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Old 17th November 2009, 21:55   #46
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Guys, Chill, please do not get into a few Vs many or one Vs many discussions.

Following are the facts

1. There is "herd mentality" towards engineering as an education and this is resulting in supply >>> demand

2. Jobs are not getting created that faster, downturn is making the situation worse, employed people are also getting redundant making general skillsets available at lower costs than previous years.

3. this results in higher entry barriers for the freshers, these entry barriers are in the form of filters, tests, interviews etc. While applying the filters it may so happen that a good candidate also gets filtered. But if that guy is really good, he will re-attempt and come out as a winner in the next evaluation.

4. only those candidates who does not have strong core (= skills sets, learnings, attitude), keep loosing in successive occations

5. It may also happen that a particular candidates communication abilities, network/influence or soft skills may mask his/her inabilities during the interviews, his/her real mettle would be tested once he/she is on the job. Some of those candidates may overcome their inabilities by faster learning curves and deliver / exceed expectations as well.

Cutting long story short

1. everyone need to make their core strong (fundamentals, learnings, technical skillsets, attitude, soft skills)

2. focus on what we can influence i. our own behaviour, our own efforts

3. keep building our differentiators (higher education, speciality skillsets, differentiating skills, network in the industry etc)

4. Continue to keep positive attitude (optimism, never give up, keep learning and improving, not letting the head leave the shoulders/ feets leaving the ground, always doing the own work in an excellent manner etc).

5. help people where ever possible by putting ourselves in their shoes

Last edited by StarVegabond : 17th November 2009 at 21:59.
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Old 17th November 2009, 22:42   #47
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I then ask him questions about computers. If he is able to answer a few questions, I understand that he really has got knowledge and was interested in IT field.

And I am not talking about the oldest computers. I ask him questions from my BCA syllabus. If he expects me to know it, he must know it too.
Really surprising. This must be a company run by someone who is not a developer himself.

Since this is BCA, most of stuff is really basic. If someone is interviewing a fresher, he ought to know the basics.


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If he expects me to work for X hours for Y Rs./month, he must be ready to work for atleast similar amount of time for Y+1 Rs./month.
That is way off. Your expectation is baseless.

In this situation, I would be more than happy to do odd jobs to get a "foot in the door". Even if that means doing work that you don't like (E.g. I might not like tasks like converting PSD templates to html).

But if that is what makes up for lack of premier collage than that is what you need to do.

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Next, value of time. If I am called at 11:00 am for interview, I expect the interviews to start at 11:00 am, 2-5 mins are given.
..
..
Again here IT compaines feel they are ultimate, but if one really wants to see how important time is and what is emergency, they must go to any industry like powerplant or refinery.
..
..
Next is attending calls when interview is going on.
This is nit-picking.

See, If you want to be a developer you need to start small and handle these kind of bosses or companies. Once you have ~2 yrs workex you can jump to better companies.

That is if you are not from a collage that has good campus placement.

Or you can start building your credentials on topcoder.com / codechef.com / stackoverflow.com and so on. Than you can jump the queue and join a large organization.
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Old 18th November 2009, 00:21   #48
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
1) you do realize that the interviews are taken by HR and a few selected tech personnel? If that's what it takes to get into a company, well, you should learn how to tackle them.
chances are once employed, you will not need to exercise many of the skills you may have learnt. but they still make a good foundation. unfortunately it's a matter of demand and supply and supply far exceeds demand. some people are going to be disappointed, that's the bitter truth.
1) Then how will HR department know if I am good at writing code ? Or in short how will HR manager know that I am good for the job post they are interviewing me ?
This is IT field, where knowledge is very important thanks to ever changing needs and tools. Here, I wonder how a HR manger would know how much I am useful to company.

Supply, I lost a job in a computer MNC just because someone applied contacts. That human came after me, was taken simultaneously and then I was offered another post. Here is where I fully applied X and Y logic.
Things are bitter in real world.

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
a
2) aggoswami, by your logic, if I can't answer a question on calculus, that would make the fresher more eligible than me?

In fact, I won't be able to answer any question on calculus because I haven't used calculus in 20 years.

Idea of an interview/written-test is not see who is superior. I am sure freshers have much better handle on discrete mathematics than me. Being from electronics branch, I have never studied discrete mathematics in college. All I like to see is whether the fresher is able to apply his/her knowledge to solving problems.
My point is, if you ask for calculus, you must know it first.
If you dont know calculus, its not a problem. Fact is you must have sufficient knowledge about the topics you want your fresher to accomplish. It would not be an issue then.
The best way is to give the candidate a machine and tell him to write a small simple code. This will give out many details.

