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Old 14th July 2009, 21:47   #256
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And to add to what I said earlier
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Exactly. To many, abortion is murder. Both on an ethical and religious level. To some it is a matter of choice. Both viewpoints co-exist.
But does anyone think abortion is a crime that needs to be punished in court of law?
Yes. A lot do. They would be among the many who subscribe to the pro life viewpoint.
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Old 15th July 2009, 10:58   #257
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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
All those opposing the viewpoint of the HC and the SC, please think about it. What if there was a social taboo about flying kites? And the police got after you in the park while you were doing exactly that? And harassed you, put you in jail etc. Almost the same case with our gay friends. They cannot help being gay and are being harassed for it. That they need not be now is what Sam and the others are happy about.

Now whether the LGBT community is wrong in being gay is another question - something none of us have the authority to pass judgement on.
Perfect.

I feel exactly the same way.

I will fully support the right to choose.
Even if the choice made is not in accordance with my beliefs.
As long as such a choice is not causing any harm to anyone.
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Old 15th July 2009, 11:17   #258
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I'm not sure - don't have any pets myself. But I imagine an unrestrained animal's objection to anything would be obvious - pretty much the same reactions if you tried to kill it or harm it. I don't think it would be able to testify in court about it though
Your last line is the only sentence that made sense to me.

After writing the above you still equate it to the sexuality shown by humans?
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Old 15th July 2009, 11:57   #259
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how do you know that all discussions on this thread are by straights. Nobody has to declare about their sexual preference before making a statement. What weight will it add to any of the postings in this thread if it adds a line "oh by the way, I am gay".

The ruling will help ease their fears. Coming out of closet, nope, that's because of social stigma and nothing has changed there.
Because I would like a peek in to their minds. And because I don't know or have any gay friends. (To put it correctly, I don't know if any of my friends are gay). Also because if the view is from a gay person, it would help me to read it with a fresh, unbiased mind. As long as I know the opposing opinion is not coming from the affected party, I will read it through the tinted glass of my own opinion.

They can voice their own opinion in this forum by remaining faceless, by assuming a new alias if necessary. If they can't "come out of the closet" even in anonymity and will present their pov only through proxies, I don't think there is any way forward for them.

BTW, why did you use the term "straights" instead of something else? Does it not imply gays are "not straight" or are deviant, perhaps?
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Old 15th July 2009, 12:01   #260
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
After writing the above you still equate it to the sexuality shown by humans?
After all, it is the same sexuality, isn't it - whether it be for reproduction or recreation

Or are you implying that human sexuality is different from those of animals
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Old 15th July 2009, 12:20   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
After all, it is the same sexuality, isn't it - whether it be for reproduction or recreation
Homosexuality is not about reproduction or recreation or pleasure. Its about an individuals preference. And that preference arises from his/her mental and physical state.

Coming to animals how do you guage their preference and consent?

Your point earlier about the reaction of an animal when it realises its going to be harmed should be equated to their reaction to sexual advances by a human?? is so absurd. LOL.

And then you say you have never had a pet or have knowledge about animals.

Quote:
Or are you implying that human sexuality is different from those of animals
You tell me? LOL.
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Old 15th July 2009, 12:33   #262
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Coming to animals how do you guage their preference and consent?

Your point earlier about the reaction of an animal when it realises its going to be harmed should be equated to their reaction to sexual advances by a human?? is so absurd. LOL.
How differently so you suppose it would react? IF i have to outline it, i don't know - it might bark or bite or peck or scratch or whatever - and certainly not stand still happily as it would if you were feeding or petting it
Quote:
And then you say you have never had a pet or have knowledge about animals.
Of course I do have experience with animals, Just that i don't claim to be an expert. I can be wrong, then do correct me. I would like to know what the truth is. Saying that I am wrong, and leaving it at that still does not make you right.
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You tell me? LOL.
I don't think so , since it is from the same source - nature or evolution or instinct or god as you see fit.
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Old 15th July 2009, 12:58   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
How differently so you suppose it would react?
Oh man. Ok let me try.

Lets agree on some points first.

1. Wild animals are different from domesticated animals.

I think we dont have a case with regards to zoosexuality with animals in the wild. Let me know if you do. I will try and elaborate further but suffice to say for now that you are another animal to that creature even though your intention may be to make love to it. Survival in the wild is the utmost importance to any wild animal. And any advance towards it by a species of another kind will be looked upon as an attack.

2. Domesticated animals - Behaviour is not constant. It depends upon the breed, the surroundings and the way it looks at human beings.

It probably wont know how to react if a human makes well... sexual advances towards it. Depending upon its environment it will react differently, this also depends upon the species.

So if one dosent react dosent mean it consents to it. Sometimes you need to teach domesticated animals to mate with their own. Understand this point?

Quote:
Of course I do have experience with animals, Just that i don't claim to be an expert.
I am no expert too. But most of this is commonsense.

Why animals, lets take babies as an example. They show animal instincts - need for food, water and shelter. Do you think a reaction of a baby to sexual advances will be thought as favourable if it does not react?

Oh man i am feeling bad about typing all this. But your point about equating zoosexuality to homosexuality is so crazy.

Quote:
I can be wrong, then do correct me.I would like to know what the truth is. Saying that I am wrong, and leaving it at that still does not make you right.
Ok i tried.

Quote:
I don't think so , since it is from the same source - nature or evolution or instinct or god as you see fit.
Your assumption follows that there is no difference between animals and humans or between various species present on the Earth. That itself is false.

About God or not. Lets not get into it. Lets keep it scientific.

