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Old 5th July 2009, 07:50   #151
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Originally Posted by dockap View Post
once he is 18 years old i have no problems if my son wants to smoke or consume alcohol but definately woudnt like him being gay
drinking or smoking is not a disease but the risk factor for the disease

and about whats un natural about being gay-
from the smallest single cell organism to the largest-blue wale and smartest animal-man primary function is to reproduce so that the species continues to thrive
have you seen animal planet,discovery or nat geo every organism wants to mate and produce offspring to continue their species some even die after mating-their last act in life but still they do it because they have been programed to do it
now why would they do it cause in addition to the programing god has made the act so pleasureable so that they reproduce and life continues

imagine tomorrow all the male lions in africa decide gay is the in thing and start humping each other within 10 years there willl be no lions in africa
same way tomorrow if everyone in this world says hey gay is so cool whats wrong with it within the next 100 years planet earth will not have any more humans on it ----now do you understand why its un natural

I really think you must research your facts. About 10-20% of all animals are proven to be homo sexual. Swans and penguins have to shown strong homosexual bondings forming same sex couples and some swan homosexual couples are devoted to each other for life!!! Dolphins have a high sexual drive and are known to pursure homo sexual relationships. Same case with the simian species. So really i fail to understand this 'against nature' cry most of the people here are using.

Pursuing your argument on the whole human population going extinct because the entire world would become gay borders on the absurd. As if gayism is a disease which would infect all hetrosexual people

This sounds exactly like the arguments our forefather's had on intra caste relationships or intra religious relationships. Same basis, my caste/religion would grow extinct coz all would go for intra caste/relgious marriage. Has that happened?
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:05   #152
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I was expecting this.showing animal for examples of homosexuality.koalas et al.

But,This is a disorder and it is still not "natural".One day a Medical Solution for this disease and disorder will come.
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:11   #153
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Originally Posted by deepclutch View Post
But,This is a disorder and it is still not "natural".One day a Medical Solution for this disease and disorder will come.
Yup and then who knows, they'll be able to cure bigotry, machoism and narrow-mindedness too.

I have a dream. One day we will all be emotionally identical, thanks to the power of medicine.
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:18   #154
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Originally Posted by dockap View Post
and about whats un natural about being gay-
from the smallest single cell organism to the largest-blue wale and smartest animal-man primary function is to reproduce so that the species continues to thrive
But it's not always through sex between male & female - Asexual reproduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As an aside, have you lost the fullstop key & shift key in your keyboard?

Last edited by carboy : 5th July 2009 at 08:20.
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:24   #155
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A better title ?
" Indian Morality Sheds Some Inhibitions - Homosexuality is now legal "
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:27   #156
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I accept that homosexuality has been observed in nature. But so has, as I pointed out earlier, mating across species, is perfectly normal, and yet that is not allowed , and some people felt sick at me bringing up the topic.

Forget deviant behavior and poor non consenting animals . Polygamy is a way of life for several animal species. Yet is not legal for most people. By the above argument , Being natural, and a matter between consenting adults, it should obviously be allowed. Yet it is not, and is not accepted by most countries.

My point is that Just because it is natural,does not mean anything. It does not mean it is acceptable. nor does it mean that it is unacceptable.
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Nature

Last edited by greenhorn : 5th July 2009 at 08:32.
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:40   #157
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A better title ?
" Indian Morality Sheds Some Inhibitions - Homosexuality is now legal "
Even better - "Homosexuality is now legal.". Do we have to absolutely be judgemental about this?
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Old 5th July 2009, 08:48   #158
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dockap : in my previous post i said that god programed sex for reproduction and continuation of the species also he made it pleasurable so that they would want to do the act
If it was pleasurable, then the particular animal would have searched for such opportunities & worked at elongating the act. But the part about having a desire to have sex - for the pleasure it gives - is not seen in any other species to the extent & degree that is seen with humans.

