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Old 28th August 2009, 18:47   #61
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I haven't read the whole thread. but it's also high time we discuss priorities and set expectations with the young graduates.

why does one has to resort to suicide if laid off from an IT job? HR did what they could do the best. Should one take one's own life because of that?

We have turned thousands of engineers to geeky software developers, which creates a dangerous imbalance in national skills (registry, are you listening?). tomorrow if we need skilled civil and power engineers in the same numbers as IT because we decide to export energy, will be able to meet the demand in number and skill level?

and taking it to a philosophical level, I am going to teach my kids to earn a living with self respect, whether it's coding in java or growing poultry, in fact switching between them should not be a big deal.
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Old 28th August 2009, 19:07   #62
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Well when I was laid off, someone said " So what, it was just a job that paid your bills. Go and find another one!".
Some would say its taking your work non seriously, but at the end, thats what it is. Its just a means to an end. The end remains the same and the means can change based on the capabilities of a person. for some it may take a little longer than others but hey we are all skilled individuals so finding work is not an issue.

The issue I see here is the way things have been handled. Had the company been more sensitive to the situation and provided some moral and logistical (references of recruiters etc) support, things may not have gone to the level that they did.

What the IT crowd needs to learn is that our jobs are highly dependent on market conditions and expecting a private company to keep you on rolls when they can not afford to is plain foolish. There is some level on insulation in India as compared to elsewhere but hey how long can that last.

The most important thing is to ensure that the employees stand up to employer malpractices (Big issue especially in the top 4). Once the two sides figure out what is expected of them and learn to live with it, things will certainly look better.

Last edited by mohit : 28th August 2009 at 19:09. Reason: Typos
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Old 28th August 2009, 19:44   #63
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Indians make fun of Americans when they hear about things like counselling and rehab......calling them silly......accusing them of having weak family-support/bonding.

So, now what do they have to say???

Every person who is laid off or dismissed from a large corporation in the US gets some kind of counselling assistance and job search assistance.

Like Sawyer said, the American 'hire and fire' system has been implemented in India in a half baked fashion not keeping in mind the Indian culture and mindset.

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Old 28th August 2009, 20:09   #64
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Like Sawyer said, the American 'hire and fire' system has been implemented in India in a half baked fashion not keeping in mind the Indian culture and mindset.
+1. Its like our previous FM quoting about the tax percentage of US and taxing us more and more. He learnt to "collect" from people, but missed to handle it to be useful back to those from whom he collected.

Hire & fire worked there because, govt will take some care to see that the person laid off gets some interviews and even take special coaches for training them to attend interviews. Here? What is it?

Yes, it is a tuff situation when you are suddenly out of job. But life? Its easier said than done. But still, without really knowing the background, cant blame the person or HR.

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Old 28th August 2009, 20:37   #65
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In US & Europe, if you are unemployed, the Govt provides some monthly allowance for your sustainance.

In India, if you are unemployed, you are on your own!
You just have your family to back on.

And if the guy is married & with kids, availed a Home loan etc, what does he do?
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Old 28th August 2009, 21:06   #66
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May Vishal Vadav's soul rest in peace. May God give his family and friends the strength to go on.


Killing oneself usually is not planned a lot in advance. Atleast not in this case. It just takes a few seconds of insanity to do it. We can all sit comfortably in our homes, in front of our computers, with music and our A/C cooling us and comment, 'He shouldn't have done that, what a waste of life. Etc' . But the truth is he did. There are so many ways to go, he flung himself off a building, His family and friends would know it is a waste of life more than any of us! Its just a brief madness that drives people to do such things! A few months, a computer, a home, a few books? A new job? We never know what kind of commitments he had. May be had a few mouths to feed? How can we assume he even had a home? I do presume there are a lot of tough people out here, who would brave a lot of things, but there is always a breaking point for everyone. Maybe this was his. So, Kindly try not to say things like, 'I have no sympathy' for someone who kills himself for such silly issues. May times change! Peace!
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Old 28th August 2009, 21:17   #67
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Hi,

I think what happened is very tragic, unfortunate and sad thing. May god give peace to Vishal's soul.

I see that this situation is referred to as "every body at fault, but no one admits it".

1. The young boys/girls these days are not trained to face the challenges of the world in a mature or better way. Everyone is just rushing to get the degrees, often ignoring the real skills/learning needed to be successful.

2. Employers are in the pressure to turn in better results quarter on quarter. Hence they race for the talent acquisition while market is on the rise, often trying block their competitors talent acquisitions as well. But when market is on decline, these extra headcounts start to be a burden on the balance sheet, then pressured to off load these extra cost heads to project better results. Ofcourse every thing can not be planned in fast changing business, but with a bit of careful planning, hire and fire can be avoided.

3. Employees also are often in the rat race. i have seen people just running after better offers, keeping 2-3 offers with them, negotiating for still better offer, often ignoring the job content, learning, prospects etc. I have interviewed people over telephone. these people have told me that they will come for face to face interview only after i tell them how much CTC salary i will offer them. Newton's third law takes its natural course and often employers treat employees in the same way.

