
no flexi hours and working from home nonsense. no ad-hoc leaves either
no performance based fat bonus/promotions,etc. just yearly 'increments'
no "hey, i am stepping out for few hours for some really silly reason"
no surfing (t-bhp traffic will take a huge hit :-)
call ur boss SIR and ask his permission to pee.
+1, i completely agree that there is lot of pampering in the industry. Especially in the last 4-5 years. I started my career more than 10 years back and at that time the expectations, salaries etc were reasonable. Now things have changed and in the name of retaining talent too much of mollycoddling is happening.

On the other hand the situation which started this thread is to be condemned. I would say such scenario are manager and heirarchy dependent. If you have a good manager and someone who is on top of the situation, such scenario rarely arise. Also, these days the market is a total "customer/client" market and managers accept unrealistic demands just to retain business. And due to very low attrition, management is also in no mood to listen to employees and their pain points.

I hope the situation improves soon, else we all will be in a situation where we wont have any job to crib about
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Old 19th June 2009, 14:02   #36
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Wow, the one industry still left in India where the labour unions have not managed to make any headway yet now seems to be giving in too.

Do you know how concerned the labour unions are about employee welfare in the sectors that they are present?

Do you want to be in a situation wherein you have lock outs, strikes, hartaals in the IT industry?

Wake up!!! As educated souls, please wake up and realize how lucky you are to be out of the clutches of those so called wellwishers from political parties and trade unions.

Man, theres so much cribbing about HR practices at so many companies, and you're probably justified too, but where is the compulsion to work there? Why don't you simply look elsewhere? Should'nt be too much of a problem since we employees are so sincere, hardworking and intelligent to boot.
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Old 19th June 2009, 14:42   #37
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Its mainly the employees who are to be blamed for this work culture.
I have seen many companies where most employees feel proud in sitting at the office even on weekends.

I want to ask them - do your european/american counterparts / clients also do the same?

Of course they demand certain quality and quantity of work, and in order to become competitive, your top team shows less manhours required to complete the work, thus reducing the cost.
However, at the end of the day - it is the employees who are on the receiving end.
Because something that WILL take 10 hours cannot be completed in 5 hours (as your top management portrayed)

Now here is where employees are to be blamed. they don't put their foot down.
They don't realize what life they are missing, by slogging. - and come on they are also being swindled (off their precious time).

I guess one reason why this is so - is because the age distribution is skewed in IT towards the freshers.
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Old 19th June 2009, 14:55   #38
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Well we at a (once renowned truthful) IT company are going through a sabbatical and im not sure what labour laws are applicabel to us.
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:06   #39
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Quote:
I want to ask them - do your european/american counterparts / clients also do the same?
I know this is not a norm but my Clients, at times, work for much more than 12-18 hours at one stretch & often on weekends without expecting us to do so.
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:08   #40
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If something has to be done about this, this is just not the right time for it.
There will be no support from employees who're biting their nails off about getting laid off.
Perhaps, when business starts to grow at the end of this recession period would be right.
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:19   #41
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Originally Posted by DriverR View Post
I'm not in favour of unions in the IT industry. There should instead be a Grievance body under the aegis of a body like NASSCOM for addressing such matter.

I would love to have overtime pay enforced, but there will not be a single IT company who will willingly agree to it unless it become mandatory, by the Govt. And I doubt the government would do such a thing.
NASSCOM!!! It is like the murderer is also the person sitting in judgment about his crime or innocence.

Your second point about the Govt. doing such a thing is also unlikely, especially in India, where we pay the taxes that pay the basic salary of politicians, and the industry pays for the bungalows and bank accounts.
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:27   #42
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
NASSCOM!!! It is like the murderer is also the person sitting in judgment about his crime or innocence.
Well said. In fact, NASSCOM is like a union for the IT companies. NASSCOM lobbies the govt for favorable labor regulations, tax breaks etc etc.
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:31   #43
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Do you have any proof that she is been "asked" to work for those many hours? I doubt.

Yeah they were told. Actually they are told everyday by the onsite guys. However, it is all verbal. To create a proof, i can ask my wife to ask them for written communication rather than verbal communication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjothi View Post

As you said, yes if IT was in labour / union etc, then it would only make things worst. I dont think we would have had such steep climb in number of companies.

