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Old 19th June 2009, 21:54   #61
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Its not entirely their fault. The way the industry has grown so far means that a lot of people got promoted fast, and along the way, they forgot the pick up the skills needed for the job.

Apart from that , most of these companies use dated methodologies (Waterfall model anyone ?) Using these flawed yet organization mandated tools, its no wonder they come up with wrong estimations.
Organizations supposedly records schedule data from every project , to use as a reference for future project estimations. But with every schedule being cooked, its no surprise that it ends up being GIGO.

I strongly feel that the book "the mythical man month" should be a must read for every Guy who manages a software project.

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Old 19th June 2009, 22:01   #62
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Building that aura about the greatness of the founder & wife was the most brilliant PR scheme ever pulled in India corporate history.
Long back, when Narayana Murthy used to call the shots, this values thing was actually true. Now it's been reduced to just a marketing term. "Values" marketing is no longer working with employees (they've seen thru it), but it's still working with the shareholders. The first few pages of the their annual report makes for some interesting reading (the way they're marketing the "values" theme).

But all said and done, aren't they treating their employees better than most of the other IT majors?...atleast for now.

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Old 19th June 2009, 22:28   #63
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Default Naish.

As another member on this forum would say, "naish".

So, IT chappies want to be protected by the labour laws? "Hahaha" is all I would say.

(disclaimer first - I AM a government servant).

So, this labour officer comes to the IT establishment, and asks the hapless "codemonkey" his salary. The codemonkey says:-

Quote:
Only 50K per month, sah!!!!
So, what do you think the officer would do?? Eh??





guess..



Think.







Cant say?




Have a look at chapter 5 of prc.kerala.gov.in and think of it again.

The highest paid official of the Kerala Labour Department gets 49K (basic + 55% DA (from June, 2009) + 65 Rupees CCA _+ maximum 600 Rupees HRA). That is, if he has put in at least 15 years service in that post. Lower the rank, lesser time in service, means still lower pay. AFAICT, there are only 4 persons, out of a total approx 250 officers in the labour department, who hold that particular rank. My guesstimate is that the mean gross pay in the Kerala Labour department is around 15K.

In IT, 50K is something a fresher / 2-3 year experienced guy is getting. Those are the guys who doing the actual "coding". Rest are "managers".

My boss, who is due for retirement in a couple of years, remarked that his son, (<3 years) eperience, earns more per month that my boss's annual earnings.

So, What can a hapless victim of exploitation earning 50K expect from guys earning typically between 15 to 25K?

Look around - the pay is not going to be much different in other states, or even in the Central Govt. Labour department.
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Old 19th June 2009, 22:38   #64
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My guesstimate is that the mean gross pay in the Kerala Labour department is around 15K.

In IT, 50K is something a fresher / 2-3 year experienced guy is getting.
Thats a hugely optimistic estimate. Where I work, pay starts at slightly greater than 10k ( we have a LOT of BSc grads who essentially do the same work as us, but at half the pay). Most of the folks I work with(mix of freshers and 2~3 year workex guys) get 15~30k, and I think bigger S/W firms pay similar figures, and smaller ones even less.

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Old 20th June 2009, 01:21   #65
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From what I have seen things are much better in MNCs which carry work culture from abroad to India.
Of course there are companies like Adobe, where people have to swipe in to log in, and every time they leave office, they swipe out. if you do not do 40-50 hours a week( I don't know exact number), its adjusted from your leave or something.
The American offices do not have any such nonsense. No prizes for guessing that this circus was invented by a very Indian management.

However its not the only example. I see many companies where good practices are shot down as soon as the damagers here are given control.

And as for these IT companies heralding the IT revolution... its all nonsense, all they have done is create a donkey labor armies of engineers. Research Innovation etc,. all take a back seat.
In these times of lay off and recession, its difficult to find a coder who can actually code. Positions lay vacant, and, but all we find is a drone from the service industry.
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:04   #66
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My company makes people accountable for what they do, not time spent!

The focus is on work-life balance. If you have an issue, you escalate. A lot of us have evening con-calls so you are given the flexibility to go early for come late. You can even work from home but there are key guidleines on this (to avoid goofing off)

If you have a personal problem or sick. Discuss it and the team stretches where possible, Ladies are not allowed to work beyond 8pm in office. Only time when people slog are during "tape outs" and releases.

