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Old 29th August 2009, 20:56   #76
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Originally Posted by hrag View Post
I am not defending anybody. I only wanted to know why NASSCOM is blamed here. One eloquent member expert in the art of interviewing has not stated where he read the word "blacklisting" in conjunction with NASSCOM or the NSR.

OK let's blame somebody else - how about FIAT? Or better, TATA? Hyundai?

Just because somebody heard his / her friends say something, members pounce on NASSCOM?
Are Bhaiya,

Nothing is said explicitly , NASSACOM runs background checks and prepares a report which will be shared to prospective employers ( Of course with candidates consent).
So suppose I work in organisation X and the HR of X threatens openly to give wrong or negative comments in my background verification report I am left with two choices.

1. If prospective employer Y is user of this NASSACOM service and asks for my concent for this report , I should flately refuse and create doubts in minds of next employer.
2. Give concent and just prey that they do not head to negative feedback from X.

I am somehow not convinced that they will not pay dirty tricks and will never - ever give any negative reports in background check out of malice.

My lack of trust is based on my personal experience with number one indian IT company which is most ethical of the bunch but still played dirty when I left them and Joind MOtorola in 1999 after settling all teh dues and paying the bond amount with a demand draft.

To add icing to cake as per dataquest Wipro announced to maintain it's own negative list / blacklist and share with industry.

I am not sure how people are living with invasion of provacy and this kind of black mail tool. If I was the one who is affected I would have definately sued Wipro for atleast 1 carore defamation case ( Amount limited to 1Cr, as my libaility money in loosing the case come to 10% that is 10 Lakh which is max I can affort)

Read here the dataquest link and search for Wipro in longish article.

Dataquest : Spotlight : Fake it Not

Quoted below
"Wipro has also flagged a unique initiative to curb the menace spreading across the industry. It has started a database of applicants with fake resumes and is sharing it with its peers in the industry. The idea is to create a pool of fake CVs and share them across companies so that the industry is insulated. The fake CV database, with hundreds of names is already being shared with at least two of the top five domestic IT giants, and Wipro is in talks with at least ten more of its peers to seek a feasible solution. So the industry stands united on this issue and is going all out to keep away dubious people from their premises."

Though NASSACOM DB is not a blacklist but white list itself provides enough room to dirty tricks department of IT companies
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Old 29th August 2009, 21:52   #77
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Can the mods correct the title as "Another techie commits suicide" please.

Back in the days when HR Managers were called "Personnel Managers", they had a more human face. Now they seem to consider humans as just that - a resource. I am talking of all organizations, including mine, and I don't work in the IT sector. So much so, that employees consider them as hatchet men of the management. As some one already mentioned, I have never heard of a HR man laid off so far.

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Old 30th August 2009, 17:16   #78
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In the good times, I have seen IT engineers have 2-3 offers in hand and talking 'almost' with their feet on the table, in the interview they are asking questions like: What is the canteen menu like? Will I get cab drop at my doorstep? Which artist group do you call for your annual day event? etc. They are prepared to switch jobs at the most flimsiest of opportunities.
So is that illegal? Its just people taking advantage of demand-supply skew. Thats how the whole capitalist system runs. What I am questioning here is not whether laying off is justified, but whether it is done in a legally and morally correct way.

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Here we have people blaming HR squarely for suicides. Please realize that HR folk are human beings too. Someone spoke about how do HR people sleep?
Please realize that Mafia goons are human beings too.. But does that justify their illegal actions? When people commit suicide as a direct result of the HR person holding a proverbial gun on the person's head and asking him/her to resign, who else can we blame?
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Old 31st August 2009, 06:48   #79
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this is indisputably correct - but Sawyer - people also have aspirations. with the availability of relatively easy credit a lot of people out there can realize their dreams.

not all of us are as well-heeled financially as we may wish to be, but that doesnt stop us from having aspirations to new cars, a nice home, good lifestyle a decent TV, fridge washing machine etc.

It is very difficult to wait, save and then buy - there is also something called peer pressure which a lot of people find very difficult to deal with - whether they admit it or not.

All I d like to say is, ideally one should "cut one's coat according to the cloth one has" and live within one's means as far as possible.

It is up to each individual to be financially responsible to himself/herself and the other stake holders like family etc.

consumers will consume as much as possible as long as they can - this is one thing that wont change in a hurry. It is visible now over the last 10 years in India - since the availability of relatively easier credit etc.
In a way it is good because this is precisely what contributed to the unprecedented growth we have seen these last 7 years.
Now we are on a SENTIMENT DOWN TURN, owing to foolishness in the Western markets etc etc. But, we and our consumer markets are still a long way away from saturation!
Easy credit is the root cause of the problem - if it were hard for all, there would be less of peer pressure, because all would be in the same boat.