.
Labor unions comes up because of the pathetic implementation of law and people need brute force of numbers to fight for justice.

IT companies cannot have labor unions as the definition of management and labor is overlapping.

Labor or the people who actually work in IT become management later.

In factories, people who actually work (labor) and people who take decisions (Managers) come from different strata of the society and require different educational levels.

i am looking forward to any laws that are there which i can utilize.

If no, what are the other possibilities besides frustration and looking for a new job. (agree getting a new job is a pretty good solution but why?)
Why can't things be changed.
People in IT are smart, intelligent. Then why can't we bring a change.
Mental exhaustion is equally injurious to health as compared to physical exhaustion. Then why there is rule for one and no rule for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Vampire View Post
The IT industry in India is reeling under recession and atleast my company (one of the Indian majors) is not showing any sign of recovery.

Around 18,000 people were terminated (Forced Resignation) in the last 6 months in the pretext of performance. Many of my friends who has proven mettle in the past 8-12 years were shown the door without giving any reasons. I can understand 5-10% bottom line performance pruning per year, but 18K is HUGE!!!.

What legal options does an Indian IT employee has if he is forced to resign showing no real and valid reason?

People who are still on jobs are facing major difficulties due to huge overtimes as mentioned by the OP. The staffing has reduced around 30%-40% for Fixed Price Projects and the team members bear the brunt with unrealistic work demands and timelines.

I think it is high time IT employees are unionized and Overtime made payable by the employer. The IT employers has taken us for a ride by paying absolutely Zero overtime benefits. What is the point in making all these money if you cant have an equally good social life?
One of my close friends was also fired after 12 years of service with one month of pay and citing performance.

If the same company had to fire an associate in US or any other company, they have to give severance package. Out here it is none.

In India, one can never get severance package. Leave alone severance package, an indian IT company did not even pay the 3 months salary as mentioned the offer letter. They said either take experience certificate or 3 years salary.

When a person is good and a company hired him. Now, they donot have enough work for him and he has to leave, the associate should get severance package because he is being fired for your problems not his.

It is a pity one can use RTI to find what a babu in New Delhi is doing but not for finding out what dirty politics a HR manager is playing.

Last edited by Technocrat : 19th June 2009 at 16:09. Reason: Please use Multiquote option to reply to multiple posts
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:57   #44
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There're more factors at play here:

- peer pressure: There's a desparate urge to show yourself as being "involved", "owning" stuff, and "adding value" etc. If you're not doing it, a dozen others will.
- Some people genuinely enjoy it. They barely have a social life; they meddled with electronics/computers right from childhood, and just geek out ..
- It's just way too convenient to be at office for some. Plush interiors, non-stop internet, decent food. Beats slumming out in a 1 room apartment with no AC, etc.
- People from different backgrounds join IT. There're some genuinely poor folk, who feel fortunate to have such surroundings and quality of life at work.

So it's not just management pressure. A strong manager can create genuine involvement in the team, while still enforcing sane hours. But whither strong managers...
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Old 19th June 2009, 15:59   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverR View Post
I'm not in favour of unions in the IT industry. There should instead be a Grievance body under the aegis of a body like NASSCOM for addressing such matter.

In regards to the continued extended works hours, it is mainly due to the wrong estimations provided, often knowingly in order to win the project. I have often lost bids to firms who have quoted values that are mind-boggling low! (In the same bids, the majority would quote similar ballpark range except for the winning firm) I pity the people who have to execute such projects.

I would love to have overtime pay enforced, but there will not be a single IT company who will willingly agree to it unless it become mandatory, by the Govt. And I doubt the government would do such a thing.

making a UNION is not the intention.

My question is plain and simple.

A person who works in office for 16 hours a day doing mental labor, not taking calls, not taking meetings, or doing any mundane work. Programming - which requires quite some mental effort. Why his/her agony be considered equal to a person who was picking up bricks for 10 hours.
Currently, a person who was picking up bricks is a better position than a person programming (w.r.t to labor laws) in India which is not the case in other countries. (I can name US and Chine for sure as Infy was reprimanded for failing to follow labor laws in California and China as per my friend who used to handle a team of chinese programmers in Shangai - they used to leave at 5, you cannot stop them it is against the law)
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