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Old 22nd July 2013, 13:55   #451
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I think people are missing the major point I am trying to make here. I am speaking very specific to comp.sci M.Tech program as it is offered today. Rest of you are talking about M.Tech in general.

Comp.Sci M.Tech is the only program which allows people from other branches to join. Is it even possible for somebody from unrelated branch to join Civil, Electrical, Electronics, or Mechanical engineering M.Tech?

Can a Civil BE grad join Electronics M.Tech? NO
Can a Electrical BE grad join Mech M.Tech? NO
Can any BE grad join comp.sci M.Tech? YES

You see the difference? Doesn't that mean comp.sci M.Tech is really watered down compared to other branches of engineering?
While I don't agree with many of the arguments that have been made in this discussion previously but this is something I too am troubled with. Even the industry is willing to recruit non comp sci graduates and I don't under stand why. Colleges are merely following the precedent by trying to churn out as many software degrees as possible.

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But another major problem is how people choose their career.Else where in the world people choose their career based on what interests them, what they excel in. But in India, it is about how much salary, social ego, desirability in marriage market or any combination of these. A majority has no interest in what they study. So how can we expect any sort of innovation or value to come out of them?
If salary were not the criteria, majority of Engineers wouldn't be writing CAT and other MBA entrances that too fresh out of college. Many a times I don't understand if combination of Engineering + MBA does make sense except for the placements(where engineering back ground hardly matters). I don't think that an MBA degree adds any substantial value to a freshly passed out engineer.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 14:16   #452
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... But in India, it is about how much salary ...
In India one doesn't *bother* about a career till it hits them at the wrong place (there are exceptions, usually the top 5 in every class). You can't grudge them - try to ask pointed questions in a fresher interview and you will realize how 'fresh' they are up there - grey matter never exercized! What can you do? Blame the parents who have molly-coddled them all the time and taken decisions on their behalf?

How else can one explain complete dependence on *someone else* taking a decision on what they should do and what their careers should be? Most of them are ignorant of the fact that it is the ability to produce something tangible that gets them a salary even as a fresher. Most assume it is their birthright to expect to be told what to do (like their mothers held up a milk bottle or glass to their lips and said "drink"), and it is the industry's responsibility to provide a job!

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... Even the industry is willing to recruit non comp sci graduates and I don't under stand why. ...
That is because there are many roles in the IT industry that doesn't need a Comp Sc. degree, not even how a computer works. One doesn't always use a cannon to kill mosquitoes.

The problem later on is that due to migration within a level or between levels, there are many such people who land up in places where the knowledge is really required - and then you know what happens if one such person becomes your boss!

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... churn out as many software degrees as possible. ...
Err ... what is a 'software degree'???
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Old 22nd July 2013, 14:57   #453
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Err ... what is a 'software degree'???
I should have used a better term.
Kindly read it as-a course that claims to associate one to a technical aspect of software engineering and/or Information Technology industry.
I am referring to the new courses invented after the boom in Indian IT industry. Liberalizing the admission criteria to allow non CS graduates into MTech CS might be to fill this supply-demand gap in the market. Obviously it leads to the dilution of the credibility of the degree itself as an MTech hardly has an edge in regular IT jobs as they start at the same job level as BTech.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 15:26   #454
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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I have seen the syllabus book for M.Tech [comp.sci] for this university, so I knew exactly what I am talking about. It is geared towards providing comp.sci basics to people jumping from other branches. If you have done BE in civil, but want to switch to comp.sci, this M.Tech fits the bill. I have interviewed a few M.Tech graduates from this university and know what they are taught, and how they are taught. However, I am quite surprised about your low opinion towards industry experience. Ok, may be not so surprised, considering how most engineers end up becoming pure managers. I am still a hardcore techie, so it was stunning to me.
As I mentioned, I have no idea about this university or what it teaches. If the university is so pathetic, I can imagine you hold your grudges against it. However in a real masters program, spoon feeding is never done nor are any level or basic computer science courses repeated.

If you read my post carefully, I never said experience does not matter. It most definitely does as long as you work in the right place doing the right kind of work. However in 8/10 software companies these days - especially the service oriented body shops that employ most of the tier 2/3 college students, there's very little to nothing that one learns from experience. One may end up in a rut even without realizing the same.

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It is supposed to do that. But the syllabus and the quality of instruction ensures it doesn't happen. I learned all my comp.sci by self learning, still doing it, still learning new stuff every year.

Depends on where you are doing it. No such hope in service companies though.
There's the fallacy in your thinking - a good research based masters course has nothing like a syllabus and one has to do very few courses if any. The material one studies is the contemporary research published in peer reviewed conferences/journals and then one's output is furthering their own quest of knowledge by research. The academics at such institutions only help you in guiding you onto your path.