Let me give you example of the difference between our company and the one founded by the person who cleans his own toilet

A cousin's (who works there) father was dying of cancer. They kept deliberating about leave and this poor guy had to also care for his dad. This guy used to go to office at 5.00 am, clock in 6 hours (half a day) return at lunch time and nurse his father. If it was my company, it would be "stay with your dad", get a broadband set up and stay connected and come in/ call in for key meetings.

Again this company insists people clock 9hours 15 min in the campus. Of which 1hr 15 mn are for your breaks. You need to swipe in when you enter your respective building. Any log out from the building is considered your break so imagine walking across the large campus and you meet that boring senior manager

thats why we are No 2 this year in the Great Place to Work survey - Work-life Balance and Strong WorkEthic
Hi Ajmat,

If i am not wrong, I think you are talking about the largest chipmaker of the world where I worked for around 2 years (@Infantry road) before my mind stopped working . I still regret my decision and I know will keep doing so rest of my life.

Hope you having a good time there..

-Inder
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:09   #67
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I would recommend your wife to shift job if she cannot cope up with the current pressure. There is nothing much that can be done in situations such as these where management is helpless or uncooperative.

To lead a peaceful life in IT industry it is important to have a trouble free project and boss. The work culture of the company does not matter much in situations where either of them go wrong. I have come to the conclusion after working for indian as well as foreign multi national companies.

The average indian service company quote less to get a project, squeeze manpower (most of them freshers and a manager/ team lead with a mandate to make them deliver somehow) and make a decent profit.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Thats a hugely optimistic estimate. Where I work, pay starts at slightly greater than 10k ( we have a LOT of BSc grads who essentially do the same work as us, but at half the pay). Most of the folks I work with(mix of freshers and 2~3 year workex guys) get 15~30k, and I think bigger S/W firms pay similar figures, and smaller ones even less.
IT industry is not as rosy as portrayed. The high pay is usually when there is a high demand for a particular skill set. Central governemnt jobs look attractive now after the revised pay structure coupled with high security, high reliability, less stress, good perks and fixed work timings.

Mostly people have an impression that IT is the place to make money by being in luxurious complexes without any physical strain. There is a dark side of IT (similar to dark side of modding) that people are not aware of. It is very important to be active and do exercise regularly considering the nature of work in IT industry.

The better pay in IT industry is because of the reason that rupee is cheap. The high salary would simply go away if we cater only to domestic market. It is mostly low end development and support work that comes to India.

In times of recession, the salary remains same or goes down (if the person is fortunate to retain job). But I do not see any considerable effect on the high cost of living in Bangalore.

Every salaried job has its own positives and negatives. A programmer stays in a cozy office where as a sales guy keeps travelling coping with traffic jams and hear. I admire lift operators for spending long time in a cramped compartment which keeps moving up and down.

Let us enjoy the positives and pray to god to bless us in this life and afterlife.
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Old 20th June 2009, 02:29   #68
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This thread has taken a curious turn and now reflects the insecurity caused by lay-offs etc. and draws attention to the long hours demanded.

A few members have thrown up the counterpoint that IT guys get paid disproportionately more than others.

A friend who holds a senior position in the IT sector has a cousin who holds a similar position in the Indian subsidary of an European FMCG major. When the IT chap griped about the insecurity and hoped aloud that he would not be laid off as he had commitments - his cousin remarked "You guys made hay when the sun shone. I get 1/3rd of what you get, but I am assured of a job till I retire."

That remark reflected some folk wisdom as reflected in the following two adages.

1. There is no free lunch. If you are getting paid a hefty sum - expect that the payer will extract his pound of flesh.

2. Make hay while the sun shines. The two extreme ends of HR & pay fixation policies are - short term where the pay is high but there is no job security and - long term where the pay is low but there is an employment guarantee. Something like performance Vs FE in our cars, one cannot wish that a 300BHP engine give 20Kmpl.

I remember the days when the IT & ITES companies used to complain bitterly about employees who would quit the job the minute they got a better offer. These employees would just not show up for work no resignation letter or intimation.

As already pointed out, the average pay of an officer in the governments is about 15 to 20 K a month. Seniormost officers (Secretaries to the Government) get about twice that. Government servants have no real fixed hours and are expected to be on call 24 hrs a day. If they leave town they are to give their local address and contact details. So people are going to be like "Huh - you get more than the seniormost civil servant and you want protection!?" This however is beside the point.