Last edited by Spitfire : 15th July 2009 at 13:01.
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Old 15th July 2009, 13:16   #264
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Note From MOD- Please stick to the Topic i.e. of rights of Homosexuals & The HC Judgment. Any other OT post would be deleted. Thanks
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Old 15th July 2009, 13:25   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
wondering why no one has brought up killing of sperms so far.
If we bring up killing of sperms then killing of plants should be added too.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I think that Indian courts are getting out of track because they forgot their job. They even forgot why they are present.
Disagree, the higher courts are trying to do their best to decide cases.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
A few facts :

1) I think we have too many cases that need more attention that this issue. There are many many issues and cases pending, so why not focus on them rather than an issue that itself is not a crime.
The courts did not bring up this issue rather it was a petition from Naaz Foundation which was brought up some years ago and was dismissed by the Delhi High court as according to the court petitioner had no locus standi. After an appeal to the Supreme court which ordered the HC to hear the petition this case was finally heard.This was a crime before this order. The reason why the courts have to decide such issues because our parliament didn't look in to amending laws which are outdated while other countries did so. If the parliament had done the job on time we would have been saved from all this discussion.

Ofcourse media is making sure that this issue remains in the headline.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2) Court is meant to deliver justice if somebody has committed crime and not for delivering justice that are not crime in the first place.
Court's duty is also to review laws/statue/orders which violate the Constitution of this country. It can always declare any law null and void.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
3) I wonder why no statement came from Supreme court when money was brought into parliament of world's largest democracy.
AFAIk this issue was brought up in the court and the Central Govt replied in this regard as a PIL was filed in this respect.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
4) I wonder why they never comment on dowry system. Daily in news paper I read " one lady gets burned from stove ". Joke. Actually they lady was deliberately set on fire for dowry, etc. I have seen one case personally when my mother was hospitalized a few years ago.
One has to take the case of to the court, it cant come down and track each and every case. Ofcourse we have enough judgements which have very critical comments on this system.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
5) I would say that the following quote
This issue was also raised in the court, will have to search on this. I think the court has already called for changes in law which is the duty of the parliament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
6) I never knew that certain things have to be legal. I hope that breathing is legal too.
Hire a lawyer he will surely enlighten you.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
What I believe is this : gay-ism is not a crime, so why did court come in ? Those who are gay never hurt others, so where did they commit crime so big that SC has to find time for " verdict " ?
Any such act was crime in India, thats the reason this petition came in.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
For religion ? In India there are multiple religions, so do the judges have knowledge of all the religions ? Are we operating by religion books ? No religion gives a thumbs up for corruption, but still its rampant in India at each and every step.
Judicial system has nothing to do with religion, only one thing drives the court, that is the Constitution and other laws(if they dont violate the constitution)

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I am getting worried what will happen to this nation as we, as a nation, are not able to concentrate on real issues. God help my India.
+1

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
My point is , most of the arguements which favor homosexuality apply to zoosexuality as well. And i find people who support one and find the other sickening highly inconsistent.
No, it doesnt. Here we are dealing with human beings who are perfectly able to consent to the act.


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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
They are not too different, and yet people who bring forth all these arguements in favour of homosexuality somehow turn a blind eye to zoosexuality.
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
As a person who does not accept either, I find this stand quite amusing. Its like a progressive citizen from the 19th century saying I am willing to accept that women were eligible to vote, but not slaves ( how can they? they are not free men!!)
Absurd comparison IMO, so you think animals and slaves are the same, we are dealing with two different species in which one can dominate the other and the weaker species has no right or legal remedy.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Obviously, I'm not trying to support zoosexuality here, but just trying to draw a few parallels. Most people seem to be missing the point.
Drawing parallel between whom, Humans and Animals.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I guess even those who favour change can still tolerate only incremental change
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
I'm not sure - don't have any pets myself. But I imagine an unrestrained animal's objection to anything would be obvious - pretty much the same reactions if you tried to kill it or harm it. I don't think it would be able to testify in court about it though
It would be obvious for the Human but not the animal, can animal consent, can he go and testify that the act was with my own will and not forced upon. Imagine a goat saying "maaaaaih" in the court what does the court decipher, yes or no.

Last edited by Technocrat : 15th July 2009 at 13:30. Reason: Only two smilier per post allowed. Thanks
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Old 15th July 2009, 14:24   #266
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I would like to respond, but I cannot. Maybe another place, another time.
Good day gentlemen, and let the discussion continue

Last edited by greenhorn : 15th July 2009 at 14:27.
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Old 15th July 2009, 18:24   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post

BTW, why did you use the term "straights" instead of something else? Does it not imply gays are "not straight" or are deviant, perhaps?
I have learnt both the terms from media. Give me another relevant term and I will consider using it.
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Old 15th July 2009, 22:08   #268
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
wondering why no one has brought up killing of sperms so far.
You'd have to jail almost the entire male population then. Think about it.
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Old 16th July 2009, 11:15   #269
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
I have learnt both the terms from media. Give me another relevant term and I will consider using it.
I have been using the term "non-gays" in my posts, so as not to offend any gays present, just in case.
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Old 16th July 2009, 13:07   #270
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post

BTW, why did you use the term "straights" instead of something else? Does it not imply gays are "not straight" or are deviant, perhaps?
Because thats general accepted term that's used to describe the majority who are not Gay.
I guess what is does imply, is that the "straight " people are in a majority in nature, and therefore called that.

Why stop at Non Gay?? Why not Non hetrosexual na?
We can take being pc to some ridiculuous levels at times.
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