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Old 6th August 2013, 14:33   #526
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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By the way, Stephenov wasn't a fan of OOP - he thought it was a hoax.
Yes... Well, nobody is perfect. As a scientist, he looks at it as a purist. For us, it is a design technique, a very useful one.

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The advantage of PB was simplicity and robustness. It is still very popular, considering IBM has a division which does only PB-based maintenance.
PB is not for programmers. It is a tool for business analysts. BTW, IBM has a division for every long dead technology. They have a division for PS/2 that still runs OS/2, lots of clients are still using it.

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Native use of pointers and malloc and calloc were in c, anyways c++ is c with classes .
You cannot use malloc/calloc/free with C++ classes, who will call the constructor and destructor?

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if you thought i was trolling with regards to c++ being c with classes, that is how we taught in our college days lol.
The name "C with classes" was given up in 1983. If they still teach it that way, your lecturers must think C++ is C with some extra syntax. Not surprised at all.

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i would love a small writeup by any of knowledgeable folks about what is expected from a person in a development/programmer role.
Read Joel Spolsky's speech at Yale: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/12/03.html
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Old 6th August 2013, 14:33   #527
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that is how we taught in our college days lol.
Well, all Indian engineering colleges seem to use a early 1990s compiler to teach C++ - so you cannot expect more.
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Old 6th August 2013, 14:43   #528
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wish this section had a thanks button. samurai sir, i wish i had someone like you to teach me programming, i really am interested. carboy sir, yes, that's the shame there. we were taught to remember c++ as being c with classes, and the ++ means that the classes were added. deralte ji, i meant, how well are sharepoint developers received.
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Old 6th August 2013, 17:15   #529
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samurai sir, i wish i had someone like you to teach me programming, i really am interested.
I am a self-taught C++ programmer, like most C++ programmers. There are lots of resources if you want to learn, much much better ones than I had.
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Old 6th August 2013, 23:56   #530
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Default re: IT Industry and Employability of Technical Graduates

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Not sure whether you have noticed, 'programmers' today expect design to be created by a 'designer' (or the Team Leader or the PM - whoever is the closest to lay blame on), and be provided building blocks (not different from Lego blocks used by children) with which they will put together a part of an application 'as per design provided by designer'.
If you look at it from a business' perspective, you generate value by taking a low value raw material and transform into a high value product that can compete in market.

Anybody can produce world class software by having 10 designers in a team. That's not value creation, it's more like value destruction (look at opportunity cost of having designer in a team). You are better off having one designer to design the product while employ low-cost developers to do the ground work. And you can not take it in isolation. If your competition is doing this, you cannot survive using a holistic approach.

Last edited by Samurai : 7th August 2013 at 00:25. Reason: that was weird...
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Old 7th August 2013, 10:55   #531
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If you look at it from a business' perspective, you generate value by taking a low value raw material and transform into a high value product that can compete in market. ...
That is a rather lop-sided and short-sighted view applied to a 'product' that predominantly relies on intellectual abilities - software development.

* Over the last 10 years, the Indian IT industry has proven to itself that such approaches don't work other than for low-value service delivery. Different matter that the volume of the service is in billions of dollars - that doesn't make a wrong right. It is completely untrue in Product Development - and those 'billions of dollars of low-value service delivery' pale into insignificance when one looks at the total market for Product Development services. How much presence do you think India commands in that sector? What is the volume of business that "Captive Units" (this is a standard term for a Product company using a 'captive' Indian arm) generate?

* The ground reality is completely different from what 'brilliant' managers spout as homilies and have propagated this myth. Such 'low value raw materials' continue to remain 'low value raw materials' only - nothing changes despite all the publicity and 30K' level abstractions

* As software development is an endeavour completely driven by humans, one has to realize that even team efforts depend on each person's individual knowledge and control on processes and productivity. This is true for ANY endeavour completely driven by humans, whether Army or (non-mechanized) Agriculture

* Sure, everyone wants upward mobility, don't they? How do they achieve it? Horizontal movement across companies! Over time, these 'low value raw materials' - who lack the expected abilities - cause a disruption in the operations where they have been deployed with the expectancy of a certain level of productivity

* What matters in the industry is efficiency and productivity - both for margins, volume and value-creation. 'Low value raw material' is the primary reason for reduction in these factors. *No amount* of such mythical "transformation" helps any business

* Compare India's share of the Product Development market with that of countries like Ukraine, Taiwan, Korea ... No one there talks of "transformation of low value raw materials" as a business proposition to be proud of. They don't build their businesses using intellectual janitors