At the end of the day, it is for the employees in the IT companies to decide whether they are blue collared workers (labour) or white collared employees who might call themselves 'IT professionals'. Each have their share of advantages and disadvantages. Before I forget, it gets worse as you become senior and move up the ladder.

As Ajmat has pointed out, there are some companies which have excellent HR policies in place. Such policies help the company, their customers and employees in the long run. Employees should seek employment in such companies and not run after the highest pay. Managers everywhere should try to emulate the policies and practices followed in such well run companies. But then, that is possible only in an ideal world. Till then we shall remain in awe of "Office is just like in America", "Canteen has burgers & potato wedges", "They not only have a TT table, they also have a pool table", "They send people to work on-site not only to America (which is passe) but also to Europe".

It is time for a reality check, ask "Do I really need another car (an expensive fast one)", "Do I really need to buy that humongous plasma screen + home theatre system", "Do I really need to keep the fashionable new watering hole in business", "Do I really need to live in a 4B HK luxury semi-detached duplex", "Do I need to change expensive cell phones every 3/6 months? etc.

Another simple rule - Living on credit kills, save before spending.

Till then, that is the nature of the beast (called IT industry). What cannot be cured must be endured. Sometimes I do believe that the cure will be worse than the disease, if we had a 'work to rule' and strict timings of 9 to 5, how much business will we be able to generate? (China has some strict policies - any wonder that they are not on the radar for IT, except the minimum required for local consumption.) If we cannot generate business - what will happen to the jobs?

No job or industry is a bad one - it is what you make of it.

Cheers mates,
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Old 20th June 2009, 07:23   #69
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All that hoopla about their so called values came from their need to boost stock prices. Even now an average stock holder won't sell that stock because it is a nice company with values. Their PR machinery ensures that no bad news about them ever gets out in the media. Building that aura about the greatness of the founder & wife was the most brilliant PR scheme ever pulled in India corporate history.
I quoted about the value perspective of Infy in my exit interview to HR ( as if they were bothered) . At the end i realised i was better off being a shareholder than an employee
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Old 20th June 2009, 07:42   #70
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I am surprised to see IT people talking about job security. As Ravveendrra pointed out, you can't have high gains (high salalry) for low risks (job security). Instead, you should aim to attain employment security, which doesn't depend on your employer, but yourselves.

Here is an excerpt from the article originally written by me in 2003. Somebody had reposted it Sulekha.com same year. I wrote that when I was in Return2India forum. That forum is currently in it's third site after the first two sites got shutdown. All the articles I wrote in 5 years in that forum are lost forever.

Here is the relevant part for this thread:

Quote:
Job security (US and India)
First, let’s define the current meaning of job security. This is necessary because the meaning of job security has changed drastically since our parent’s generation. In our parent’s generation, job security basically meant the inability of the employer to fire you unless you screw up big time. Even if you worked for private sector, one never got fired for mediocrity or incompetence. Willful fraud or company bankruptcy was the only way to lose your job. Please note I am not taking about government, public sector, or even unionized jobs into consideration, they still remain the last bastion of the incompetent. These days job security means your ability to remain attractive or valuable to current employer and future/potential employers. And it has to be done in positive ways, not negatively as suggested by one forum member, which is bound to backfire with a smart manager. You can no more relax after bagging a job. Whichever field you are in, you have to constantly update your skills sets to remain competitive with your peers in the work place and job market. This can be done via self-study or continuous education courses or by attaining advanced diplomas or degrees. You can immensely improve your job security by being proactive in your work place, helping others instead of holding back, making yourself more valuable than you are paid. In addition, you should keep in touch with your friends from each of your former companies as much as possible. After a few years in a particular field, one does realize that it is a small world. You’ll have many former colleagues (managers/subordinates/peers) working in various companies in your field. When you do have to look for a job, these connections come in very handy. The impression that they have about your work ethics/competence/performance will be the key in getting your next job. You don’t want them to remember you as an incompetent, primaddona or a manipulative person. Finally, you should never burn bridges, because someday you may want to cross back or need a favor from somebody from the other side of the bridge. This is how one achieves job security in the current environment, and surely not by depending on the mercy of your current manager/employer or a future one.
Source: An Email Exchange on R2I Dilemma : An Email Exchange on R2I Dilemma, mamu blogs on sulekha, Personal blogs, mamu blog from india
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Old 20th June 2009, 08:27   #71
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1. There is no free lunch. If you are getting paid a hefty sum - expect that the payer will extract his pound of flesh.