This is something that is super rare to find in the industry where very few top class folks get the opportunity to do open ended research where one himself/herself decides what they wish to do without any external pressure. The inconvenient truth is that only if you have been through something like that, you'd know the value of the same.

Anyway this post is long enough - to summarize, do not discount the value add of a good master's degree.

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Old 22nd July 2013, 15:26   #455
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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But another major problem is how people choose their career.Else where in the world people choose their career based on what interests them, what they excel in. But in India, it is about how much salary, social ego, desirability in marriage market or any combination of these. A majority has no interest in what they study. So how can we expect any sort of innovation or value to come out of them?
Sometimes I think the syllabus in our universities is made for exactly these people, all they have to do is to memorize everything a month before exam and spit it out. No need to have any interest in acquiring knowledge on the subject

Interesting point....

Education counselling, when I did my graduation was non existent. If some one told me what exactly the BTech course I ended up doing three decades back , actually was all about, I would have run a mile and left that seat to the next guy in line (yes I came through a very competitive entrance exam). The absence of counselling and being taught by faculty , majority of whom were incompetent, led me to hating the stuff in which I graduated, ever afterwards. Luckily I had developed strong interests by then in what I wanted to do (on a totally unrelated field) and took some supplemental qualfications, and later, a formal post graduate qualfication from one the top institutes offering courses in my subject area of interest and this has helped in my current career. I have no regrets at the switch and happy at what I am doing now And thankfully since I went through a competitive entrance exam at a time the technical education was heavily state subsidised, I didnt blow a hole in my parents finances as well.

That said, I regret to this day that there was no proper counselling or guidance available about the various courses and if there was one, I could have left that precious engineering seat to some one more deserving and who would have got more out of it . Ofcourse in those days , competition was fierce and in my home state atleast, there was no engineering college at literally every street corner (which is the case now) and hence these seats were in very short supply.

But for reasons mentioned above I will not be too harsh in judging fresh graduates. I am not going to be hyper criticial on what the fresh graduate does or does not know, but as long as they demonstrate they have the core concepts in place and shows an ability to grasp things quickly, that will be enough for me than the fact that some one missed getting the 75% minimum in 1 out of 60 papers by 1 mark or doesnt know what is the significance of Ramanujan number.My niece was rejected in the very final round for a voice process customer support job (where minimum qualification was a BSc in any science subject) by one of India's cream of cream IT company's BPO outift for not knowing what was the significance of Ramanujan number . Thankfully she was able to get another job with an even more prestigious competitor in their mainline (non BPO) stream itself who had a more balanced recruiting process, but I still havent forgotten the emotional wreck my niece breifly became thanks to the briilliant selection policies of the earlier company. I had no answers to her questions on WHY she was rejected because she didnt know the signifcance of Ramanjuan number while some of her friends who drew other interviewers for their final "Subject" round were asked such demanding questions like what is the capital of their home state and got offer letters on the spot.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 16:40   #456
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Originally Posted by huntrz View Post
... Liberalizing the admission criteria to allow non CS graduates into MTech CS might be to fill this supply-demand gap in the market. Obviously it leads to the dilution of the credibility of the degree itself as an MTech hardly has an edge in regular IT jobs as they start at the same job level as BTech.
You are right, though the dilution of credibility starts at the conception of the Masters course, not due to liberalization of the admission criteria. BTech in India teaches enough Maths for anyone to be able to do MTech in CS. Those who conceive of the Masters courses have only a peripheral link with industry realities, if at all.

As far as the credibility is concerned, with due respect to all who have done MTech from India, it is assumed anyone who wants to do MTech in India does it because a. they didn't get / want a job immediately and b. they want to be associated with academics. With those who leave our shores to do MTech anywhere else in the world, the motivation is different - fast-track to a job abroad, even if it is in academics; they don't want to come back to India.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
... However in a real masters program, spoon feeding is never done ...
And which (real instances) might these Masters programs be? (Sorry, I am not laughing at the idea, but the 'absence of spoon feeding' is a bit too much to digest in Indian institutions, knowing how things are done).

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... I have no regrets at the switch and happy at what I am doing now ...
You are one of the rare ones who KNEW what they want. The basic problem is the newer generations are seldom, if at all, aware that they are expected to know what THEY want - yet they are blissfully ignorant.