What I have faced is ridiculous set of questions. Why are you not score 90% in this. Tell me how can I take you ? Tell me what you know with just 60% marks ?
Here is where I have to get a bit aggressive.

Again I repeat, I am just putting up my experience and incidences about why IT field graduates face issues. I am not pinpointing to you.

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post

3) Really surprising. This must be a company run by someone who is not a developer himself.

4) Since this is BCA, most of stuff is really basic. If someone is interviewing a fresher, he ought to know the basics.

5) That is way off. Your expectation is baseless.
In this situation, I would be more than happy to do odd jobs to get a "foot in the door". Even if that means doing work that you don't like (E.g. I might not like tasks like converting PSD templates to html).

6) This is nit-picking.

See, If you want to be a developer you need to start small and handle these kind of bosses or companies. Once you have ~2 yrs workex you can jump to better companies.

7) That is if you are not from a collage that has good campus placement.
3) Most of them are from are from developer field, but they are really not that competent. All of them want to become manager, but very few are really interested in developer field. And they feel after becoming manager they get superlative rights.

Here its very difficult to get to base of companies that are not very large.

4) Correct. It ends up in ego fight.

5) Yes, not the best of arguments, but I fire this when I feel they are demanding bond or if they end up asking irrevalant questions. Not a thing I use normally.

6) As long as its small issues I can eat them, but not bonds, not the bosses that are just not upto the mark. I cant take questions like is this what you are taught ? Cant you handle a paper properly.
Clearly there is big issue of exploitation. I cant stand there.

7) I am from MSU, Baroda. Its not that campus are not there, but I cant appear there becuase of past academics failures.


This is IT field, not a refinery or power plant or such industry. Here, knowledge is more important than experience at the end of the day. In engineering, an impeller will remain that only. An equipment worth 20 crore will remain like that for 15-20 years. Things dont change fast.
But in IT, those who are not able to keep themselves updated end up being bosses.
Also exploitation is the reason why people wonder if an IT professional has not changed companies.

Only reasonably big companies are able to deliver good work environment.

I agree that I am now too much rigid and not sufficiently flexible, tolerance is not the virtue I love anymore. But at the end of the day, I realized that those who are employers are not sufficiently upto the mark. I have given lot of interviews and can clearly say this.
May be I am not positive enough to get good opening.

But empolyability is low thanks to multiple factors. Things have to get restructured everywhere, from the root i.e. school. At college level, go for fundamentals and not marks.

In general, I have seen that Gujarat is not the best state to explore IT opportunities.

Again I repeat, no personal offense to anyone. At both ends, there has to be improvements. Its not that freshers are Gods. I have faced question like how to use Visual studio from freshers. I am not supporting them, but sometimes one has to suffer.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 18th November 2009 at 00:28.
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Old 18th November 2009, 05:05   #49
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Technical knowledge alone is not sufficient. The top companies look for a well rounded person, who is passionate about his field, and shows a willingness to learn. Technical competence can be judged fairly with a Technical test, but judging the truthfulness of a candidate during an interview, and the aforementioned qualities require someone from the HR department.

Some of the questions that they might ask are designed to put one under duress, but it's the candidate's perseverance, and his ability to handle pressure that they want to judge. Needless to say, stupid/provocative/probing questions need to be dealt with a cool head.
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Old 18th November 2009, 09:14   #50
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My 2cents, since I've been there and done that.

The fact that most engineering graduates coming out of colleges are not employable is true irrespective of reasons contributing to it. The causes as many have rightly pointed out here are many, but the most important ones being-

1. Lack of encouragement to independent thinking and analysis which is crucial for engineering. In fact I would go so far as to say there is a hidden discouragement to this trait. This stems from our societal values which places obedience above all.

2. The gradation of students based on final exams be it semester or annual, which is a big culprit since it drives students to just focus on clearing that final hurdle.

3. The malady of parents pressuring their children to score more marks/rank which gives a kind of superiority status to their kids in family circles.

4. Finally the bad state of the colleges which are just doing business making money and the mediocre quality of what passes for teaching.

5. The horrible practice of companies blindly jumping on the bandwagon to hire engineers even for selling a soap/towel because they are mass produced.

6. Last but not least- Lack of motivation in students either because they don't receive encouragement in where their interests lie in or lack of guidance in their respective fields.

As samurai pointed out our school system until 10+2 is fine though not best but all this rutting starts when the same bright students from school step in to the degree college.
The 4 years of college literally kills their creativity , poor kids.

Last edited by zaks : 18th November 2009 at 09:15.
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Old 18th November 2009, 09:19   #51
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
aaggoswami, by your logic, if I can't answer a question on calculus, that would make the fresher more eligible than me?

