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Old 21st June 2009, 14:35   #91
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Originally Posted by black12rr View Post
I too work for a pure product company for around 4 years now .Initially it looked all good and then realized ppl do anything to get get a raise or get promoted , even if they have to push down on some one .Its out right dirty and ugly there . Many things are done for sake of being done (even though they know its not needed ) . When you stand against it , you are marked arrogant , don't have attitude and what not .
This applies to every field, not just IT.

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Most of IT we do its benefiting someone else ,nothing is benefited to nation and to its ppl here.
Ah. But why? Or rather, why complain?

We have deliberately chosen to work for another entity. And all that we do, is theirs. That is the right thing, is it not?

When we work for ourselves, all that we do, belongs to us. What has working conditions to do with this?

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For example Notworking® is a very essential skill. When faced with situations where the impression of being productive is valued more than productivity itself, Notworking® is a valuable tool.
Fully applicable to govt too.

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Once You reach a certain level of proficiency in Notworking®, you will be promoted to a group of individuals who are as proficient, if not better , for you to learn even more. These Individuals are called Managers. Together, you will be able to create value out of limited rectal bandwidth by effectively leveraging best in class paradigms leading to accelerated delivery of optimal solutions!
Peter principle.
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Old 21st June 2009, 14:48   #92
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Fully applicable to govt too.
Quite agree. Big Software co jobs are fast becoming the new Government jobs. Accelerated by the nature of the jobs and the Dead sea effect

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Peter principle.
Tell me about it. The dilbert principle is the book which got me started down this path. its a must read for anyone who finds themselves frustrated with the current system.
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Old 21st June 2009, 14:49   #93
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Originally Posted by Stig View Post
My wife is working in a leading Indian IT Company and there is tremendous work load. 16-18 hrs everyday including weekends.

I went to labour.nic.in and was not able to find any links pertaining to IT Sector.

I was wondering if there is any legal wayout of this, can the company be punished in india the same way infosys has to pay 22 million dollars in US for the very same reasons.
Having read some posts, all I can say that there are companies that are super duper women friendly.
They get to 'evacuate' the premises at a stipulated time. Say right after sunset.
Such a company exists right here in BLR where a bell is rung (old school type) and the security visits each floor to check whether the female staff have left.
It is so so strict that I have heard from the employees there that the Security personnel have gone ahead and said "Madam please leave else we have to give expaination as to why you were allowed to sit around after 7:45" (The HR checked the out log the next morning.)
If an employee has to sit beyond the stipulated time then she requires to have her manager's permission after which a cab is booked for her.

Needless to say these are the companies which put employees first and profits, competition etc later.
Some IT companies with the best employee friendly policies are (in no specific order):
Thought Works
Sapient (recently heard some sad stories there too)
NESS Technologies.

@STIG: Sorry to hear about your wife's ordeal. She can try in some other companies too. Don't worry too much. World of IT is so strange that at some point you are loaded and some other times you have a ball out there.
Like in some other thread related to recession, I had a relative about to be sacked/laid off, survives, and the next month is in the States.
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Old 21st June 2009, 14:58   #94
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btw, we had a similar discussion about a year ago.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ies-india.html (Top most Firing/ Secure IT companies in India)
some of you might find it interesting
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Old 21st June 2009, 16:20   #95
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one founded by the person who cleans his own toilet
I liked this description of the company Wife used to work here and had to catch the BUS at 7 AM ! Because office are out in villages. On top of it, the manager would say, you don't stay late in office so no good ratings.We even shifted the house because of the distance, and Company shifted itself to 25 Km ! I said enough and shifted her to a company within City's limits and one good reason to join there was that they refused to take interview on Saturday or after 6 pm.

When I come back from morning walk, I see so many people waiting for buses or boarding them earling in morning when I'll go and probably read newspaper. That plus 16 hours of work everyday. So much stress is not worth the money. How good were those days where in movies, hero heroine look at the wall clock ticking 5 PM in office and go hand in hand to the bus stop. easy cool life . Less money but peaceful.

