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View Poll Results: Which is your favourite jet fighter?
JAS 39 Gripen 9 36.00%
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet 4 16.00%
Eurofighter Typhoon 2 8.00%
Lockheed Martin F 16 IN 2 8.00%
Mikoyan MIG 35 5 20.00%
Dassault Rafale 3 12.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 18th May 2011, 21:55   #31
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

I think the Rafale will make the best choice as

1. We have experience with procurement from the French for the Mirage 2000s
2. The Mirages broke new ground in quick serviceability and MTTR with modular components, and the French would have retained the same features in the Rafale
3. We have enough A2A superiority aircraft, what we need is a great A2G aircraft to replace the aging Mirages and Jaguars.
4. The Rafale has already established itself as a multi-role aircraft that can be configured in both A2A and A2G mission modes, while the EFT is yet to have features added to make it omni-role, although it is expected in the coming few years (untested).
5. Number of pylons for carrying munitions is about 7 to 9 I think (not sure) as compared to 3 to 5 (again not sure) on the ET making the Rafale more useful platform for ground attack missions.
6. The Germans (part of EFT consortium) are already attempting to use Human Rights as a tool for foreign policy intervention in Indian internal matters by blocking the sale of pistols/guns for CRPF to be used in anti-naxal operations. Thus the IAF will be wary of U.S style behavior by any of the multiple EFT consortium members - in denying spares to maintain uptime of our aircraft during a war and influencing the outcome of our Military moves. Uncertainity of dealing with multiple nation countries in EFT consortium who may be influenced by Uncle SAM that WANTS Kashmir to Boil for its own vested interests. May block spares in case we attack PAK.
7. Better short take-off and landing performance at Leh Airfields compared to EFT- useful on bombed out airfields.
8. Rafale already has the AESA radar, EFT consortium is developing one that will only be ready by 2015.

Didn't know there was a thread on MMCRA here!! I would have loved to play a virtual matka/betting game and have some fun!!

--Ragul

Last edited by Ragul : 18th May 2011 at 22:05.
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Old 18th May 2011, 22:08   #32
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

I wish MIG-35 would have been shortlisted. Soviets always make the best machines. In fact the ageing MIG-21 refurbished and now known as Bison gave America's F-15s and F-16s of the USAF a run for their money during Indo-US joint air exercises.

MIG-21 was like a surgical knife. Cheap, Simple, rugged and deadly. Same carries over with MIG-35.

But now since its out of race best will be to take the French jet. EuroFighter is coming from a company having 4 nations as partners. Bad I will say.

Last edited by download2live : 18th May 2011 at 22:11.
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Old 26th May 2011, 10:13   #33
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

The Mig-35 has been labelled just as an upgraded Mig 29K by many.

The Russians have scr@w@d India badly by not providing spares and demanding exorbitant rates in an arm-twisting fashion as well as blocking the IAFs search for integrating other 3rd party non-russian vendor/suppliers for spares, until very recently. The rejection of Russia is a very strong message and reaction to what is an alarming situation affecting the uptime and operational readiness of our combat aircraft.

Here is a great article explaining why the Typhoon will be a loser.

Quote:
Dr Carlo Kopp, an internationally renowned combat aviation specialist, deems the Typhoon, a non-stealthy, short-range (300 nautical miles) air defence/air dominance fighter optimised for transonic manoeuvres, more a “lemon” than a “demon”. Italian Air Force Chief Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, moreover, declared in 2008 that this plane was incapable of an “attack role in an economically sustainable manner”, in part because EADS has no AESA radar. It hopes to develop one with the infusion of Indian monies if Typhoon is selected. Realistically, India will not get the strike variant until well into the 2020s as the Royal Air Force and the German Luftwaffe, for starters, will have the first lien on it. In short, for over a third of its lifetime, the IAF will have to make do with the more limited air defence version which, in effect, is an avionics-wise souped-up, ergonomically improved, MiG-21! Moreover, to expect timely, coordinated, supply of spares and service support from 20-odd countries (including Croatia!) roped into the Eurofighter programme will be a compounded logistics and maintenance nightmare.
A flying lemon | Deccan Chronicle

Forget stealth, the EFT is estimated to have less than half the endurance of the Rafale with just 3 mountpoints for underbody missiles/ammunition. And we already have plenty of Air dominance aircraft in the Sukhoi-30s.

Quote:
In fact the ageing MIG-21 refurbished and now known as Bison gave America's F-15s and F-16s of the USAF a run for their money during Indo-US joint air exercises.
This has been attributed to the fact that American combat pilot training is lacking due to their network centric Beyond Visual Range (BVR) emphasis. They are poor when it comes to close combat. In the above case, the Americans had switched off their advanced electronics to engage the Migs in close combat dog fights. However in the real world, the Migs would be blasted from the sky before they even sensed the presence of the American airplanes or came within the range of the Migs ammunition.

--Ragul

Last edited by Ragul : 26th May 2011 at 10:24.
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Old 26th May 2011, 10:57   #34
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

I feel it should be the Rafale which should be selected. The EF just feels too big and feels like overkill to do the job of the MiG-21/23. We already have the Flanker to do the Air dominance/deep penetration strike missions. Why add another heavy duty multi-role fighter?

Besides, IAF's deep reverence and mastery over the M2K should help the pilots to transition smoothly to the Rafale. Who knows, the Rafale M might even be selected for the Navy's second indigenous Aircraft carrier, thereby increasing commonality with the Air Force version.