In fact, I won't be able to answer any question on calculus because I haven't used calculus in 20 years.

Idea of an interview/written-test is not see who is superior. I am sure freshers have much better handle on discrete mathematics than me. Being from electronics branch, I have never studied discrete mathematics in college. All I like to see is whether the fresher is able to apply his/her knowledge to solving problems.
Absolutely Samurai- That is what I was driving at. I would expect young graduates, just out of college to know what they've learnt at college well, and apply them towards problem solving. I dont need to know if they can code in Java well, but definitely need to know if they've picked up OOPS during their training programme. Programming languages, syntax etc., can be learnt. What I look for, is that a candidate has learnt what is supposed to be learnt, at college. Now, if the candidate is a geek and happens to be one of those who should have ideally dropped out of college and started a to be multi million start up the service industry may not be the right place for them.

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Old 18th November 2009, 09:38   #52
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I think being involved for almost 33 years I may be in a position to comment on some points.

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Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post

1. There is "herd mentality" towards engineering as an education and this is resulting in supply >>> demand
Agreed. if I recall corractly as per the UR Rao committee repost about five years ago, the number of seats was 400k+ and the demand 50k-.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post

4. only those candidates who does not have strong core (= skills sets, learnings, attitude), keep loosing in successive occasions

5. It may also happen that a particular candidates communication abilities, network/influence or soft skills may mask his/her inabilities during the interviews, his/her real mettle would be tested once he/she is on the job. Some of those candidates may overcome their inabilities by faster learning curves and deliver / exceed expectations as well.
Communication skills are increasingly coming to the fore. Quite often our curricula are obsolete. I know of some higher end institutes starting 'bridge courses' to update the skill set of graduates.

At present it is estimated that about 85% engineers graduating are unemployable.

One other issue which has been left out is the quality of raw material Almost every state has seats going abegging. People scoring even 0 in the SEE's are being admitted.

As we say, the proliferation of engineering colleges has pushed the unemployment problem from Class 12 to Class 16!
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Old 18th November 2009, 10:06   #53
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@aggoswami: 10 years from now when you come across a fresher you will have a totally opposite perspective to what you have right now. Trust me.

One thing is for sure. If you are dedicated and focussed nothing can stop you from getting what you want. Don't get into unneccassary nonsense.
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Old 18th November 2009, 11:28   #54
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Only reasonably big companies are able to deliver good work environment.
Thats not true. Startups created by a techie would give you great environment to learn hard core technology. Much better than most of large IT Services companies. Just forget about life outside work for some time

With large companies, advantage is you can change your job without changing employer.

Bad Job/Bad boss would come across your way regardless of company being large or small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
In general, I have seen that Gujarat is not the best state to explore IT opportunities.
True, it would not have as many jobs as Bangalore/NCR/Chennai/Mumbai/Pune. Start networking NOW

1. Have at least a few patched in projects like Drupal / WebERP (technically not challanging but great visibility)
2. Start solving problems on stackoverflow.com
3. Get active in local Linux usergroups

And you would not depend on campus placements for job
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Old 18th November 2009, 11:38   #55
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Thats not true. Startups created by a techie would give you great environment to learn hard core technology. Much better than most of large IT Services companies. Just forget about life outside work for some time

With large companies, advantage is you can change your job without changing employer.

Bad Job/Bad boss would come across your way regardless of company being large or small.
+1 to that. I was in a company called HeyMath at Chennai, a friend of mine works there. Thought the work environment was great, with really bright people working there, the ambience resembled one of joy and enjoyment, than one of stiff professionalism. Bean bags strewn around the place, carrom tables with people taking a break, it was an absolute joy to watch.

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Old 18th November 2009, 12:04   #56
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If I recall corractly as per the UR Rao committee repost about five years ago, the number of seats was 400k+ and the demand 50k-.
This is typical of any emerging economy or developing society, there is either supply >>> demand resulting in wastage of resources or demand >>> supply resulting in shortage of resources.

This herd mentality has not left even the entreprenuers.
We can see it in every majot sector, IT, Retail, Telecom, Airlines, creating over capacities.

in fact this is better than shortage of capacity.

eventually market forces would balance the supply vs demand.


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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Communication skills are increasingly coming to the fore. Quite often our curricula are obsolete. I know of some higher end institutes starting 'bridge courses' to update the skill set of graduates.

At present it is estimated that about 85% engineers graduating are unemployable.

