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Old 16th July 2009, 13:58   #271
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I will take this on a one-2-one basis with you and you only, Sam. I hope Greenhorn or someone else will not jump in to answer my questions before you have answered. I tried my best as well to refrain from commenting, but couldn't stop myself somehow.

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
I tried not to comment as it has been many days, but there is something I must ask you.

I think perhaps you have misunderstood the ruling. It does not say "It's OK to be gay" or encourages homosexuality, it merely says "If you are gay it's not a crime"

Sam, read carefully. "It is not a crime to be gay" says "It's okay to be gay". If this is not so, I believe almost everyone has misunderstood the point on this very thread. Everyone is preaching here "Hey, look, I'm Indian, & I'm with Gay" (Poor Peter Russell joke). But in this charade to come out in support of them, why are we forgetting that this is not natural. If it is, then there are many other points which should also be legalized, which I'll discuss a little later in this post

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Forget about people who support homosexuality. It is inconsequential. In fact I'm going to be brave enough to say that the pages of argument about homosexuality are all inconsequential.

Let us, purely for argument's sake, assume that homosexuality is in fact a despicable mental disease. Perhaps even a curable condition. That all people that think like me are completely wrong.

I quote you again for emphasis

""Agreed, no matter what we say, for some people it will remain a mental condition, social disease, blablabla.""

Given2fly, do you think anyone with a mental disease should go to jail for this? That his or her crime in the eyes of the law should be that they have a mental condition that harms no other human being?
First thing first, my opinion about this rather unique or different way of living is not of a punishing one. If they are staying in their own groups, I'm okay with that, as long as they don't bring out their uniqueness to wherever they go. That is exactly what is happening here. They love to show off that exact thing, bring around their rather absurd behavior to the places they go, mostly in a very imposing manner. Like wearing pink, silver, extra bright shades (thinking of transsexuals, sex converts, anyone?), being overtly feminine, getting too touchy thinking that most men are gay if they look their way. I've been in such situation and they are not at all fun, being approached by a gay. No, I don't dress their way, neither do I have their mannerism.

Anyway, I won't classify them all in that category but I'm here talking about the majority which unfortunately falls in that group. What they in their bedroom is none of my business, but when they start becoming a group and imposing in their ways, I'm dead against legalizing such line of thoughts.

Secondly, do you think that people in following acts are also as good & acceptable as being gay. Consider this, these are all private activities and not usually brought out in public, absolutely not in Indian society, since we are talking about India here.

1. Sexual Orgies
2. Incest
3. Adultery
4. Multiple spouses
5. Marijuana
6. Cocaine, Xtacy.
7. Pimping (Since this is a matter of personal choice to use them or not)
8. Drug-peddlers and bars like the ones there are in Amsterdam but nowhere else in world that I know about
9. Nudist colonies
10. Suicide clinics
11. Jhad-phoonk / Occult
12. Pornography


I'm not listing many others that I can't remember right now. Most of the above are absolutely private activities and I vote for most of them to be legalized if this be legalized. After all, what harm is done as long as they are mostly personal preferences or beliefs and not a social norm & practiced in private & by consenting adults.

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Because if you despise this ruling, then one can only assume you want gay people to be punished in the court of law. That you believe that homosexuality is a felony that needs to be awarded prison bars. Do you?

You are free however, to despise homosexuality itself and even the homosexual people. You would not be alone in this sentiment.
I am not asking them to be put behind bars. But legalizing this aspect of human relations will only intensify their public exposure and so called right to life. Please remember, there are many thing we consider unholy or unworthy of common acceptance based on faith, past, medical science facts & morals found & established through centuries of evolution. That is the very thing that differentiate us from animals. Animal rights are good in their own place, but there is a basic difference between an animal and humans who have evolved to become what we are today. We have filtered out a lot of things that happen in animals kingdom due to our constant self-evaluation & improvement. Just because every now and then, there is one pro-something group comes up, we may as well shun everything we have done so far and go back to the pre-wheels era, when we didn't have a language, no mean to roam around than our feet & eat raw food and do pretty much anything we want to do. Why care making laws and following them.
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Old 16th July 2009, 14:04   #272
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Thank you given2fly.
I needed that laugh on such a deary day in office.

