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Old 22nd June 2009, 19:35   #106
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unfortunately, the thing that is really needed to alleviate these problems cannot be bottled and put in a framework. that, folks, is COMMON SENSE. most people around simply lack it.
unions or laws are not the solution because they are man made and can be twisted and exploited by either side.
I do not put much stock in so called "laws" of any nature. most of them are plain pessimistic or stupid and can be flouted in a thousand different ways.

I flouted every "rule" Infosys made just for kicks and would enjoy watching managers and HR squirm unable to touch me with a barge pole. not because I was senior or something, but just because I would follow the leter of the rule but destroy its spirit in plain sight. it only went to highlight the pointlessness of stupid rules like wearing ties and roaming around with badges dangling.
what could somebody possibly do if I "conspicuously" wore my badge around my arm like Coolie # 786? sod all.

what Ive noticed might not go down well with many but here it is like I saw it... most developers are clueless because they sleepwalked through college and took a ridiculous canned test to get in, thanks to clueless hiring managers who work like visa stampers in American embassies. with incompetent managers who cannot guide them, these new recruits come in clueless and stay clueless. I knew somebody who had been around for 5 years but did not know what "formatting a computer" meant. I knew another dude who was a BTech in Computers and woke me up at 3 AM to ask me what "multiple inheritance" meant. when one talks about IT companies canning people and going all crazy, why doesnt one stop and think if the canned people really deserved even what they got so far?
these companies are NOT responsible to support us throughout our lives and it is plain stupidity to keep living under the impression that these jobs are permanent.
they exist for the sole purpose of making money from any possible avenue. it that means developers have to be driven like slaves, so be it. none of the upper management thinks about putting itself in the shoes of a hapless developer because they are happy with their big money and expanding portfolio. hardly any developer takes it upon himself to stand up and fight if the manager does something screwy. we are all worried about our little paychecks so that we can pay off the next EMI.
eventually, we go on to become managers and expect people under us to do the same things we did thus propagating a vicious cycle.

I got sick and tired of smart work only being rewarded with more work and kicked the job. am doing my own thing now on my own terms and living happily in the moment.

what I am saying is that if one is unhappy about one's life, he should take initiative instead of waiting for some higher authority to magically bail him out.
this is easier said than done though because many people are not in a position to take blind leaps of faith.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 20:22   #107
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@ Blacmagic: +1. As it is said, Love your job, not your company.

Companies exist to make profits. So learn what you can and develop your skills everyday. As long as you are confident of your skills and capabilities, you will always do well in your career, no matter how the market is.
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Old 22nd June 2009, 21:05   #108
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Originally Posted by blacmagic View Post
that, folks, is COMMON SENSE. most people around simply lack it.
Common Sense is not that common, so rules are made.

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Originally Posted by blacmagic View Post
I flouted every "rule" Infosys made just for kicks and would enjoy watching managers and HR squirm unable to touch me with a barge pole. not because I was senior or something, but just because I would follow the leter of the rule but destroy its spirit in plain sight.
I never used to follow the tie rule in TCS, but never got into any trouble. Real fun was in visiting the training center wearing Jeans & T-Shirt, which was the dress code at HP (client site) where I used to work. The Training Head who had very strictly enforced the dress code in her center used to get hopping mad. Poor lady couldn't do much about it since she was my junior...

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I knew another dude who was a BTech in Computers and woke me up at 3 AM to ask me what "multiple inheritance" meant.
Isn't that when you inherit property from both your mother's side and father's side?
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Old 22nd June 2009, 21:08   #109
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here's some people who can help : UNITES Professionals
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Old 23rd June 2009, 10:41   #110
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What exactly do you do other than produce the "project plan" and sundry weekly reports to the client and the boss???? Do you get your hands dirty by training and mentoring those nincompoops and totally incompetent project leads???
And what makes you think we dont? Ever heard of this thing called Training budgets? And training can only get you so far: you cant expect kittens to start hunting down deer no matter what training you give them: hence my original point of the key being proper selection. We have taken technical interviews as well and have found on more than one occassion that candidates rejected by me have been recruited because some other PM okayed him after pressure from the HR.

There are limitations and then there are limitations: we just work with we have. And yes there are times when we ourselves have got down to training staff or even coding. So PM's arent just sitting around filling XL sheets. There may be some who do that: PM's who dont come from a technical background or "peacocks" as we call them: MBA-types strutting around with an exagerated sense of self importance.

Nobody plans for a 60 hour week let alone a 80 hour week. However there are some teams who grossly overshoot not just their own estimates but also the extra buffer we have put in and then some! With experience you know to vary the estimates based on the team alloted, but there again how much can you "pad" without running into marketing? we have to strike a middle ground here: on ewhich is acceptable to marketing and client and what is doable given the resources.

Its easy to say "fire the idiot": much more difficult to implement in practice. How do you fire a guy who has been leading a project for 2 odd years? Getting KT to a new person is going to be a much bigger headache! And where are the resources to take his place? And the "star" resources are mostly already fully booked and there is hardly any extra lying around: even less now in these days of recession!