Few of the alternatives are

1. building more job oriented learning (rather than conceptual) as a part of education

2. building specialization programs similar to the one in medicine field. different experts for ear, nose, throat, eyes, heart, brain, lever, female, child, cancer, swineflu etc etc

3. raise the bar of performance for Passing. today a person getting 40 marks is considered pass, it was same even when i was studing engineering. This raising the bar would ensure pre-filtering in the school itself so that the NOT-READY candidates are not dis-appointed and do nto clutter the market

4. building alternative career options than just engineering. e.g. Economist, Chartered Accountant, Financial Analyst, Industry Analyst, Advertisement Executive / Creative Writers/designers, Chef, Event Manager, Travel/Tour Managers, Merchandiser, Buyer, Sales Manager, Agriculturist, Food Technologist, Export-Import-Logistic professionals, pharmacy professional, Non Banking and Banking/Investment Professionals, Town / Infrastructre Planners, architects, Media Analyst, Journalists, etc etc,

4. Counseling the parents and students during 9th/10th/11th/12th classes is key for identifying the strenghts, weaknesses, alternative options, personal preferences, choices/likings, pressures, long term outlook etc.
then identifying the right career streams as an informed choice.


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One other issue which has been left out is the quality of raw material Almost every state has seats going abegging. People scoring even 0 in the SEE's are being admitted.
There are couple of issues here, first is over capacity, second is insufficient awareness/affordability among the talent pipeline.

this is also pure greed of the people who are running the institutes and the political pressures which make them admit students who have scored zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
As we say, the proliferation of engineering colleges has pushed the unemployment problem from Class 12 to Class 16!
well said, this can be avoided if real capabilities are built and supply Vs demand is balanced.
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Old 29th November 2009, 16:58   #57
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I actually came here to start a new thread on this topic. I finished my engineering in june this year and since july I have been working(?) for one of the Indian IT Majors :P

First things first, I absolutely hated chem in 12th, I didn't take it up seriously back then. I always felt in the software industry your talent mattered. It was purely merit oriented, nobody cares if you know organic chemistry and compound blah blah. To sum it all up, I sucked *** in 12th, coz I had no interest in learning all that crap.

But I have seen people who can't write a simple "Hello World" program in C get jobs in Tier 2 companies. People who never made past the first round aptitude written test of services companies in campus placements. People who can't speak fluent english. They have now landed up with jobs that pay 4+ lakhs per annum by appearing for their interview off campus.

I even know a guy who, one day brought me a C aptitude written question paper and asked me to solve it. I learnt later that he had got the actual questions that were going to be asked during the placement later that week. Now he earns 5.5l pa.

I can cite endless examples like this. I always thought, working for a software company would be fun. Getting paid to program, build fun things. What more could one ask for. But it seems I was lost in a parallel universe. I now spend most of my weekdays endlessly dragging my bottom around in my current firm's sprawling 335 acre campus :(

I have a lot of friends who have very good aggregates, who have sound technical knowledge (for a fresher). They are struggling even to get a job in a small company. I know the market's been bad etc. But it always ruins my mood when I hear about these others landing up with high paying jobs in good companies.

Most of the people in my university (VTU) who have 80-85+ percentage aggregate don't know jack. They learn lab programs by heart. 99% of the people just buy their 8th sem projects from one of the many institutions. They can't even clear simple aptitude written round of campus tests.

I have always written my own lab programs. Did my own 8th sem project with no assistance. Heck, I even topped my university in the later sems. I topped my class for degree etc etc. But where are all the nice software jobs? I tried sending my resume to a few companies but none even bothered to acknowledge my mails. Have I entered the software industry a little too late in the day? OR are all the jobs being taken away by people who have influence/question papers before hand? why do the companies keep hiring the wrong sort of people and keep complaining about employability?

Now, the only way to set things right, it seems is to pursue a masters degree. Even though a master's degree will not help me write better programs, I have to spend lakhs of rupees to go abroad and spend 2 more years studying. And whats the guarantee that the same things won't happen again? :(
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Old 29th November 2009, 18:24   #58
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Ho0ligaN, I am not sure what you are unhappy about...

While the facts you mentioned are about right, what is the problem? You do have a job with an IT major, why are you dragging your bottom across 335 acre campus? Isn't that in Mysore, don't they provide free cycles?

Why are you worried about how much others are making? Don't you know it is much tougher to get jobs off-campus?

BTW, you can't have everything in life.

Fun : Money : Career - Pick any two!
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Old 29th November 2009, 18:42   #59
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@Samurai I can haz money and fun??
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Old 29th November 2009, 19:42   #60
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@Samurai I can haz money and fun??
by all means you can have money and fun (w/o worrying about career)
if your are a Ba Baa Be (Bade Baapka Beta = Son of a Big/Rich Father)

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