Last edited by bblost : 16th July 2009 at 14:14.
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Old 16th July 2009, 14:13   #273
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+1

That just ended my post lunch office slumber

In retrospect, I think all morality or policing is a great economic stimulus - it creates jobs, whether sarbox auditors, morality police, gay right activists/haters etc etc. America needs more morality in times of slowdown such as these.
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Old 16th July 2009, 14:35   #274
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I feel it has a lot to do with one's social conditioning embedded deep within out genetic buildup. Much of our behaviour is the culmination of thousands of years of experience passed on through generations in our genetic coding.

How one responds to another being sexually is also a result of conditioning. For hundreds of thousands of years the male female sexual bond hinged primarily on the need to procreate and ensure the survival of the family line. This need to procreate engrained in most of us at the deepest (ie genetic) level makes most of us believe it only natural to be drawn toward the opposite sex.

But for quite sometime now sex also began to be indulged in for pleasure. Even the Chimps/Bolobo do!! With the pleasure principle live and thriving soon evolved the emotional bond which got entwined in sex

So when we have a group of human beings who aren't drawn to the opposite sex, who need to bond emotionally and sexually with a member of the same sex just consider that perhaps genetically they are no longer conditioned to be restricted to a choice of opposite sex only as a mate/partner in life. Most would call it an aberration but the fact remains its a real attraction and it meets a fundamental need in some people to emote and bond sexually with a person of the same sex.

That the law today discards the classification of homosexuality as a crime is only the right step ahead as it takes into cognisance the existence of a breed of individuals who psychologically and perhaps biologically are built different.

Mankind having thrived so long is not a result of laws structured by a group of people. Mankind thrives in diversity. If today that diversity the world over entails an acknowledgement of people with a different sexual bias its part of our evolution.

To those who speak of revulsion at homosexual behavior do consider that for some of us most religions practiced around every corner in our town are more disgusting than anything I can think of. To me many border on lunacy and severly dysfunctional behavior. So if homosexuals are to be banned so society is a "cleaner" place I suggest we also eliminate all religions and eradicate those who exhibit "queer" religious behavior in public.

Last edited by DKG : 16th July 2009 at 14:36.
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Old 16th July 2009, 15:41   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by given2fly View Post
I will take this on a one-2-one basis with you and you only, Sam.
OK baba, let's talk about this one on one, respectfully.

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They love to show off that exact thing, bring around their rather absurd behavior to the places they go, mostly in a very imposing manner. Like wearing pink, silver, extra bright shades (thinking of transsexuals, sex converts, anyone?), being overtly feminine, getting too touchy thinking that most men are gay if they look their way. I've been in such situation and they are not at all fun, being approached by a gay.
Sir we (as a generalized section of the human population, not one-on-one here) are men. For years we have been guilty of touching, feeling and lewd sexual comments on unknown women. Most of those women feel extremely humiliated, violated and very, very annoyed.

I repeat, not all of us, but anyone that lives in the real world will recognize this fact. I even see many disgusting men who purposely bump into women, stare at them lustily, many men even touch themselves suggestively. I've seen decent educated men stick their elbows out on flights to feel the flight attendant's behind. Horrid.

If some heterosexual men force their sexuality on unsuspecting women, then one would only assume logically that some homosexual men would do the same with men.
I also understand that the men on the receiving end would probably feel just as disgusted and humiliated as most women feel out in the real world.

It's despicable, I agree. My point is that just like every heterosexual man does not yell out "Ay chhamya aati kya" to every woman he fancies, similarly every homosexual man does not go around groping every man he sees. There are bad eggs in all groups.

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Consider this, these are all private activities and not usually brought out in public, absolutely not in Indian society, since we are talking about India here.

1. Sexual Orgies
2. Incest
3. Adultery
4. Multiple spouses
5. Marijuana
6. Cocaine, Xtacy.
7. Pimping (Since this is a matter of personal choice to use them or not)
8. Drug-peddlers and bars like the ones there are in Amsterdam but nowhere else in world that I know about
9. Nudist colonies
10. Suicide clinics
11. Jhad-phoonk / Occult
12. Pornography
Sir, we're talking about private choices that harm nobody including one's own self.

Many of those acts you have listed are not legal crimes and many harm one's own self.
A drug addict harms himself and if he sells drugs, potentially harms others around him.