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... not knowing what was the significance of Ramanujan number ...
Good Lord - even I would have failed!!! What is it, and what is the significance?
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Old 22nd July 2013, 16:55   #457
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Originally Posted by huntrz View Post
While I don't agree with many of the arguments that have been made in this discussion previously but this is something I too am troubled with. Even the industry is willing to recruit non comp sci graduates and I don't under stand why. Colleges are merely following the precedent by trying to churn out as many software degrees as possible.
There is a reason for that, I have answered this before.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
About 80% of the work done in IT field anyway doesn't need technical background or aptitude. Any degree (B.A/B.Com/B.Sc) graduate can do these jobs. [In fact, even 10th or 12th grade pass-outs can do many of these jobs. But we are a degree obsessed country, white collar employees are expected to have a college degree. So let's not go there.]

But the large IT companies, who mainly operate in service industry want bodies in huge numbers. So they set objective filters, set similar parameters for recruiting. One of those parameter is 4-year degree, forced by H1 visa requirement. Because of that, 3-year degree holders get eliminated from the race. So companies hire 100% of their requirement from engineering pool, even the 80% that doesn't need technical background.
So colleges are creating engineers with no real technical knowledge.

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Originally Posted by huntrz View Post
If salary were not the criteria, majority of Engineers wouldn't be writing CAT and other MBA entrances that too fresh out of college. Many a times I don't understand if combination of Engineering + MBA does make sense except for the placements(where engineering back ground hardly matters). I don't think that an MBA degree adds any substantial value to a freshly passed out engineer.
You are right. One should take up MBA only after few years of experience, to extract the real value.

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What can you do? Blame the parents who have molly-coddled them all the time and taken decisions on their behalf?
Many parents continue to provide ignorant career advice even after the kid starts working.

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Originally Posted by huntrz View Post
Obviously it leads to the dilution of the credibility of the degree itself as an MTech hardly has an edge in regular IT jobs as they start at the same job level as BTech.
This is exactly what I am talking about.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
As I mentioned, I have no idea about this university or what it teaches. If the university is so pathetic, I can imagine you hold your grudges against it.
No, I am only commenting on the pedagogy of their CS M.Tech program.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
However in a real masters program, spoon feeding is never done nor are any level or basic computer science courses repeated.
That is true. My comment was only against CS M.Tech as it is mostly offered in India.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
It most definitely does as long as you work in the right place doing the right kind of work.
I am.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
However in 8/10 software companies these days - especially the service oriented body shops that employ most of the tier 2/3 college students, there's very little to nothing that one learns from experience.
I said the same thing.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
There's the fallacy in your thinking - a good research based masters course has nothing like a syllabus and one has to do very few courses if any.
I was not talking about a good research based masters course, but one based on syllabus.

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
This is something that is super rare to find in the industry where very few top class folks get the opportunity to do open ended research where one himself/herself decides what they wish to do without any external pressure. The inconvenient truth is that only if you have been through something like that, you'd know the value of the same.
Well, since 15 years I have always decided what I want to work on, and then worked on it. I set the goal, and then reach it, using the best means available to me. So you can say I know the value of it.

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Anyway this post is long enough - to summarize, do not discount the value add of a good master's degree.
Why do you keep preaching to the choir? I am in fact a recipient of a very good master's degree from a very good university. I had to really work hard for this one.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
About 11 years after my graduation, I took up MBA at an UK university. That was the first time I was exposed to real academic learning. The exams were tough as hell and mostly in essay and case study format. They gave marks only if you demonstrate clear understanding of the topic. Reproducing the material by memory would get you a big zero. And there was no choice, you had to answer every question. It was so refreshing, to see an education system that actually forced you to learn.
Just received my alumni magazine today, my alma mater is ranked the best Scottish University for the second year.

IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates-wp_20130722_001.jpg

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But for reasons mentioned above I will not be too harsh in judging fresh graduates. I am not going to be hyper criticial on what the fresh graduate does or does not know, but as long as they demonstrate they have the core concepts in place and shows an ability to grasp things quickly, that will be enough for me than the fact that some one missed getting the 75% minimum in 1 out of 60 papers by 1 mark or doesnt know what is the significance of Ramanujan number.
The core concepts questions will baffle most FCD (First Class with Distinction) candidates. That is the longest standing grouse of mine in this thread.

Example...

Me: Name some of the courses from the final semester.
He: Software Testing, Network security, blah, blah...
Me: When did you write the exam on Software Testing?
He: Last month.
Me: Can you name different types of Software Tests?
He: Ugh.. um... don't remember, it was a while back.

When I report such instances on this thread, I get slammed for being a heartless SOB, trying to show my superiority by harassing the poor but brilliant FCDs.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 18:11   #458
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I can sympathise with what Samurai is saying.

Some experiences from my side...

Once many years back I had a final year MBA student from a mid level MBA institute in a south Indian state capital doing his project work coming to meet me in my office with a survey.