Can PM's really say no i cant take so and so project? This is a competive business dude: if you say no there are a dozen other PM's willing to take on the assignment and noone wants to be dubbed as a "difficult" PM. If a PM is difficult on one assignment, marketing could well start overlooking him for future projects, directly impactin our billing and thus our growth.

The point is that "blame the manager" is the easiest thing to do. But understand that its not all rosy on the other side. There are hazaar factors at play here.

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Who told you to give the clients/boss your home/mobile number? Does work/life balance ring any bells?
Ever heard of something called VOIP? In our job we have to be available. Its goes with the job. Much of our business comes from kissin gora ***. Live with it. and its not a bad thing to have a VOIP connxn at home: you can take a con call at home at midnight and not have to wait in the office.

Last edited by COUGAR : 23rd June 2009 at 10:43.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 11:24   #111
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Whats with this PM bashing going on?? Many times delays happen because the resource is just sitting on his/her work. Resource can be anyone from Trainee to Senior PM.

Anyway, interesting idea it is to bring IT companies under Labor laws. Does that mean there will be a union? If yes, then the possibilities are endless! IT employees will get a political clout! Our netas will speak in bits and bytes to woo us. There will be rallies inside IT campuses! hehehe... best of all, we in Bangalore will be able to take on the three wheeler goondas!! I say bring it on!!

The geek shall finally inherit the world!

Cheers to that thought!
Amitoj
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Old 23rd June 2009, 12:37   #112
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And what makes you think we dont? Ever heard of this thing called Training budgets? And training can only get you so far: you cant expect kittens to start hunting down deer no matter what training you give them: hence my original point of the key being proper selection. We have taken technical interviews as well and have found on more than one occassion that candidates rejected by me have been recruited because some other PM okayed him after pressure from the HR.
My sympathies are with you. You seem to have a particularly difficult team and culture to deal with, at your organization. But I would say this is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to "project management".

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Ever heard of something called VOIP? In our job we have to be available. Its goes with the job. Much of our business comes from kissin gora ***. Live with it. and its not a bad thing to have a VOIP connxn at home: you can take a con call at home at midnight and not have to wait in the office.
Well, If you have signed up and agreed with your client/boss that you can be called in the middle of the night, who's fault is it? Is it the TL's fault? or the HR's fault? Is it that nincompoop programmer's fault? You are being called in the middle of the night because your job demands it and you think you are being compensated for it!!

while I was at a client location, I have sent a gora back to his seat when he interrupted my conversation with another Indian colleague. This gora happened to be my client "Senior manager" and still keeps in touch. Probably because he understands that it is not professional to interrupt someone or call someone in the middle of the night (unless you are in production support).

PS: I have VOIP too at home and on my mobile.. to make cheap Rs 1.5/min calls to my family in India.

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Whats with this PM bashing going on??
Duly note that the said bashing is done by current/former PM's

Last edited by spadival : 23rd June 2009 at 12:50.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 14:31   #113
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Duly note that the said bashing is done by current/former PM's
Ohho! PMs bashing each other!!! I know quite a few people who wont mind paying to see that
hmm... i smell opportunity here. hehehe.
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Old 5th October 2009, 13:51   #114
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Labor law or no labor law I think it's high time employees get organized. Not talking about unions or political affiliations here. But there should be an organization of employees within a company to air the needs and concerns of the employees in general.
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Old 6th October 2009, 12:33   #115
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Ohho! PMs bashing each other!!! I know quite a few people who wont mind paying to see that
hmm... i smell opportunity here. hehehe.
Whole of our team would love to see that and we dont mind contributing some extra punches to the managers
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Old 6th October 2009, 13:45   #116
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some extra punches to the managers
Its progression. Wait till you guys become managers. Then we will see.

The grass is greener, tastier and is rather "bamboo" on the other side. The bamboo stays hidden. Get on here then we will talk
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Old 6th October 2009, 14:21   #117
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Its progression. Wait till you guys become managers. Then we will see.
Thats promotion. Not progression

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The grass is greener, tastier and is rather "bamboo" on the other side. The bamboo stays hidden. Get on here then we will talk
Hidden where? Some place where the sun don't shine ?

Even managers have their managers. And the grass continues to look greener on the other side, until you become a cowboy and start milking the cows instead of eating grass!
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Old 6th October 2009, 14:28   #118
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Thats promotion. Not progression
No no its progression. Promotions are for cronies

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Hidden where? Some place where the sun don't shine ?
Where else does the bamboo fit?

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until you become a cowboy and start milking the cows instead of eating grass!
BINGO!! You still see the grass but now you don't need to eat it.
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Old 6th October 2009, 14:38   #119
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No no its progression. Promotions are for cronies
Calling a duck a horse will not stop it from quacking

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Where else does the bamboo fit?
hehe. the business end of it has only one place. agreed.
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Old 6th October 2009, 14:41   #120
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Calling a duck a horse will not stop it from quacking
Now you know why some people here want Unions.
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