2) Something like performance Vs FE in our cars, one cannot wish that a 300BHP engine give 20Kmpl.



No job or industry is a bad one - it is what you make of it.
1) I doubt that statement looking at what the Neats/Babus of India are able to muster up. You know why IPCL (Indian Petro Chemicals Limited ) was sold to Reliance ?
Because people who had opportunity to get a free lunch ate more than what was necessary. This is dark reality which we cannot escape. Go to any government office and you will realize what is " free lunch ".
If at all this is applicable, then it must be applicable to all who are earning, irrespective of their field and institution. Does it happen ? NO. That is why the problem of IT comes up.

2) But we do expect that 100 hp car will give 15 kmpl. But we cant have that, add to that we dont even get good quality fuel. Got my point ?

People have to shift jobs for many reasons. If in competition a company is offering more pay than another company, definitely an employee will change jobs. But this must not mean that one can exploit employees.

The only thing I am trying to put forward is that reality is quite differnet from what we can imagine. I am not very experienced in this field, but I am yet to get a proper definition for the term " IT Professionals ". A person getting Rs. 25K a month ( she made this progress in two months, from 12 to 25K ) asked me to mail a 2 GB software. She is reputed to be good IT professional.

I am now on the verge of sacrificing my family stability, but wnat to study more in abroad by changing my field from IT to engineering or automotive. I will take 6 years to just finish studies ( I am already 22 ), but I am ready to give that much time considering what I have seen in IT field.

PS : I am not ready to post more details about the dark horrors that I have seen in IT. The above post is from my experince and observation.
One must do a job where :
1) Honesty is not there.
2) Transperency is not there.
3) Work environment is not good.

Meeting all the above three points even by 50% is not easy and it will take years to find a proper job, but then its worth that.
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Old 20th June 2009, 09:06   #72
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You know what? There are bloody too many middlemen (or is it middle managers?) in the IT industry. These chaps are only interested in becoming slave drivers and make a pile of money along the way. They wouldn't know what a CPU is,nor interested to know, even if you pointed at it.

The current crisis presents a good opportunity to separate the wheat from the chaff. Those who are in it for solely for the money, will get out.
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Old 20th June 2009, 09:07   #73
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aaggoswami, while you are already 22, I am still 19, in experience I mean.

You are making very wide blanket statements about the dark horrors of IT armed with very little experience and exposure. Like any field that welcomes creativity and talent, this field too can become what you make of it. So you shouldn't declare the war as lost before fighting the first battle.

After suffering 6 years in India's largest software company, I joined a 3 people company, actually I was the third person. Since I worked in small companies before that, I knew it would be more enjoyable than working for giant companies. After 11 years, I am still in the same company. And due to the bitter lessons I learnt during the dark times, I am able to provide a much better working conditions to my staff now. The dark times can teach you a lot, but you can always get away from it once you had enough. So don't run away right away, unless you really don't like the IT field.
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Old 20th June 2009, 09:57   #74
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My wife is working in a leading Indian IT Company and there is tremendous work load. 16-18 hrs everyday including weekends.
Well welcome to the real world! There are pros and cons to everything! To those on the "other side", IT jobs are easy, high pay etc etc. But few see the down side unless they are here.

I make between 2 to 3 times what my friends in non-IT sectors like Banking and with similar experience make. On the other hand I spend twice the amount of time at work too often carrying my work home and even on holiday! But its a choice i dont regret making at alL!

Again there is choice even in IT. You can get by with an 8 hour, 9 to 6 day. But then you would end up as an also-ran: one of those picked last for promotions. On the other hand there are those nice kids who are driven by work, dont hesitate to come by themselves on a weekend to finish off the deliveries without cribbing about getting a CompOff, and work without me having to scream at them! Those are the kind of people we love!

Labour laws? Well it is our flexible labour policies that are helping us get the business and enabling us to pay the kind of salaries we do. The same salaries feed the malls and passions of many us on Team-Bhp as well!!

So no! no changes to labour laws. If anything, make them more market friendly. We are too pinko-commie right now!

Last edited by COUGAR : 20th June 2009 at 09:59.
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Old 20th June 2009, 13:12   #75
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While on the topic of job security, how many people stay in IT past 45 years age?

Just being curious, and asking for opinion from insiders. Please make it clear whether you are in the IT industry or not.

Edit: I will rephrase my question:-

"Is it true that there is early career burnout in the IT industry? "
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