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Old 10th July 2012, 12:10   #271
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Originally Posted by acurafan View Post
You made me feel like a movie star by misquoting me in your last post.
Oops! Sorry about that. It was late and I was almost sleepy when I misquoted the last of the text. Fixed it now.

And this is what our top IT companies do with the cream of the crop they hire every year. Infosys has 50,000 of their 1,50,000 employees sitting on bench. Wipro, TCS et all have similar numbers on bench.

IT companies struggle with growing benches - The Times of India
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Old 19th July 2012, 01:19   #272
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I think the idea of domain expertise idea may be a myth. I remember as a PhD student at Reading in 1974 one of my colleagues was hired by Rowntree McIntosh. The department was wondering what will they do hiring a PhD in Physics who had worked in Internal Friction in Gold. The recruiter stated that they are looking at the PhD as just a specialized training in research methodology and has nothing to with the subject!

A different point of view if ever there was one.
I have in my work place so many such examples. We have a Dr. in organic chemistry, writing Mission Planning program for spacecraft.


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But Ph.D level research teaches you how to find an answer when you don't know and people are expected to lead research. As I have said these are open ended problems and no body knows what is the right answer.
To answer your question whether we could have hired some of the rejected candidates and with guidance made them better, probably. I have referred couple of them to other research labs where they were a better match and I am sure they will do quite well. If our research group was bigger, I would have hired them as they might have done better with more guidance and "nurturing". It is hard to do when you get 1-2 reqs per year.
I can quote my Supervisor as an example for this. Although he himself has not done his Ph.D, but he is in my opinion the best guide I could have got. There have been many a days in my work during when, I will be just blank, doing nothing, other than playing games in my system. He will come around, look at what i am doing, and ask me if i need some help. I am usually very frank with him and tell him that I am getting no further and its just not coming. He will immediately take me for a coffee or a icecream, and will talk some nonsense or something about his family or tell me stories from his college days. Well, as you know, mood change, come back feel refreshed, only to find that i already have the answer under my nose. And those days, when i manage to do something new which is not existing so far, he will write that up in his huge board, so that when other managers come to him, they cud see what achievements i have done so far. He wont hesistate to share those during high-level meetings where there will flight directors and mission directors, who have tonnes of experience and numerous findings to their name.

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a experience in that European organization was different - it was tolerated that those Bachelor's, Masters' & PhD's didn't know much about the problems to start with, and they were nurtured till world-class technology came out of their research. They became experts in 3-5 years, but were not experts when they started!
Exactly my situation!
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Old 23rd July 2012, 11:36   #273
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Now the truth hits home in UP. Apparently there are over 80,000 vacancies with no takers this year. I expect some college owners are happy for the moment since they will be able to fill these for cash. But the writing is clear on the wall.

As I had mentioned to samurai as per the UR Rao committee report around 2003 the demand for graduate engineers was 49k per year and the availability was over 460k.

The worst of all is that 90% of then are unemployable.
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Old 23rd July 2012, 12:08   #274
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With guys graduating, there are some colleges which are not considered for any campus hiring. Feel kind of bad for them.
Most companies depend on campus hiring for freshers.

On another note, what do we really want? Good Engineers or good problem solvers. I work in most famous of telecom labs and not all of my colleagues are engineers. Some of them are from liberal arts etc. Of course there are a lot of PhDs from India !
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Old 31st August 2012, 11:48   #275
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Not sure how many have read this
http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...ating-classes/

Hope more people change and bring changes before the gravy train slows.
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Old 31st August 2012, 11:57   #276
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
On another note, what do we really want? Good Engineers or good problem solvers. I work in most famous of telecom labs and not all of my colleagues are engineers. Some of them are from liberal arts etc. Of course there are a lot of PhDs from India !
Good question. Our system makes sure that any imagination or curiosity are killed as soon as possible. we just produce Robots or babus.

I once had a chance to interact with the senior people from Media Labs, MIT. There was an artist amongst them. What I figured out is that MIT essentially caught hold of a small bunch of creative chaps with a proved track record, put in some seed money, a Gigabit LAN (those days it was rare), some capital and cut them loose. Will our system support this lassiez faire? Answer is No. We want deliverables even before we start. Then some committee will sit down with the list, and start ticking things off from the list. So they will get zilch or at best some reinventions.
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Old 31st August 2012, 12:23   #277
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Good question. Our system makes sure that any imagination or curiosity are killed as soon as possible. we just produce Robots or babus.
Sir, You are the right person to answer this question!