We as a nation and its people need to realize that we can not just enjoy the positives of the growth and integration with world economy, but has to face the negative consequences of such growth. Most of the people are not prepared for the negatives.
With bit more sensitivity by everyone involved viz. parents, students, young engineers, academic institutions. Employers, Industry body and Govt, we can manage these better.

Last word is, it is easier to preach others, but difficult to adapt when such things happen to oneself. I am also part of the herd in this sense.
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Old 29th August 2009, 07:08   #68
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We as a nation and its people need to realize that we can not just enjoy the positives of the growth and integration with world economy, but has to face the negative consequences of such growth. Most of the people are not prepared for the negatives.
Well said, but I am not sure too many people understand just how many negatives there are to be prepared for. We have seen just the tip of the iceberg in India till now. And it is not just this one death - this is a very sad thing, but small in scale. What is an epidemic is the number of Indians killing themselves slowly, but just as surely in so many other ways. Junk food and diet coke is something that is doing the same job that cigarettes do. Allied to a lifestyle that is spinning out of control, by aping the West before building the base that is sustaining their currently wasteful lifestyle. I won't even talk about credit card abuse/ other debt in the younger Indian generation that has totally forgotten that even by the time they retire, there is going to be no social security safety net for their retirement years. So maybe dying of a lifestyle disease while you are still working is a good idea after all!
And all over, we are thinking that by doing all of these things - aping the West blindly is what I call integration with the world economy - we think we are seeing the light at the end of what has been a long and dark tunnel for a few hundred years now in India. That light is the cliched headlight of another train heading towards us on the same track. Expect to see a lot more mayhem in the country in the next ten years. For the decades after that, there is hope if we change tack in the coming one.
And this so called integration - how it is going to address farmer suicides, that are the tip of the iceberg of the rural desolation in India, no one has a clue.
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Old 29th August 2009, 07:29   #69
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On second thoughts, I will take this opportunity to air a message about debt here as well.
Never a borrower or a lender be - Shakespeare, in the merchant of Venice. I also believe that buying anything on a loan is a very bad idea. About the only thing I can make an exception to this is the buying of the one house for staying in, because that is a long term asset that should outlive the loan period, and leave you with an asset you own, of significant value left in it, after the loan has been repaid. Even here, proceed very carefully and do not overspend, just because there is a loan facility. The current global recession is driven by housing loans taken and given in the most ridiculous way.
For anything else, for generations, the discipline of first earning and then spending, that has proved to be a wise one, remains so. No amount of tech/savvy marketing can suddenly turn that wisdom upside down, so I am aghast to see that today, in India, people are doing EMIs for even things like weight loss and holiday travel. No one is giving any serious thought of how they are going to live once they cannot earn anymore. Either via a recession, or by getting too old to.
And a lot of our GDP growth is being driven by such consumption. It is a bubble, and the later it bursts, the more of mayhem it will create, because burst it will.
I am not sure that this is an appropriate message for this thread or this forum, and I am probably boring 99.99% of the people that will read this. But if it changes one life, it will be worth that pain to all those people! And if it does not do even that, nothing is lost after all!
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Old 29th August 2009, 09:59   #70
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Really sad & un-necessary

Us in our 20's/30's working in the IT/BPO sector need to wake up from our dreams - it is pure economics 101 - there is no industry/sector which will continue to grow year on year like 20-30 % for such a long time - Consolidations, downturns are all part of the business & economic cycle

If we think that we are "entitled" to 30-50% wage hikes & promotions forever - good luck mate...dream on...come on...anyone with 50% + marks in XII + Rs 5-10lac of parent's cash can become a engineer now a days

Fortunately for me & many others who started career's in IT in 1999-2000 - have already been through the dot com bust & have lived & learnt through it

Quoting the CEO of a prominent BPO & I fully agree "The trouble in India is that these young employees are capitalists when it comes to growth and socialists when it comes to layoffs. Well, that’s life"
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Old 29th August 2009, 10:07   #71
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Quoting the CEO of a prominent BPO & I fully agree "The trouble in India is that these young employees are capitalists when it comes to growth and socialists when it comes to layoffs. Well, thatís life"
Yes, and the trouble with Indian CEOs is that they are capitalists when it comes to how they should be allowed to run their companies internally, but become socialists when faced with overseas competition if it is given free access to their markets, or in wanting subsidies from society to compete abroad. That's life too, because at the end of the day human nature drives everyone to take these contradictory positions. And CEOs suffer from the same failings they love to point fingers at.
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Old 29th August 2009, 14:23   #72
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How different is this from registering your passport details or PAN details?
I don't understand why do you want to defend the indefensible?

Since when did NASSCOM become a Government organization?? Aren't there ANY privacy laws in India that prevent quasi-mafia private organizations like NASSCOM from collecting and distributing personal data like its their grandfather's property?