Homosexuality is neither consumed, nor peddled. If you hang out with a bunch of gays, you do not become gay either.
It is a private choice that harms no one.

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I am not asking them to be put behind bars. But legalizing this aspect of human relations will only intensify their public exposure and so called right to life.
So sir, you do not want them to be put behind bars. Excellent, we agree.

But you want it to be illegal. Strange, I don't understand.

Every act in this country is binary. Legally acceptable, or legally unacceptable.

Whatever is illegal needs punishment. What legal punishment would you then suggest for being gay? A fine? A stern warning? Some sit-ups?

Or would you prefer the current punishments? (as stated in the court appeal posted earlier in this thread by setuniket)

Quote:
There was evidence indicating that during police custody he was subjected to torture by a wooden stick being inserted into his anus and some police personnel forcing him to have oral sex. The person in question immolated himself inside the police station on 12.6.2006 and later succumbed to burn injuries on 29.6.2006.
And here's another case:
Quote:
The person was picked up from a bus stand at about 10 p.m. by the police, who accused him of being a homosexual. He was physically assaulted with wooden sticks, taken to police post where he was subjected to sexual and degrading abusive language. During the incarceration in the police post over the night, four policemen actually raped and sexually abused him including forcing him to have oral and anal sex.
I'm betting that the four policemen were heterosexual and were looking for a way to humiliate the "disgusting" gay people they arrested. Because homosexuality is illegal.
And by the way, given2fly, what happened to these people is extremely traumatic humiliation (enough to scar for life) in comparison to a gay man making a pass at a straight man.

The basis of this appeal was to make it legally acceptable, so that such situations can be avoided.

If you want to support the above punishments, then there should be no change in the law and we should not legalize homosexuality.

Sir, we live in a country where the police have gang-raped women who have come to the police station to complain of an attack on their modesty. Illegality in India does not always carry a dignified and legal punishment.

Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 16th July 2009 at 15:55.
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Old 16th July 2009, 17:08   #276
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@given2fly - You make sense to me. Being gay is unnatural, inhuman and disgusting. It should not be accepted, socially or legally. I do not want to be part of a society where there is no difference between humans and animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Or would you prefer the current punishments? (as stated in the court appeal posted earlier in this thread by setuniket)

And here's another case:I'm betting that the four policemen were heterosexual and were looking for a way to humiliate the "disgusting" gay people they arrested. Because homosexuality is illegal.
And by the way, given2fly, what happened to these people is extremely traumatic humiliation (enough to scar for life) in comparison to a gay man making a pass at a straight man.

The basis of this appeal was to make it legally acceptable, so that such situations can be avoided.

If you want to support the above punishments, then there should be no change in the law and we should not legalize homosexuality.

Sir, we live in a country where the police have gang-raped women who have come to the police station to complain of an attack on their modesty. Illegality in India does not always carry a dignified and legal punishment.
There are black sheeps in our legislature, judiciary and executive. That does not make bad things right. In that case, all private bad activities should be made legal.
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Old 16th July 2009, 17:23   #277
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People dont like homosexuals to come out in to open, wearing pink shirts and bright shades. Well i have several pink t-shirts and shirts and i am not gay. I live in London, i've visited Soho often enough and i've got gay friends. Never had a problem with any sort of homosexual. Give2fly obviously has had an experience he's not happy with and i can understand that. But i guess its like what Sam says, not everyones like that.

Why do we have something against gays coming out in public and expressing themselves, doing what they feel is natural, when were totalllly fine with religious groups trying to enforce their beliefs onto others? Why doesnt the same rule apply to everyone. Its like DKG said, if someones attracted so someone else fomr the same sex, it might actually be love, who are we to say its false or unnatural, absolutely no one!!

Give2fly - you say laws are created for a reaon and we should follow them, yes? I agree, but on what basic was the law created? And how many centuries ago? What happens about all the silly laws created over the years, should we keep them too? Its because we've evolved, our laws need to evolve with us.

To be honest, Give2fly and others who support the same cause, will always belive in what they do, and others like me on here, probably wont change our beliefs over a forum either. So is there any point in going on? Its a never ending debate really.

Something to think about - How many on here have watched porn with 2 women getting it on and enjoyed it? You obviously support homosexuality if you did. If you thought it was sick, then your totally justified to stick by your disission on homeosexuality.