Dear, I would suggest to change the job or quit if possible. What is the use of wealth without health
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:02   #96
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This situation is generally created by clueless managers who don't know how to run a project within schedule or how to estimate work.
Pretty strong words eh mate?

look at it from the managers perspective: not everyone in the team performs to expectations and ultimately he has to take the flak from the clients and from the senior management. For a project to succeed everyone in the team has to do the job assigned to him/her. We do make allocations in our Project Plan with adequate buffers etc, but what do you do when the team is filled with nincompoops and totally incompetent Project/Team Leads who cant tell their *** from their head? The worst part is we dont control the input(the team of Programmers/PL's) which is handed over to us by HR who is not concerned with quality of resources but merely with filling in their recruitment targets. But at the same time we are expected to have a handle on output?

At the end of the 16 hour day, the programmers, Team leads and programmers go home to wife and kids and kick back with a beer and a movie on their home theaters. But we have to come home after an equally long day and receive calls from irate clients asking about their deliveries and complaints about Project Leads who didnt do their job. Followed by furious calls from bosses asking why payments for last months invoices havent come in. And while staff handle one project at a time, we have headaches from 4/5 projects to look at.

Ultimately its the Project Manager who is at the receiving end of the crossfire: from the clients, the senior management and the kids as well.

Still think its all rosy for Project Managers mate?

Last edited by COUGAR : 22nd June 2009 at 11:05.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:18   #97
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Pretty strong words eh mate?

look at it from the managers perspective: not everyone in the team performs to expectations and ultimately he has to take the flak from the clients and from the senior management. For a project to succeed everyone in the team has to do the job assigned to him/her. We do make allocations in our Project Plan with adequate buffers etc, but what do you do when the team is filled with nincompoops and totally incompetent Project/Team Leads who cant tell their *** from their head? The worst part is we dont control the input(the team of Programmers/PL's) which is handed over to us by HR who is not concerned with quality of resources but merely with filling in their recruitment targets. But at the same time we are expected to have a handle on output?

At the end of the 16 hour day, the programmers, Team leads and programmers go home to wife and kids and kick back with a beer and a movie on their home theaters. But we have to come home after an equally long day and receive calls from irate clients asking about their deliveries and complaints about Project Leads who didnt do their job. Followed by furious calls from bosses asking why payments for last months invoices havent come in. And while staff handle one project at a time, we have headaches from 4/5 projects to look at.

Ultimately its the Project Manager who is at the receiving end of the crossfire: from the clients, the senior management and the kids as well.

Still think its all rosy for Project Managers mate?
well said Cougar -- i am into the Project Management arena for the last 5 yrs now and have had few instances where i could control the project input and manage it in real terms -- Putting my foot down and refusing unrealistic targets or unreasonable incompetent team members has cost me my job as a delivery manager in the recent past
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Old 22nd June 2009, 11:29   #98
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@kpbhatt, I am sure you have had collegues who overcommit so that they can early browny points.
I am sure it cost you your job because there were plenty of damagers who were willing to promise the moon at the cost of their team.
But worry not. Your team will love you for that, and as years progress, your reputation will only grow. If only there were more of your kind in the industry!
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Old 22nd June 2009, 12:11   #99
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Originally Posted by COUGAR View Post
Pretty strong words eh mate?

look at it from the managers perspective:
.
.
.