Do go back & check in the same field you have referred to : the act & frequency is most often way below what's found with humans. The act of copulation is sometimes a mere few seconds in some cases.

With humans, the extent to which this programming propagation of species looks to have assumed extra large proportions, so much that our population is exploding .. but that's going into a different direction of discussion.

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dockap : animals need to reproduce at every given chance cause in the wild only 5 to 10 % of the offspring will reach adulthood to continue the cycle of reproduction
yes, that's why they also have a shorter reproduction cycle & multiple off-spring in the same litter is more the norm than the exception, unlike with humans.

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dockap : there should be a balance in new life and death
Sustainability. Pls refer back to our (TBHP) earlier discussion about population control.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ontribute.html (A solution to our population problem, Please contribute.)

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dockap : like wise in animals you will observe the stronger males have more females cause they can protect them and their offspring(they dont need money )
A result of Survival of the fittest. The weak would have got reduced. Not becuase the stronger ones domniate & snare all opportunities for themselves, a la greed.

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dockap : hope you understand .. why homosexual behaviour is un natural in humans and animals alike
No, I did not. Can you clarify ?
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ballkey : Even better - "Homosexuality is now legal.". Do we have to absolutely be judgemental about this?
@ballkey, not about being judgemental. Even though the ruling is there, it does not mean that the society is going to welcome & accept gays with open arms & a hug to boot.

Last edited by condor : 5th July 2009 at 08:51.
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:03   #159
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@Condor: Well I was referring to the title, and your recommended change. This community is diverse, opinionated(however bigoted some may seem to others) and is obviously divided over the issue. So keeping in mind this community's democratic spirit, I think it's only fair to avoid references to morality(in the title), and thereby asserting one side has a higher moral ground than others.

Last edited by ballkey : 5th July 2009 at 09:04. Reason: minor change
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:06   #160
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Lot of people are saying natural order in the animal kingdom.
Also sex is for reproduction and all.
If we go by that, the best way to increase population is for a strong male to thrash weaker males and have sex with the females with them.
This was its is insured that weaker dna does not go further in the species.
I am sure if that natural order started happening, you will definitely want a law against this natural order.
So this is hypocritical, wanting "natural order" on one side, and at the same time wanting laws to protect you from stronger members of your species.
Whether homosexuality is a diesease or not is debatable. Maybe after 10 years it can be conclusively proved as a disease, or maybe its proved as natural.
But there are people here who are talking as if they did a PhD in a subject.
What shocks me even more that people are upset about what is done in bedrooms, and are bringing up all kinds of excuses to justify their prejudice.
Admit it. We all have prejudices. Even I do have many prejudices. We do not need to abuse someone to be sick or diseased just to justify "faith" or "belief".

So unless you have some kind of proof that it is a disease, the statement carries little weight. Its same as people of some religion saying that people of other religion will go to hell. Statements based on faith work in religious places, but a law has to be based on truth and justice.
Even if its a disease(which nobody knows), you cannot criminalize somebody for it.
Its like the olden days when lepers were thrown to an island to die.
What this discussion shows that still people want to put people with sickness way for good

Last edited by tsk1979 : 5th July 2009 at 09:07.
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:13   #161
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Hate to point this out. You Dear Sir, are sounding exactly like that group called the Taliban. I am sure you like all other civilized people do not accept the Taliban's views and policies.
Boss, he never said anything about beheading or shooting gay people at point blank range. If you want to ride the wave, fine, you are entitiled to it, but don't bring groups whom no one wants to be associated with it in the picture.
Having said that, did you watch the interview on a noted channel where Sri Baba Ramdevji Maharaj was debating with a social activist. The comparer was pleading not to choose words, which were not acceptable to their standards. Now that is something!

I want to present here, what 'our' Creator thinks about Homosexuality.
He is the One who created everything here and has laid down some rules to enjoy/lead life. If those rules are abided,then there will be peace serenity and reward in Paradise.