Last edited by Samir Taheer : 16th July 2009 at 17:28.
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Old 16th July 2009, 17:25   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceWins View Post
Being gay is unnatural, inhuman and disgusting.
Quite a strong statement that. What is your basis for uttering the above? experience? scientific know how? religious or hearsay?

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It should not be accepted, socially or legally. I do not want to be part of a society where there is no difference between humans and animals.
Which society do you belong to anyways? and no one is stopping anyone from adopting a society which he/she seems fit. We are a democratic contry and when a law is passed we believe its the voice of the majority.

Dont like it move off. But please stop pointing fingers at our society just because it doesnt fall within your model of an ideal society.

We believe in live and let live.
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Old 16th July 2009, 18:25   #279
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
We believe in live and let live.
That would be:
Live and let live whether wrong or right!
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Old 16th July 2009, 18:37   #280
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Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
whether wrong or right!
Because it would not be for any one of us to decide that.
At least as far as our nation is concerned, it would be the job of our democratically elected government
And as far as our Respective religions are concerned, it would be upto their holy books and spiritual leaders.
and i dont think that its does any good to let either party interfere in the working of the other

Last edited by greenhorn : 16th July 2009 at 18:39.
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Old 16th July 2009, 18:57   #281
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This debate has been captivating. However, one point that has been mostly overlooked is the Judiciary's role in the matter.

The masses might not be ready, the law makers might not have the political will...but it is indeed refreshing to see that the Judiciary has moved with the times.

Indeed, civic society survives on the basic premise - Law is above Morality.
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Old 16th July 2009, 21:49   #282
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Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
That would be:
Live and let live whether wrong or right!
All of us have our own beliefs of right and wrong. I am not interfering with the lives of anyone. I have just shared my belief. The statement is strong as my contempt is also strong. I did not mean to offend anyone.

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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Because it would not be for any one of us to decide that.
At least as far as our nation is concerned, it would be the job of our democratically elected government
And as far as our Respective religions are concerned, it would be upto their holy books and spiritual leaders.
and i dont think that its does any good to let either party interfere in the working of the other
A nation is made of individuals, so we should not keep mum just because we do not make decisions. The decisions are made by the politicians elected by the majority of us.We are still a democratic country where individuals have freedom of thought and speech. We are using that freedom to share our opinions here.

Last edited by PatienceWins : 16th July 2009 at 21:50.
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Old 16th July 2009, 22:13   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Because it would not be for any one of us to decide that.
At least as far as our nation is concerned, it would be the job of our democratically elected government
And as far as our Respective religions are concerned, it would be upto their holy books and spiritual leaders.
and i dont think that its does any good to let either party interfere in the working of the other
Correct sirji but look at this statement:

'We are a democratic contry and when a law is passed we believe its the voice of the majority.'

This is ruling is definitely not of the majority. Hypothetically, if we were to conduct a plebisite/poll all over India, do you really think people who support Gay marriages and things related to that, will out number the ones who are against it ? In India ? Come on think of it.
This is surely not a voice of the majority, in my 'democratic' country.
And don't anyone dare tell anyone here, who belongs to where, and where should one go. People of every community and class have made their sacrifices, for a free India. This is no ones property alone.
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Old 16th July 2009, 22:37   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
Correct sirji but look at this statement:

'We are a democratic contry and when a law is passed we believe its the voice of the majority.'

This is ruling is definitely not of the majority. Hypothetically, if we were to conduct a plebisite/poll all over India, do you really think people who support Gay marriages and things related to that, will out number the ones who are against it ? In India ? Come on think of it.
This is surely not a voice of the majority, in my 'democratic' country.
And don't anyone dare tell anyone here, who belongs to where, and where should one go. People of every community and class have made their sacrifices, for a free India. This is no ones property alone.
I believe that we've been strong armed into this by international pressure that the judges and politicians have no other option but to submit. I have strong doubts if this would ever survive a national referendum or something like that , if there ever was one.

While I will have to comply with the ruling made by an unelected judge(s), I will respect and willingly accept only the laws made by a democratically elected Legislature, preferably one I've voted for.

Last edited by greenhorn : 16th July 2009 at 22:39.
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Old 16th July 2009, 23:19   #285
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So according to you guys homosexuality should be a legal offence? Punishable by the court of law?
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