Still think its all rosy for Project Managers mate?
And you feel I wouldn't know anything about this after 19 years in the industry? I have successfully fought unrealistic expections ever since I got my first team in 1996. I never accept a target unless it is realistic and I always estimate based on 40 hour week, not 60-80 hour weeks. Yes, there are situations where client requirements force you to overwork, but I manage to keep those situations to the minimum.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 13:08   #100
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The system also has to be blamed, competition is so ruthless these days that, even estimations are cut down to unrealistic levels just to get the business. Eventually the project and all the stake holders suffer, some fight it out, some just walk out and find another job.

and let me not start "oh how i hate the IT industry' thread
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Old 22nd June 2009, 13:10   #101
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We do make allocations in our Project Plan with adequate buffers etc, but what do you do when the team is filled with nincompoops and totally incompetent Project/Team Leads who cant tell their *** from their head?
What exactly do you do other than produce the "project plan" and sundry weekly reports to the client and the boss???? Do you get your hands dirty by training and mentoring those nincompoops and totally incompetent project leads??? Do you conduct the technical interviews when the HR requests for it, so that you can weed out these nincompoops in the first place?? Do you give these nincompoops a negative performance rating so that they are thrown out of the company after giving them a reasonable chance to improve their performance?

I have been a project manager and done all of the above. Being a PM means "The buck stops here". It means YOU are responsible for the projects, don't shift the blame elsewhere to HR, PL's, TL's, TM's etc etc.

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But we have to come home after an equally long day and receive calls from irate clients asking about their deliveries and complaints about Project Leads who didnt do their job.
Who told you to give the clients/boss your home/mobile number? Does work/life balance ring any bells?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 13:23   #102
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not everyone in the team performs to expectations and ultimately he has to take the flak from the clients and from the senior management.
Duh?? Why take blame for poor performers? Train them get them up to speed, if still they are not good, ask them to leave.


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but what do you do when the team is filled with nincompoops and totally incompetent Project/Team Leads who cant tell their *** from their head?
Absurd again. If such teams exist i dont understand what projects they are working on and how they manage to survive in this competitive environment. Dont tell me you do all the work alone then.

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The worst part is we dont control the input(the team of Programmers/PL's) which is handed over to us by HR who is not concerned with quality of resources but merely with filling in their recruitment targets. But at the same time we are expected to have a handle on output?
Nobody gets on the team if he/she is not good. HR? They cant do a thing if we interview and they dont qualify.

What firm are you working in??

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At the end of the 16 hour day, the programmers, Team leads and programmers go home to wife and kids and kick back with a beer and a movie on their home theaters. But we have to come home after an equally long day and receive calls from irate clients asking about their deliveries and complaints about Project Leads who didnt do their job.
I think you are being taken for granted. I am sure you must be spending late nights in office and taking calls from home. You are showered with praises and awards. You get a cubicle of your choice and fully paid broadband and telephone bills.

Wake up.

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Still think its all rosy for Project Managers mate?
Nothings rosy, its how you manage it. If you have no control about the people being hired, no accountability from the PLs/TLs, no work life balance, no control over the project etc. I think you have not being hired for what you applied for.

Edit: I think spadival above has put it well.

Last edited by Spitfire : 22nd June 2009 at 13:24.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 17:47   #103
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I have been a project manager and done all of the above. Being a PM means "The buck stops here". It means YOU are responsible for the projects, don't shift the blame elsewhere to HR, PL's, TL's, TM's etc etc.
Absolutely, thanks for putting it out so nicely.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 18:32   #104
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Being a PM means "The buck stops here". It means YOU are responsible for the projects, don't shift the blame elsewhere to HR, PL's, TL's, TM's etc etc.

Well put and to a great extend i agree.

But i have seen situations where all accountability was delegated to PM with none of his veto powers and at the end he suffered along with his whole team.

No am not a PM

Theories are good but when it comes to implimenation stage, all the stake holders from Top to Bottom have to sing it in the same note (EDIT: rather the right note assigned to them) OR it will be just plain noise.

Last edited by Jaggu : 22nd June 2009 at 18:34.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 18:35   #105
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Um, Ideally Everyone is responsible for their tasks. At my place, we voluntarily take ownership of the stuff we're assigned to. If you're competent, and the risk factors are taken care of, its not something hard to do.

Else of course, you can start learning for that NotWorking® Degree

Last edited by greenhorn : 22nd June 2009 at 18:36.
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