And very few people are born well heeled financially. And of those who get to be so, they do not do this because of easy credit and free spending. Some of them actually get to be so, by getting others to fall into that trap!
What applies to people, applies to countries. The affluent ones you see built their affluence on a couple of generations willing to slog an entire lifetime working productively, as the Japanese did or the Koreans did, and using their savings to create more capability to produce more wealth, not by buying the things they may buy as affluent societies today. The generations that slogged were not averse to postponing such purchases to the next generation - we are spending what ever little we create even before we create it. No harm in the washing machines etc., but not where buying it takes you into a negative equity situation is all I am saying here. I would also argue that buying labour saving appliances on EMIS, and then going to lose the consequent weight gain to a fancy gym on EMIs, is the silliest thing I have seen people do.

And it is very hard to be financially responsible when the sellers of easy credit abound as they do in India today - abound, as in credit card agents approaching all and sundry at airports, as just one example. I will give you another - I am scrupulous about always paying 100% of the amount due on my credit card. I was once approached my issuer to accept refund of a check I had sent, after deducting the minimum amount due! And it is this hard selling of credit that also creates the ridiculous peer pressure to buy, buy, buy. That pressure is getting more and more people into the mess.
I believe that the unprecedented growth was unhealthy, and is not sustainable. It is biting back now with some pain, and if we get over it, and the growth comes back and stays to be of the same nature, that effect the next time it collapses, will be a lot worse, with a lot more of urban suicides to compete with the rural ones.

That time, it will not be any pleasure to tell people - I told you so. So one does what one can. Most people ignore this, because one only takes advice after one's fingers have been badly burnt. But if the advice sticks to some small part of the wall, it is still worth the giving.
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Old 31st August 2009, 07:10   #80
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Exactly Sawyer. I too settle my card dues fully each month, and the reps of the issuers have called up a couple of times to "encourage" me to settle only the minimum amount due and not "stress" myself financially! The only loans I had ever taken were from my employer, that too for buying a home as well as for replacing my bikes a couple of times. Just when I was thinking of buying a car, my employer did away with all loan facilities, so I decided to save up for it. It took me a lot of time due to various re-locations, and I could finally do it only now. But I am stress free, no emi to worry about. And it was great to see the words "not applicable" in the hypothecation column of my RC book, I tell you!
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Old 31st August 2009, 07:43   #81
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But I am stress free, no emi to worry about. And it was great to see the words "not applicable" in the hypothecation column of my RC book, I tell you!
I know the feeling. And no keeping track of the post dated checks in your check book for 48 months! Its good that all it took you to get out of this trap was a couple of bikes. Also, whatever other issues you may have had with that employer, I am sure you are blessing him today for doing away with the loan facility - When it was actually taken away, you might not have!
As I said, till now in India, a house has been the one thing I would not frown on taking a loan for. Till now, because that is an asset that has always appreciated, so one is always in a state of positive equity.
Today, I would be very careful of taking a loan for that too. Because of two reasons, that feed on each other.
One, the security of a job over the term of the loan is getting to be lesser and lesser. One needs to know how one is going to pay the EMIs for up to year, without a monthly salary income, at any time in one's life. Given that we are now going to be globally integrated into the 5-7 years boom and bust cycles.
And two, there is now a likelihood of drop in house values. We are just beginning to see this trend, and it will take some time for it to become a regular feature, but this is how trends look at the beginning. For a long terms house loan, the certainty of being left with positive equity looks a lot less that it looked just three years ago. What this means is to limit the investment to what one can maintain, and not take a bigger house just because the EMIs look reasonable, particularly if they are structured in such a way that they start off small.
And once the bigger house, the need to fill it with things. Obtained by EMIs. The Parkinsons law of road widening kicks in here as well!
PS: I think that rep calls of the kind you and I refer to, should be made a criminal offence, as offering a longer term inducement to committing suicide.

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Old 31st August 2009, 10:35   #82
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Also, whatever other issues you may have had with that employer, I am sure you are blessing him today for doing away with the loan facility - When it was actually taken away, you might not have!
limit the investment to what one can maintain, and not take a bigger house just because the EMIs look reasonable, particularly if they are structured in such a way that they start off small.
And once the bigger house, the need to fill it with things. Obtained by EMIs. The Parkinsons law of road widening kicks in here as well!
PS: I think that rep calls of the kind you and I refer to, should be made a criminal offence, as offering a longer term inducement to committing suicide.
I never bemoaned the withdrawal of loan facility as I knew it to be a blessing in disguise. We never had to look outside for a loan, our employer gave all the loans - housing loan, vehicle loan - you name it, at much beter terms. It was withdrawn due to financial difficulties of the company. Even then they were withdrawn prospectively, the existing loans were allowed to run their term. Since the housing loan amounted to a few crore rupees, it was transferred to HDFC. This would amount to an increase in our emi - because the company used to recover the principal amount alone for 160 months, and the accrued interest will be recovered in the subsequent 80 months. But with HDFC both would run concurrently, interest rate would be higher as well as floating. The Union naturally objected to this, so it was agreed that the employer would continue to recover the amount as before, make good the difference for each employee due to the increase in emi (a subsidy, effectively) and pay HDFC each month. The only drawback was those who had not availed a housing loan till that point lost out.

BTW the price I paid for my apartment was less than the price I paid for my Alto now!

Calling up people to encourage them to run up debts should indeed be made a criminal offence. Postponig wish fullfilment is a virtue, but is actually made out to be a vice now a days. So was serving long term with an employer. Not any more. Today the attitude of most young employees is purely mercenary.

