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Old 4th November 2012, 01:44   #316
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... students are trained to think that throwing in some sort of graphs and jargon is mandatory .

It takes some years of work experience to unlearn it.
WADR, that is naivette at it's worst. One can lay *some* blame on bad teachers, but most of the malaise is already in the minds of the students well before they sat in those classes.

The objective of the graphs was graphical presentation of data - detailed or summarized, which is always part of the lecture when they are presented. Jargon is a professional language shortcut - created more for a sense of 'belongingness' in the profession rather than anything else.

Neither is mandatory, and neither is of any use without background knowledge. If students do not understand that, the usage of either has to be due to illusions created by the students for themselves. Their independent analytical abilities are so atrophied by these illusions that despite failing in interviews on multiple occasions, they are not able to systematically weed out whatever made them fail.

A few of them realize this vicious circle if pointed out, but a majority keep blundering / bumbling on. Add to this the primary expectation that it is always someone else (father, mother, teacher, employer, wife ...) whose duty it is to provide them what is necessary in life, one can easily figure out the reason for their unemployability.
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Old 4th November 2012, 15:03   #317
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Why not? At least 1 in 10 candidates do manage to give proper answer and often with flying colors. I have hired 8 people in the last 5 months, and they all did well to clear this round.
How many interviews did you have to conduct for selecting these 8?
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Old 6th November 2012, 01:07   #318
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When I was 13-14(2004-05) being brainwashed by my father(rightly so) not to just rote learn(which my teachers almost insisted) the answer but to absorb it, I was called a freak and an idiot by my classmates to whom I tried to transfer the philosophy. Being from a government school background I very well understand the herd mentality of remembering and not understanding. When I was vindicated by 3 idiots and my relative success(getting a regular it job) I got a lot of calls and texts telling me that I was right(felt proud). I would have been the same rote learner had my father not been the smart man he is learning from the mistakes he made, I worry what the current generation is doing in government schools, more of the same that my classmates did I think.
I ask this to samurai sir and sgiitk sir, you are the ones that I see that overcame the system. How do I help people who are following this herd mentality any Ideas?
I have a few young people that I can influence.
Most of our young countrymen study in these government schools help me help them.
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Old 7th November 2012, 21:07   #319
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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How many interviews did you have to conduct for selecting these 8?
Actually, all the examples I am quoting here are not from the interview, but from the communication test or seminar. This year we had 103 candidates taking the comm test, 18 made it to the interview. And only 8 made it in.

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I have a few young people that I can influence.
Most of our young countrymen study in these government schools help me help them.
Actually, your job has been made easy by the movie 3 idiots. Just show them the movie and then discuss it further.

This should help -> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...-3-idiots.html (Things to learn from 3 idiots)
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Old 14th November 2012, 22:10   #320
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Where following the rules, sticking with the tradition and keeping with the times is imperative, people instead manifest wild creativity, take bold steps (or turns) and break every rule possible. Example: Most Indian drivers on our so-called roads.

The Indian graduates are an exact opposite. How well we fight the ideals and even win!

But the problem, I believe lies not with the education system alone. One obvious attribute necessary to succeed in any job is Thinking; leave alone Creative Thinking and thinking develops in the tender age, probably even before one enters the school. That is when parenting plays an important role.

Note: The "Kid" I refer to here could mean < 10 years
1. If the kid in his early years is not channelized to think & understand there are very poor chances in developing his individuality and the result is low confidence and self esteem. Outcome: "Follow the crowd"
2. The kid is not allowed to explore and discover things then he might never develop any passions. I know many who copy the "Hobbies" section in the Resume from other classmates' Resumes (I don't even know why some are so keen on including the hobbies in the first place, a note on Extra Curricular Activities is better. Why will the employer be interested in what books you love unless you are applying for a writer profile. Adapt! The world doesn't run on a one-size-fits-all philosophy, that only works in the education)
3. The top reasons kids are out of the house these days is for the "regular doctor checkup" or "no-one at home". When I was a kid, we were forced to spend our summer vacations at relatives place (even if that "relative" is, well, not quiet "related").
Whenever I greet (chee-chee, choo-choos) little kids whom I see at odd public places, the parents are least bothered in directing the kids attention towards me (and I in no way look scary, really), they instead take a back foot (thanks to the western insecurity we have borrowed). How will the communication develop if you never get a chance to meet different people, understand what they want to say and make yourself understood.

So our graduates could very well be compared to Engines which are not run-in properly which cannot be fixed however frequently you service (educate) them later. Excuse me for the wild comparison
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Old 15th November 2012, 11:17   #321
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Where following the rules, sticking with the tradition and keeping with the times is imperative, people instead manifest wild creativity, take bold steps (or turns) and break every rule possible. Example: Most Indian drivers on our so-called roads. ...
It is not 'wild creativity', it is 'collective stupidity'. Send those very same Indian drivers to a developed country, and they will timidly follow rules to the t. I have seen people, who normally take a right turn going to the right extreme side of a road in Bangalore, turn evangelists of lane driving outside India!