The problem is, we are so starry-eyed with the 'billion dollar' success story of the "IT services" that we fail to realize the size of the other market: trillions of dollars. And we haven't even scratched the surface of the market with our short-sightedness
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:00   #532
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* Compare India's share of the Product Development market with that of countries like Ukraine, Taiwan, Korea ...
I didn't know that we had a share of the Product Development market at all!!
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Old 7th August 2013, 11:12   #533
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I didn't know that we had a share of the Product Development market at all!!
We do. I don't have ready access to NASSCOM data but they are so pathetic it doesn't serve their interests!
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Old 7th August 2013, 15:00   #534
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We do. I don't have ready access to NASSCOM data but they are so pathetic it doesn't serve their interests!
. In other words, we have a long way to go. But currently, the economy being as it is, there is a certain lack of motivation i am witnessing these days. Seems like its all up for how someone survives till the end.
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Old 7th August 2013, 15:35   #535
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... the economy being as it is, there is a certain lack of motivation ...
There is no link between economy and software ("IT industry"). The "lack of motivation" is what bad managers cause. Stock up to cover projected high consumption, which doesn't come, which leads to non-moving stock ('bench'), which leads to delayed intake / throttling, leading to feeling of "lack of motivation" in people outside.

BTW, Sharepoint is not a programmers' job - more a system integrators'. When programmers dabble with Sharepoint, it invariably results in an unusable system - IF they finish it, that is.

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Old 7th August 2013, 15:37   #536
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. In other words, we have a long way to go.
Worse than that. We are not even walking in that direction. Don't know when they will turnaround and face the right direction.
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Old 8th August 2013, 10:16   #537
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There is no link between economy and software ("IT industry").
Actually sir, my context was that with the current prices of the three essential items being at an all time high, there are a lot of my colleagues who are disgruntled and feel that they are not being paid the amount they deserve. And i agree about the manager part. I wonder how they will tackle the current situation atleast in my workplace.

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BTW, Sharepoint is not a programmers' job - more a system integrators'. When programmers dabble with Sharepoint, it invariably results in an unusable system - IF they finish it, that is.
I thought it was more of a development kind of a task, since we were being asked to train ourselves in asp.net in depth. They told us that more reference material will be provided on request. The unusable part, lol i have seen many such applications being put to bed after not having a chance to see the light of day.

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Old 8th August 2013, 11:21   #538
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there are a lot of my colleagues who are disgruntled and feel that they are not being paid the amount they deserve.
I wonder how they figured this out. In my personal opinion, 80% of the IT industry is thoroughly overpaid thanks to the high margin that was prevalent in this industry.

The IT industry is full of American type managers described in this story.

Since the managers run the show, this problem is never identified or admitted. However, this can't be sustained any further as the margins have shrunk dramatically since the sub-prime crisis. The investment bankers who caused the crisis got bail-out and walked away unscathed. But every other industry got hurt pretty badly, the ripple affect has spread all over the world.

Customers who gladly paid $100,000 for a service, now loathe to pay even $25,000 for the same service. Our IT industry which is run by American rowing team model, was sustained by the high margins. That gushing of dollars has reduced to a trickle. Now every IT company large or small has to look inside and see who really deserves their salary. At first I suspect they will fire the rower...
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Old 8th August 2013, 11:25   #539
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We do. I don't have ready access to NASSCOM data but they are so pathetic it doesn't serve their interests!
NASSCOM is running like a typical Govt. organisation serving the interests of bigger service companies. It was little bit better when Dewang Mehta was on the board.
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Old 8th August 2013, 17:25   #540
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... there are a lot of my colleagues who are disgruntled and feel that they are not being paid the amount they deserve ...
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... In my personal opinion, 80% of the IT industry is thoroughly overpaid thanks to the high margin that was prevalent in this industry. ...
+1

Have they considered what makes them think where that "deserve" came from? I am sure they have no clue what that is linked with. Grass is always greener on the other side! Don't compare your salary with what your peer gets somewhere else.

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... I thought it was more of a development kind of a task, since we were being asked to train ourselves in asp.net in depth. They told us that more reference material will be provided on request. The unusable part, lol i have seen many such applications being put to bed after not having a chance to see the light of day.
"Put to bed" is an even that occurs *after* it is created. I was referring to the fact that most don't ever get completed for one reason or the other.

ASP.NET is a low value web applications front end programming type of work. Whether one likes it or not depends on one's sense of achievement. 90% of the time one does what the average guy does in a web page development shop, only a bit more complex if you are into enterprise-grade applications.
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