1. Do your sincerely think that only the system is at fault?
2. What about the self-intiative of the student himself/herself?
3. We do still have innovators among us, don't we? Inspite of the system being bad or outdated! Then, where is the problem? I feel it lies with both, the system makers and the system users. I would be happy to learn from you sir.

Once, I was asked this question by my professor, "You Indians are working on almost all of the latest software stuff, and you guys give statistics that x % of microsoft, y % of Intel and z % of NASA employees are Indians, then why do I not see an operating system from India? Why don't I see an Indian Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Werner von Braun?" (well I had posted this earlier too, before someone condors me!! I want to bring to the front to imply the importance!)
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Old 31st August 2012, 14:02   #278
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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
Sir, You are the right person to answer this question!

1. Do your sincerely think that only the system is at fault?
2. What about the self-intiative of the student himself/herself?
3. We do still have innovators among us, don't we? Inspite of the system being bad or outdated! Then, where is the problem? I feel it lies with both, the system makers and the system users.

....then why do I not see an operating system from India? Why don't I see an Indian Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Werner von Braun?"
The simple answer is that we love to conform, and are totally risk averse. The colonial powers wanted good clerks, and that is what our education system was set up to produce, and that is what we are. Do you think any parents will allow their wards to drop out of college and pursue their dreams?

I remember many years ago the daughter of a close friend was taking coaching for JEE (most responsible for the sad state of our education today). She asked a question about some concept. The reply was 'You can ask this question once you are in an IIT, right now just take what I have said as the truth'.
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Old 31st August 2012, 15:07   #279
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@AlphaKilo, I might have mentioned previously in this post. I see my Son going through the system and its not easy to divert him towards the off beat path. For a Kid, you dont want to overwhelm them with something extra by trying to kindle something extra.
They have more school work than what we used to have plus ofcourse we dont seem to have much time also. We are failing them and we dont know how to come out of this. (its not a coincidence that everything else in this country is also in similar straits)

Last edited by srishiva : 31st August 2012 at 15:10.
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Old 31st August 2012, 16:27   #280
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
The simple answer is that we love to conform, and are totally risk averse. The colonial powers wanted good clerks, and that is what our education system was set up to produce, and that is what we are. Do you think any parents will allow their wards to drop out of college and pursue their dreams?
Why haven't we tried to change ourselves sir? I understand the restrictions imposed on educators like you in prestigious institutions, but most the cream end up abroad, leavning only a handful behind who are born leaders.

Quote:
The reply was 'You can ask this question once you are in an IIT, right now just take what I have said as the truth'.
I have experienced this stuff so many a times, that I am almost fed up of hearing this answer. Spoiling the young minds.
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Old 31st August 2012, 21:09   #281
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It was a subtle way to say that parents in general encourage their wards to join the system. I.e. do whatever is necessary to have that safe and secure job.climb the corporate ladder or govt. Job. Encourages people to avoid risk taking.

The reference to tigers and cubs was about innovators and risk takers coming out of environment that encourages such behavior

I.e. peer groups or family that has entrepreneurial DNA.

You'll find a lot of people in agricultural punjab who have built businesses of agricultural equipment and other industrial equipment and even export their products.

Same with agricultural farm techniques.

All without any formal degrees
.

"This getting settled mindset " is ingrained into the mindset of parents and teachers alike.

Those who break out of this mindset due to exceptional influence of an enlightened professor or family member "can learn to follow a passion or take an untravelled road."

The technical biggies in India are service companies.they need clerks to do back end services. They train recruits accordingly.

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Last edited by Eddy : 31st August 2012 at 22:01. Reason: Note Inline
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Old 1st September 2012, 00:17   #282
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Good Engineers or good problem solvers.
To start with, we need good citizens. One who can understand the importance of greater good and with some sense of common sense.
Then they can be moulded into anyone.