The MiG-35 just seem too old now, it like the F-16 and F-18, is essentially 1980s design. Those smokey RD-33s doesn't make it too stealthy(visually) either. Wasn't there a report where the Navy was having trouble with the 29K/KUb?

The F-16/F-18 have been rightly kicked out, Amerikhan will never agree for full ToT and those fighters will come with all sorts of usage clauses, including not to fly it against Pakistan in case of war. Buying the F-16 /F-18 would have been like rewarding them for selling those new F-16C/Ds and P-3Cs( some of them for free).

Gripen never had a realistic chance. It was too close to our own Tejas specs wise, eventhough it was a highly suitable replacement for the MiG-21s.
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Old 29th May 2011, 23:54   #35
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
I feel it should be the Rafale which should be selected. The EF just feels too big and feels like overkill to do the job of the MiG-21/23. We already have the Flanker to do the Air dominance/deep penetration strike missions. Why add another heavy duty multi-role fighter?
Why another type ? The Su-30 is a heavier class, and from what I gather, size has its pros and cons. A smaller jet is usually cheaper to buy, fly and maintain.

More importantly, I think the point of this purchase was to buy western equipment , chiefly for avionics - the tender process being more of a formality. The IAF seems to have developed a desire for the western tech after Kargil where the Mirage did well. The Russian jets are more about brute force and aerodynamics , they have good frames and powerful engines, but suffer from low tech and low reliability when it comes to avionics, and require more frequent maintenance.

With China also operating an Su-27 variant, the IAF may have felt it necessary to have a another major type of jet that the Chinese couldn't get their hands on, to keep them from learning the jet and developing counter-acting defences or reverse-engineering the technology.
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Old 30th May 2011, 11:44   #36
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

I think the charade has gone on long enough. They must order as soon as possible - both are sound machines. Let them decide on the best price, best dakshina, or whatever but lose no more time!
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Old 30th May 2011, 17:44   #37
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Why another type ? The Su-30 is a heavier class, and from what I gather, size has its pros and cons. A smaller jet is usually cheaper to buy, fly and maintain.
By another type, I meant why add another heavy class fighter( Eurofighter) when we already have the Su-30MKI. Remember, these jets were supposed to replace the MiG-21s and 23s. Ideally the Gripen would have fitted the role perfectly, but having a heavy fighter like the Eurofighter do the roles of the MiG-21(BARCAP/HAVCAP/Light Strike) is just overkill.Rafael is much lighter, more developed and the French would be willing(more) for a full ToT than Italy/Germany/UK combined for the EF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
With China also operating an Su-27 variant, the IAF may have felt it necessary to have a another major type of jet that the Chinese couldn't get their hands on, to keep them from learning the jet and developing counter-acting defences or reverse-engineering the technology.
There's no guarantee that either the EF consortium or Dassault would not sell its fighters to PLAAF in the near future either. We just need to have a capable airframe tailor made to our needs. We have the Su-30MKI, the chinese have the Su-30MKK, both are essentially the same airframes. but with different avionics, engines and EW quipment.
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Old 31st January 2012, 23:43   #38
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

Finally, the dassault rafale wins.
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Old 1st February 2012, 10:12   #39
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Originally Posted by fireblade007 View Post
Finally, the dassault rafale wins.
Yeah, its a fantastic choice. Always felt the EF was too "heavy" to qualify as a "medium" fighter.

Apart from Dassault emerging being the lowest bidder, Rafale's true multirole ops in the Libyan campaign may have played a part too in making the decision, where the Eurofighter's A2G role was limited.

Can't wait to see the elegant looking Raffy in IAF colours and the sight of the Su-30MKI & Rafale flying together .
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Old 1st February 2012, 10:31   #40
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While I am happy that our AF boys will get something classy, I hope the entire process here on in completed swiftly and the production started. We have already wasted a lot of time.
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Old 1st February 2012, 12:36   #41
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

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Originally Posted by download2live View Post
I wish MIG-35 would have been shortlisted. Soviets always make the best machines. In fact the ageing MIG-21 refurbished and now known as Bison gave America's F-15s and F-16s of the USAF a run for their money during Indo-US joint air exercises.
Russian aircraft fail spectacularly when it comes to pilot comfort and ease of use, atleast this is what I have heard from people who fly them. The Mirage on the other hand (or western fighters in general) are much superior in this regard. The computer on board the Mirage even tells you when you're not breathing correctly or enough. And as the old IAF joke goes the Mig-21 on the other had has only three AC settings "hot, hotter and hottest".

So far as the Eurofighter and Rafale go, I think its interesting that we opted for the latter even though the Eurofighter had under bid the Rafale on the cost per aircraft. Perhaps it came down to overall lifecycle costs and the Eurofighter ending up as the Skoda of the sky.
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Old 1st February 2012, 12:48   #42
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Default Re: India's Multi Billion Dollar Medium Range Combat Aircraft Order

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Originally Posted by akshay380 View Post
While I am happy that our AF boys will get something classy, I hope the entire process here on in completed swiftly and the production started. We have already wasted a lot of time.
True, but the pace really picked up in the last 3 years. So i'm hopeful they'll wrap it up quickly now and induct the birds. Fingers crossed that Ministry of Finance won't throw a spanner in the works now.
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