IMHO, If the industry itself is lead by such Gestapo style organization, only god can help the Indian IT industry in the future. The Chinese must be smelling blood already.

PS: Maybe it is just bad karma.. One used to hear of employee suicides in the US, during the initial days of the outsourcing boom. I believe some US employees were handed the pink slip and then forced to transfer their knowledge to "fresh" Indian outsourced guys.

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Old 29th August 2009, 17:58   #73
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I don't understand why do you want to defend the indefensible?
I am not defending anybody. I only wanted to know why NASSCOM is blamed here. One eloquent member expert in the art of interviewing has not stated where he read the word "blacklisting" in conjunction with NASSCOM or the NSR.

OK let's blame somebody else - how about FIAT? Or better, TATA? Hyundai?

Just because somebody heard his / her friends say something, members pounce on NASSCOM?
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Old 29th August 2009, 19:08   #74
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this is indisputably correct - but Sawyer - people also have aspirations. with the availability of relatively easy credit a lot of people out there can realize their dreams.
not all of us are as well-heeled financially as we may wish to be, but that doesnt stop us from having aspirations to new cars, a nice home, good lifestyle a decent TV, fridge washing machine etc.

It is very difficult to wait, save and then buy - there is also something called peer pressure which a lot of people find very difficult to deal with - whether they admit it or not.

All I d like to say is, ideally one should "cut one's coat according to the cloth one has" and live within one's means as far as possible.

It is up to each individual to be financially responsible to himself/herself and the other stake holders like family etc.

consumers will consume as much as possible as long as they can - this is one thing that wont change in a hurry. It is visible now over the last 10 years in India - since the availability of relatively easier credit etc.
In a way it is good because this is precisely what contributed to the unprecedented growth we have seen these last 7 years.
Now we are on a SENTIMENT DOWN TURN, owing to foolishness in the Western markets etc etc. But, we and our consumer markets are still a long way away from saturation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
On second thoughts, I will take this opportunity to air a message about debt here as well.
Never a borrower or a lender be - Shakespeare, in the merchant of Venice. I also believe that buying anything on a loan is a very bad idea. About the only thing I can make an exception to this is the buying of the one house for staying in, because that is a long term asset that should outlive the loan period, and leave you with an asset you own, of significant value left in it, after the loan has been repaid. Even here, proceed very carefully and do not overspend, just because there is a loan facility. The current global recession is driven by housing loans taken and given in the most ridiculous way.
For anything else, for generations, the discipline of first earning and then spending, that has proved to be a wise one, remains so. No amount of tech/savvy marketing can suddenly turn that wisdom upside down, so I am aghast to see that today, in India, people are doing EMIs for even things like weight loss and holiday travel. No one is giving any serious thought of how they are going to live once they cannot earn anymore. Either via a recession, or by getting too old to.
And a lot of our GDP growth is being driven by such consumption. It is a bubble, and the later it bursts, the more of mayhem it will create, because burst it will.
I am not sure that this is an appropriate message for this thread or this forum, and I am probably boring 99.99% of the people that will read this. But if it changes one life, it will be worth that pain to all those people! And if it does not do even that, nothing is lost after all!
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Old 29th August 2009, 20:15   #75
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Quoting the CEO of a prominent BPO & I fully agree "The trouble in India is that these young employees are capitalists when it comes to growth and socialists when it comes to layoffs. Well, thatís life"
+1 to that.
What has happened is indeed unfortunate. May God grant peace to Vishal's soul. When will these kids understand that Suicide is not the solution to anything at all.
It is a fact that many of these overly pampered Techies would be in their mid 20's. They want the snazziest of bikes, girlfriend as a pillion rider, best cell phone and generally show off. I'm sure most(I dare say all) IT company employees have taken the career out of choice and not force. Recession and downturn happens every few years. Its a part and parcel of the economic cycle. Don't these guys know that they are not insulated from recession? That layoffs and job cuts will effect them too? Then why burden themselves with debt?
In the good times, I have seen IT engineers have 2-3 offers in hand and talking 'almost' with their feet on the table, in the interview they are asking questions like: What is the canteen menu like? Will I get cab drop at my doorstep? Which artist group do you call for your annual day event? etc. They are prepared to switch jobs at the most flimsiest of opportunities.

Here we have people blaming HR squarely for suicides. Please realize that HR folk are human beings too. Someone spoke about how do HR people sleep? Well, I can tell from experience. Its not a pleasant feeling at all. In my career in HR, I have signed numerous acceptance of resignation letters(For asked to leave cases). Its not a nice feeling. We have to console ourselves by sayings "Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it. This is what we are being paid for". No one has forced us into this profession. It is out of choice. These situations affect us too. And its not that we get some pleasure out of firing employees. We follow instructions from the top. It always ends up portraying us as the baddies. We do try to make it as soft as possible and try to re-deploy them in other internal projects. If this is not possible, we are left with no choice.
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