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
We want deliverables even before we start. Then some committee will sit down with the list, and start ticking things off from the list. So they will get zilch or at best some reinventions.
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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
I feel it lies with both, the system makers and the system users.
+1 to both. We have this M.Tech Biotechnology fresher hired from a reputed IIIT to work as a tester. As if the irony is not sufficient, she is assigned a task to learn about databases. The candidate is enthusiastic but the manager and every one around are slowing her saying that she should 'take things slowly' since her background is different. To my suggestions that she should start learning about the underlying bits of implementing a relational database first, everyone opposed and suggested practicing SQL . See, when the system and users themselves are happy with mediocre results they get,who is going to push the envelope? Majority here don't want to risk their time to create things, yet they want to be creative.

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I have experienced this stuff so many a times, that I am almost fed up of hearing this answer. Spoiling the young minds.
Had similar experiences, gave up on coaching and taught my self. Proud to say that whatever rank I got is of my own efforts, though I didn't take up the admission for a different reason.
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Old 1st September 2012, 22:42   #283
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but most the cream end up abroad, leavning only a handful behind who are born leaders.
Sorry to disillusion you, this is no longer true. Emigration is pretty low now.

You are also implying all those who stayed are grade II or worse, Well then if Narayanamurthy, Nilekani, Som Mittal, D Subba Rao and co are Grade II so be it.

I strongly object to this mindset.
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Old 1st September 2012, 23:24   #284
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Why haven't we tried to change ourselves sir?
Who says it is not happening? It is not happening in the scale we want. The mindset of people when I graduated was lot worse. Then people thought that government job is the best and looked down on private sector jobs. At least that is not the case anymore. There are many times more entrepreneurs now compared to 80s. Very few in my father's generation even thought about starting something on their own.

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but most the cream end up abroad, leavning only a handful behind who are born leaders.
Sorry, I totally disagree. I am with sgiitk in this. It takes lot more talent and tenacity to succeed in India. This whole cream theory was invented by those who emigrated, been hearing this since early 90s, mainly from NRIs.
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Old 2nd September 2012, 00:04   #285
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Why haven't we tried to change ourselves sir? I understand the restrictions imposed on educators like you in prestigious institutions, but most the cream end up abroad, leavning only a handful behind who are born leaders.
Please see the bolded portion. So the names mentioned by sgiitk sir comes under this handful category. I have deepest respect for every Indian and I clearly understand the hurdles one has to go through before he/she can establish himself. I have personally been through the same path to be where I am now, so I know the hardships or hurdles one faces during upcoming.

-If at all we have so many leaders, why don't we see a proactive nation instead of the reactive nation that we are now? Where are those leaders? When will see them?

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Emigration is pretty low now.
Really sir? Is this really because of the jobs or the development that has happened or due to the worldwide economic slow down?

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You are also implying all those who stayed are grade II or worse, Well then if Narayanamurthy, Nilekani, Som Mittal, D Subba Rao and co are Grade II so be it.
I strongly object to this mindset.
You are reading between the lines sir. That idea you mentioned, was/is/will never (be) my intention.

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Who says it is not happening? It is not happening in the scale we want.
Very true. I have no where said that we are not at all developing. All I am saying is we are slow, too slow to our own potentials. If only we wanted, we could be much more better than what we are now. Anyways, better late than never.

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It takes lot more talent and tenacity to succeed in India.
Why so? How are we different as a nation when compared to any other country? Why is it so hard to establish oneself here than elsewhere? When one has the right talent/skill required for a job, should he not be able to establish himself in what he is doing, if not easily, but with good efforts? But why is there a struggle in our country? Logically makes sense to me, correct me if I am wrong.

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This whole cream theory was invented by those who emigrated, been hearing this since early 90s, mainly from NRIs.
Cream - I didnt mean to say those who went out were Sir C.V.Ramans and who are staying back are a bunch of pillocks rather, I meant to say that most of us if not all, wish/ or do go out and the many of the ones here lack even basic common sense. Sorry, this is the truth and I can quote examples from your own interview sessions sir. How many of the engineering graduates of today can speak proper English. leave English, ask them basic mechanics from 1st semester, lets see how many can even answer first, then recollect the CONCEPT and not give a book definition.

(before anyone jumps on me, saying I am contradicting my statement, please see my answer to sgiitk sir. That should clear the issue, if not PM me please. I dont want to divert the whole topic of discussion.Thanks)

I am not talking about any of the people of the 90's, the whole point of my discussion is about "Employability of today's Indian graduates".

P.S:@sgiitk sir and samurai sir: As an youngster I am more than eager to learn and correct myself where ever I am wrong, so please continue to correct me. I am ready to learn.
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