It is a paradox, yes. It is the environment that makes the difference. In developed countries people follow rules since they know their lives will be disabled (like driving license being cancelled in US) if they don't. Here lives are anyhow disabled due to dysfunctional / non-functional environment - and that is because we think only of others when we are at home, and only ourselves when we are outside. It is as if we have been brought up being told not to think when we are outside of our homes.

We make the environment - good by following laws or bad by breaking it. If some dunderhead ignoramus breaks a rule, it doesn't give me leave or license to do the same citing their example.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:03   #322
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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It is not 'wild creativity', it is 'collective stupidity'.
I sugar coated it, agree.

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It is a paradox, yes. It is the environment that makes the difference. In developed countries people follow rules since they know their lives will be disabled (like driving license being cancelled in US) if they don't.
Yes, the enforcement needs to be stringent. Of late, the traffic situation in Hyd (in terms of following the rules and not the volumes) has improved, thanks to the police who are stringent these days. It's a pleasure to watch people hurriedly using their legs to get their bikes back within the "zebra line" when the signal turns red but all the pleasure vanishes when the pedestrians pass right though the center of the road while one hand is busy holding the phone to the ear, happily laughing away as if it were a ritual. Enforcing motorcycles to stop prior to the Zebra Crossing is only half the job done, I wonder what laws apply to the pedestrians here. We still have miles to go anyway.

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It is a paradox, yes. It is the environment that makes the difference. In developed countries people follow rules since they know their lives will be disabled (like driving license being cancelled in US) if they don't.
The other day my brother and I were discussing about the "Helmet" rule that was (not sure if it still is) in place. I argued that more than the rules, attitude matters but he disagreed (how rare that brothers disagree, kodak moment) and insisted rules make a lot of difference. So the next time we were on the road together, we decided to count the number of people wearing helmets now that the rule is not being strictly enforced. We counted about 50 heads and had a clear result, hardly 5 of them were wearing the helmet. Even if you discount errors, it is still way low.

Something more important that just rules and it's enforcement is probably plain common-sense.

I don't know if it is an attitudinal, cultural or a parenting problem. But it sure is a big problem. Fortunately or unfortunately our colleges don't have "common-sense" in the curriculum yet. Let's make it "fortunately".
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:32   #323
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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I have seen people, who normally take a right turn going to the right extreme side of a road in Bangalore, turn evangelists of lane driving outside India!
Der Alte sir, Sorry to nit pick, but isn't the driver not doing the right thing by going to the right (most) lane in order to take a right turn or did you mean on a single lane road the drivers barge onto the opposite lane to take the turn?

Rest, I believe I have to agree with you without a doubt.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:41   #324
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... isn't the driver not doing the right thing by going to the right (most) lane in order to take a right turn or did you mean on a single lane road the drivers barge onto the opposite lane to take the turn? ...
That (both of your expressions) is exactly what I meant. People tend to go as much to the right of the road as practically possible (dividers are spoil-sports, na) while taking a right turn. One has to be in Bangalore to notice that - it is endemic here.
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Old 15th November 2012, 14:45   #325
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I think our fuzz is also to blame.

They started the practice of getting vehicles doing a right turn go to the right of the police box (or whatever), and also at the lights. This is strictly a no-no in the UK and considered dangerous, since you are unable to see approaching traffic. Now the chicken are coming home to roost!
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Old 15th November 2012, 17:13   #326
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Stumbled upon this thread and I have a smile on my face, there is nothing you cannot discuss on T-BHP!!

Reading some thoughts by our distinguished members like Sgiitk, Samurai and Deralte sir, I am happy to see that my understanding of what the industry expects from graduates is correct. I am not very old in the industry, just in my 5th year of experience now but I have been fortunate to interact with a lot of experts in their own fields. When I say experts, I am not referring to only general managers or chief design engineers. I have come across printing press operators who had more knowledge of the machine and the process compared to the design engineer of that machine.

Here's my small story and my take on general education situation in our country. I was always a curious child, sometimes even bordering on attention deficiency syndrome I guess. I could not accept anything if it was just told to me, I need proof. My teachers had a hard time making me accept, mostly threatening me to get out of the class if I don't agree

I never gave up though, thanks to my mother and some other elders in my house. They fuelled and quenched my thirst for knowledge and I am fortunate to have an activity filled childhood. In 10th grade I knew I wanted to do something related to electronics, I opted for electronics engineering not because it was the "in thing" at that time, but because I was truly amazed by tiny circuits making big machines work. I was naive then, but I became more informed through my engineering years. I was not very interested in the rote learning and puking in the exam routines, I joined a few "coaching" classes in the first 2 years because XYZ was a tough subject and you cannot pass it unless you attend this "God prof" ka class. I nearly flunked in all those subjects. I regret those decisions even today. Come third year and I was determined not to join any classes, study from reference books and focus on understanding and testing my knowledge rather than working to pass the exam. I was mocked at in college. "kya paagal hai" was the common term for me, I applied all that I learned in 4 years by participating in IEEE related events and made several remote controlled model cars and projects to test all that I learn. What's the point of learning how to program a micro processor if you never use it to program and build a machine ?