Getting bigger and bigger loans for buying a hoime pushes up the rent too. Because everyone who lets out a house will tend to fix the rent @ emi + X amount.

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Old 31st August 2009, 10:38   #83
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So its not the employer who pushed the employee to suicide but his own wish to live a better life?
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Old 31st August 2009, 20:19   #84
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Originally Posted by hrag View Post
Well, nobody forces you to enrol in the NSR. So why blame NASSCOM
Says who?? IBM and Accenture have made it 'mandatory' to register for NSR, as per letter from NASSCOM to the companies. That's by force, and not choice.

I work for IBM and wife, Accenture.
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Old 31st August 2009, 21:06   #85
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OK, so what's wrong with that? I still don't understand why NASSCOM is under fire here.

If the HR of a company, and that's a big IF, threatened to blacklist you under a skills registry, and you attempt / commit suicide due to whatever reason, the blame lies on the skills registry? Or the organization running it? One that's trying to curb the menace of fake resumes?

You learn something new on this forum everyday
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Old 31st August 2009, 21:15   #86
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Originally Posted by hrag View Post

You learn something new on this forum everyday
and that's good for you .


We are talking about blackmailing in the name of blacklisting names. Are you able to put yourself in shoes of a person who has been told to work as directed or else he will be blacklisted in a database which is now used as a benchmark by many companies?
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Old 31st August 2009, 21:31   #87
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and that's good for you .
Oh dear!

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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
We are talking about blackmailing in the name of blacklisting names. Are you able to put yourself in shoes of a person who has been told to work as directed or else he will be blacklisted in a database which is now used as a benchmark by many companies?

Which person has been told to work as directed or else, dear sir? Is there a new browser that helps people read between the lines?

Where has the thread initiator vanished, by the way?

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Originally Posted by Superleggera View Post
I heard from many of my friends..
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Old 31st August 2009, 21:41   #88
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I feel while a registry of such sort can help to some extent (but never eradicate), lack of tough safe guards/policy will ensure this is used to 'settle scores' as it were!

And 'settling scores' happens all the time in all companies - giving access to a registry such as this will further strengthen the wrong hands - in other words it will ONLY do more harm than ANY good in the long run! I don't want to run down the HR profession - but like someone mentioned - things have gone way south from the 'Personnel Manager' days! There was a survey done by one of the most respected research firms in the world amongst the top 100 companies of the world, where they were asked to rate the departments as useful or useless wrt to their contribution to the organisation - only 7 % rated HR as a useful department! This survey was neither initiated not conducted by me - so please dont flame me!

If a company is so interested in the integrity of a resume - there are organisations which do exactly that for a fee. Over 90% of what's on a resume can be verified in a matter of a few telephone calls! The qualifications can take some more time - but still do-able. Most universities have updated list of roll numbers of successful candidates after say year 2000, on CDs.

You are likely to see more tangible benefits if the recruiters are imparted professional training in HOW to conduct an interview and how to look for and thru the obvious, assess, and 'select' a candidate!

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Old 31st August 2009, 21:54   #89
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I see that there is lot of blaming going on,
a few blaming the IT companies
a few blaming the HR & recruiters
a few blaming the managers

but let us step back an think for a while

1. Private enterprises exists for the sole purpose of generating wealth for the promoters/investors. Promotors have the right to decide the management, policies, practices, tactics on how they run their business.

2. Government and rule of law exists to ensure that the rights of the individuals are enforced if needed and the conducive environment exists for the indivual/enterprise to feel safe, earn his/her livelihood, learn, grow, prosper

3. Ofcourse the Rule of law decides the boundary conditions for both private enterprises as well as individuals to behave.

4. Often depending on the demand supply gap, private enterprises and individuals take undue benefits of each other. This is natural that whoever is being exploited blame other and petitions the rule of law to tame the other party

5. this is a continuous cycle, weak entities (among pvt enterprises as well as individuals) get thrown out of their business/work. Hence it is important for both companies as well as individuals to be at the cutting edge of the skills as well as performance.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 31st August 2009 at 21:57.
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Old 31st August 2009, 22:16   #90
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Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
I see that there is lot of blaming going on,
a few blaming the IT companies
a few blaming the HR & recruiters
a few blaming the managers
All the so called analysis are absolutely WRONG. The young man died because of lack of family support and lack of good advice from friends. When your life kicks mud in your face, you turn to your support system which looks like it was missing for this lad. 90 replies and nobody has hit on this simple fact. There are people with wife and kids that have lost everything and their shirt in business. This is nothing.

If I was in his place, I would have thrown the paper on the HR's face and moved on with my life.


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Originally Posted by spadival View Post
When people commit suicide as a direct result of the HR person holding a proverbial gun on the person's head and asking him/her to resign, who else can we blame?
I'm sorry but this is a truly ridiulous statement. It is the hire and fire system. HR sometimes gives 2-3 months free salary depending on the person's experience. If you slack off all year and not study, are you going to blame the person who gives you the final exam report-card that says that you failed.

Last edited by Mpower : 1st September 2009 at 01:55.
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