Call Him Allah/God/Bhagwaan/ whatever you like, but he created an gave us life and rules to lead it. Just like we buy a car, we get an instruction manual with it. We fill petrol in the tank and water in the radiator.
If someone opposes these basic rules, and pours petrol in the radiator and water in the tank the supposed car will not function properly and there will be disharmony amongst the blokes who paid the moolah!

Similary, God has given us life and we should value every second of it and try, try, to live it in accordance to 'The Creator's' rules.

Here is what He has to say:
Quote:
Islam teaches that homosexual acts are sinful and punishable by God. This teaching comes not from human beings, but from the Creator of all humans. God tells us in His own words how He punished the people of Lot for their homosexual behaviour.
The story of prophet Lot, on whom be peace, finds mention in several Qur'anic passages, especially Chapter 26:160-175 which reads:
"The people of Lut rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear (God)? "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust. "So fear God and obey me. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings." "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might Most Merciful."

From these passages we learn that God saved Lot and the righteous ones of his family, and rained on the rest a shower of brimstone, so they were utterly destroyed. This is mentioned in the Qur'an not only for the sake of information, but mainly to serve as a warning to anyone who dares to repeat such acts.
Muslim believe that every human action leads to consequences. Good actions entail good results, and evil actions entail evil consequences. Some of these consequences may not become known for many years after a certain action. The consequences of some actions will become manifest only after death when one enters a new, everlasting life.... A common mistake among humans is that if they don't see any negative consequences for their actions they consider it harmless. Human experience has taught us that a source of superior knowledge can be of tremendous benefit to humans.... God, the source of all knowledge, warns us of His punishment if people perpetrate homosexual acts. Let us pay attention and learn the easy way.
Some will say that a person may be born with homosexual tendencies. We say that everyone is a free agent. God lays before us two paths and has given us knowledge of where these paths lead. One is the path to which the devil call us. We must avoid that. One is the path leading to paradise. We must stick to that one. Everyone experiences evil prompting from time to time. We must resist those with all our might. If one feels a tendency to do something that God prohibits, he or she should seek help from a community of loving, caring, believers who would understand his or her difficulty and help him or her overcome it.
A common ploy of the devil is to convince people that they cannot avoid sin. Then they do not even try. But God promises that the devil can have no lasting power over those who sincerely seek God (see Qur'an 15:42)
Finally, our bodies are given to us in trust from God. One should not use his or her body contrary to the user guide provided by its Maker. Consenting adults also need God's consent.
Pasted from, What does Islam say about homosexuality?
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:23   #162
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Islam teaches that homosexual acts are sinful and punishable by God.
pervez, that is exactly my point too. it is punishable by god,not the government. And what your god (who incidentally is the same as mine ) says is wrong does not apply to others. It would not be correct to assert our religious principles on others. If you feel that your god will punish them, let him. It is not for you or me, or our government to take up his work.

Last edited by greenhorn : 5th July 2009 at 09:25.
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:35   #163
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
If you feel that your god will punish them, let him. It is not for you or me, or our government to take up his work.
Well said greenhorn.
And meanwhile please do not make this discussion religious
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Old 5th July 2009, 09:36   #164
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
It would not be correct to assert our religious principles on others. If you feel that your god will punish them, let him.
Exactly bro. Peace be on everybody. What one does in his or her bedroom is not your or my prerogative. Even though i don't subscribe to the ideology, i respect every individual's choice, preference & way of living. And thats what this topic is all about.

Legality has nothing to do with Religion, they are poles apart.

I hail and respect the judgement as its a small progressive step towards freedom of an individual in a democratic multi-cultural multi-linguistic country like ours.
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Old 5th July 2009, 10:08   #165
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Wow, you guys argued throughout the night. But I can understand.

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Let me make an original effort at a joke, Sam thinks I am incapable of making one.

Q: Why did Alexandar the Great stop short of entering India?
A: He was wary of article 377.

Last edited by Samurai : 5th July 2009 at 10:09.
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