When I appeared for a regular IT company interview through campus placements, I got the job and I was devastated. I just could not see myself working in a herd, I was not programming oriented. I wanted to work with hardware and associated programming. I wanted to solder circuits on boards and plug and unplug wires and see things work in the physical world. Some months later I landed up with a job at Siemens in their automation division. I had no idea what I was getting into, but it was something to do with PLC and drives programming. I found it extremely easy to pass the interview, it all fell into place in those 30 minutes. I remember I could not answer some questions outright, but I talked the panel through my process of trying to arrive at an answer. These were the best 3 years of my life.

Having said that, I see my nephew growing up and everyone he looks up to for clearing his doubts is busy sending him to classes. He is sent to classes for drawing, tennis, dance, math and then for his regular school tuition. But his questions are not answered there, he is left with more unanswered questions since his parents are either busy earning money or watching TV. Even in grade 8, he can sketch a Ferrari with all its curves and details, he is very good in drawing and is crazy about cars, but his parents are not interested.

The change has to come from all sides, the future students, the people responsible for designing the education system and the parents. Right now, all we are doing is killing creativity, preaching that tried and tested routes are the best. How often do you hear "Beta MBA kar lo, baaki kuch karoge to paisa kaise kamaoge" (Do an MBA, how else will you earn money). Some curious and hungry souls escape this trap, most of them don't. We have to reduce this gap between what the education system is nurturing and what the real world industries need. In my opinion that can be done only when we are brave enough to accept that there is a gap, only then can we identify what needs to be done.

Apologies if I got drifted away in sharing my thoughts using my story, probably not the right place. But I thought its worth sharing, I am not trying to stand out of the crowd or prove I am superior, just wanted to bring my perspective to this thread. While we are talking about it, here's a video by Ken Robinson on education and its short falls in today's society.

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Old 16th November 2012, 14:17   #327
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Well not everything is a lost cause. Recently I had the privilege to interview an engineering student from one of the IIT for summer internship. The depth of his knowledge was seriously mind boggling. Here was a guy who was in his third year and was answering questions that can make graduate students sweat. It was probably the most entertaining one hour I had ever spent interviewing. The person was able to answer questions ranging from digital design, signal processing, mathematics and economics. Despite this, he had an average GPA. This kind of vindicates the theory that some time rote learning is what one needs to get good scores in exams.
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Old 16th November 2012, 14:56   #328
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@acurafan; In the 70's many Tata firms preferred chaps with their CPI's in the 8.0 to 8.5 range in preference to the 9's. Obviously the former were better rounded, had some horse sense, and did not have very big egos. I am not sure what is the status nowadays.
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Old 16th November 2012, 21:49   #329
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Rote learning is required to stay ahead of the competition, which is a direct result of overpopulation in India. With thousands of fresh graduates coming in for each interview, the only way companies can establish any order is to make a cutoff percentage, this itself promotes students to rote and get higher and higher marks, a viscious circle.

Regarding practical knowledge, common sense, sense of curiosity, purpose of life etc, these higher states come in, once the graduate has atleast a job offer in hand. Its very difficult to find out purpose of life on an empty stomach.

The problem of employability is not the student's or the company's fault, its the fault of the juggadu education system, tottering on its weakend legs, not responsive to change, not willing to change, wanting to continue in the age old british era clerical education.


Its upto the education babus to make the education system, interesting, practical and responsive to current and future needs of our industry, for that to happen there should be a healthy two way flow of information and ideas between universities and industry. If courses are structured to be responsive to future industry requirements, we would definitely see far more employable graduates. the original ITI institutes were set up with this very idea in mind, to ensure minimum technical expertise for industry, however ITI seems to have lost track of their purpose over years. There should be a revival if ITI and further such courses for graduates, post graduates and MBAs, the future of our nation depends on this!
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Old 16th November 2012, 22:00   #330
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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I think our fuzz is also to blame.

They started the practice of getting vehicles doing a right turn go to the right of the police box (or whatever), and also at the lights. This is strictly a no-no in the UK and considered dangerous, since you are unable to see approaching traffic. Now the chicken are coming home to roost!
I was in 1st grade when my father explained to me why we had to go left of the box. I still remember it vividly.

He also told me playing cards was gambling, illegal and subject to arrest. Which is why even today I can not play cards except a game of solitaire on my mobile

BTW, are you saying they are changing rules to go to the right? or just a bad convention like everything else on our streets.
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