Me : Is this a random survey or have you identified your sample to be surveyed?

Student : No sir, this is not a random survey. I have identified my sample and your organisation is one of those I have shortlisted to do the survey.

Me : Good, Let us start. First question please......

Student : Sir, what is the name of your organisation???

Me : Go outside, look up what is written on the board, fill it up in your questionnaire and come back tomorrow with the next question.


Hope some of you youngsters following this thread understand what "Core Concepts" mean. And let me stress one of the most important atributes for any job is common sense!

Last edited by TKMCE : 22nd July 2013 at 18:15.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 18:27   #459
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Originally Posted by huntrz View Post
While I don't agree with many of the arguments that have been made in this discussion previously but this is something I too am troubled with. Even the industry is willing to recruit non comp sci graduates and I don't under stand why. Colleges are merely following the precedent by trying to churn out as many software degrees as possible.
.
There is huge disconnect between what is really required and what the industry is recruiting, thanks to the software services industry. Service industry made their money in the 90s placing guys onsite and most these jobs related to y2k conversion of commercial applications or you could say 90% of services industry's job relates to some sort of commercial application. For commercial applications, you don't need a computer science guy, the right person is the one who understands commerce and if he can do some programming, then great. In fact most of the commercial application developers abroad fall into this category. Commercial application pertains to capturing data at the point of origin and make analysis in the form of reports from the captured data for management consumption. Then why our so called Software industry recruit only BE/computer science graduates for such jobs?....To beat the immigration laws of the country where he has to be placed. Computer science graduates are in short supply, hence it is easier to push a computer science guy abroad than a mere graduate. This is why US employees are screaming, accusing us of robbing their job. As of now the onsite placement is drastically coming down, hence the services industry started recruiting any graduates who can program.

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Old 22nd July 2013, 21:09   #460
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Comp.Sci M.Tech is the only program which allows people from other branches to join. Is it even possible for somebody from unrelated branch to join Civil, Electrical, Electronics, or Mechanical engineering M.Tech?
Other branches also allow graduates from different branch to join (E.g. Aerospace). But they do test the person for ability/wilingness for that branch.

At least in decent collages, it is really tough to join CS from a non CS branch. Look at GATE-CS curriculum:

http://www.gate.iitb.ac.in/gate2013/cs-syllabus/

It covers pretty much all of 4 year Comp Sci B. Tech. If someone can clear this exam and get into M. Tech of tier 1 collage, that peron has a pretty decent knowledge of Computer Science.
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Old 23rd July 2013, 05:09   #461
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In reality IIT CSE Depts behave like pedigree dogs (notwithstanding than most of the faculty has a non-CSE background) treating all others like street mongrels.
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Old 23rd July 2013, 06:18   #462
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In reality IIT CSE Depts behave like pedigree dogs (notwithstanding than most of the faculty has a non-CSE background) treating all others like street mongrels.
Interesting. IITD CSE (specifically embedded systems group) never had such a constraint - I was the only Elec guy doing a BTP there and was always part of the team!
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Old 23rd July 2013, 07:45   #463
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Interesting. IITD CSE (specifically embedded systems group) never had such a constraint - I was the only Elec guy doing a BTP there and was always part of the team!
Thats because you would have been the insider. The issue is if you try to get an entry into a CS program (say ME/MTech/MS) while your Btech is a non CS; then by rule many IITs dont allow that. Along with Gate in CS, they also demand Btech in CS. IISc used to allow that earlier. I hear they have stopped it in there as well.

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Actually, I wasnt responding to NetFreakBombay but to the specific comment by sgiitk saab: "treating all others like street mongrels.
I thought his comment was not just for projects but for also students coming in for a fresh masters program. Hence my point, that most IITs now they have stopped the admission itself. As regards to how non CS guys are treated, I dont know that aspect.

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Old 23rd July 2013, 07:48   #464
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Thats because you would have been the insider. The issue is if you try to get an entry into a CS program (say ME/MTech/MS) while your Btech is a non CS; then by rule many IITs dont allow that. Along with Gate in CS, they also demand Btech in CS. IISc used to allow that earlier. I hear they have stopped it in there as well.
Actually, I wasnt responding to NetFreakBombay but to the specific comment by sgiitk saab: "treating all others like street mongrels.
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Old 23rd July 2013, 08:21   #465
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Woof, woof... What is BTP? I think SG is referring to M.Tech kennel.

Isn't there an additional angle to this? Most IIT M.Tech seekers are from non-IIT colleges, trying to get some IIT brand magic.

I have run into quite a few colleagues over years who boast about their IIT pedigree within the first minute. Only when I dig deeper they reluctantly admit their BE/B.Tech was from somewhere else.
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