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Old 19th November 2009, 21:15   #16
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Originally Posted by ksethuram View Post
Army - They were always superior than us in this anyway. Even now it applies..
Airforce - They were far superior before, even with low numbers we have closed the gap with superior technology. Still they have a slight advantage.
Navy - We were and are ahead of them as of now. They have massive plans to close us and overtake by 2015. Even then strategically they are not in a better position.
UnManned vehicles (Missiles, icbm etc) - China can attack any city in india, but India can't with its current capabilities... So they are far ahead.
Space research - They are far ahead of us... We will need another decade to go where they are now...China would be far ahead by then.

Even after all these advantages, in an eventual war, China is not is a good position... Why??
1) We are a democracy, western powers value democracy more than a communist government. So we will get good support internationally.All countries know that if they don't support India it will be costly later. Hitler taught the west about this through Poland.
2) They are sorrounded by Russia, India and Japan.. So geographically they are not in a good position. They are dependent for oil and these trade routes, else they will choke to death... (moving oil through pakistan will be a nightmare as it can easily be countered.)
3) All of China's cities are near costal areas. This pose a great threat to them as their Navy is weak.

All these considered, China cannot fight a prolonged war as they will be chocked until they are dependent on oil and trade... They know their limitations and will not do any mis-adventure in the near future.
Navy : China is not revealing all its muscle power. China is serectly developing and even deploying navy vessels. At the current rate of expansion, China's Navy will be biggest army in the world by 2020, replacing US.
Defense is something we are really weak at. We just cant match china which is in top 5. If we were to number superpowers of the world as per their strength, China is third after US and Russia. India is considered to be 6th.

India is a gone case without doubt in front of China. China has done everything in a very well planned manner. Much depends on how US and Russia behave in future.
We are not even able to take back POK, all that was done is referrenderum in UN. Obama can speak anything on which parts belong to China. We have n number of internal problems to deal with, forget competing against China.

The world will not beg in front of China. They will snatch it if real energy crisis begin.
India had potential, but India has ruined itself due to internal problems that range from corruption to communalism and regionalism. Now Naxals and such rebel groups are added to the list. In future, I think it will not be difficult for even Bangladesh or Parkistan or China to come over and rule on us. Our defense development has stopped execpt Agni missile.

Its quite hopeless situation for us.
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Old 19th November 2009, 21:27   #17
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my few cents,

I have been visiting China since 2001. initially once or twice a year,
but sicne last 2-3 years atleast once a quarter, some time twice a quarter. my impressions are based on my visits to chinese cities viz.
Shanghai, Shenzhen, Suzhou, Jiaxing, Beijing, Guilin, Macau as well
as Hongkong (post 1999, it is under chinese rule) as well as
interactions with my chinese colleagues and business partners.

1. Geographies and Demographies would always be a winner in the long term. China is one of the largest countries in terms of land and the largest in terms of people. This means they have more land to grow food, have factories, to build houses, to create employments etc. This also means that they have more working hands and thinking brains. These are the ultimate compettive advantages.

India is not very much behind, India is 7th largest in terms of land area and second largest interms of people.

2. Political System and Governance are totally different in China Vs India.
What China has done is very simple, promise/deliver jobs for everyone, engage majority of people in gainful activities (often forcefully), provide food, housing, restricted freedom to do what people want to do. This ensures that people are fully engaged with their life. There is no/limited participation of people (except the communist party members) in deciding the future governance/policies. There is only government controlled media, very controlled financial markets.

India, we have (often) chaotic democracy, failed socialism, limited participation (~50% of people only vote) of people in deciding the future governance/policies. We have a Free press, but has their own agenda, to sensationalize (some of the) the events.

3. Chinese have Extreem Pride in themselves, what they fear most is loss of face in front of outsiders. They would do anything to ensure that they do not loose face or save their face. This can be seen in every thing they do e.g. The way they managed the recently concluded Olympics, or the way they build thier infrastructure.

In India, Pride is often a mask, we seems to be willing to hide/swallow for some petty gains. We has a member of society, tends to think for ourselves and not for the society / community as a whole. We are most of the time waiting for a crisis to emerge and then to act and thrive on the the confusion. (e.g. see the common wealth games 2010 organization)

this is the key differentiator in how China (or chinese people) work, plan, execute on their vision/projects. This ensures that they complete most of the projects in time, with the quality.

4. Foreign Direct Investment

China has been attracting >40B$ (2 Lac Crores) FDI every year, since last 10-15 years, where as India has been attracting only 10-20% of what China attracted, only since last 4-5 years. this is the key difference why China could create the infrastructure Vs why we have not been able to do.

Their governance, simple entry procedures and execution abilities are the reason why the FDI is consistantly flowing year after year, where as in India, often companies have withdrawn after declaring the investments as the clearances, land acquisition, labour issues etc have taken too much time and often difficult to overcome.


But India has more to offer,

1. We are a democracy which is better than single party rule in the long terms, we would be much more balanced in decision making.

2. We are better thinkers, probably becasue of our mythological history, values, education, culture etc.

3. we have more tolerant because of diversity we have in our country, if we address the basic issues (Food, Clothes, Shelter, Jobs), then we would have engagement of all the communities in creating peace.

4. We have the largest English speaking workforce who is our ocmpetitive advantage

5. Our Middle Class is growing, it is expected to cross >51% of the population by 2026, that is the time our politics would change, taking into consideration the aspirations of this growing middle class. From now to 2026, the West side of India would grow to become "western like" infrastructure, but it might take another 20 years for the eastern side to grow.
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Old 19th November 2009, 21:30   #18
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If you open a thread like this being in China, you will be sent to a Gulag. Case closed.
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Old 19th November 2009, 21:58   #19
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My 2 cents - I always thought that the population is actually working against us. I mean the rate of population growth and the density of population. While China is a huge country with a large population, comparitively, we are a smaller country with a large population. What if, our population was half of what it is - think of how much lesser strain on the economy, lesser consumption, more exports, lesser people on the roads - the list is endless.

Why doesn't even one government come up with the one child policy.
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Old 19th November 2009, 22:03   #20
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China is in a big soup because of one child policy, you want us to follow that flawed policy and fall into the same soup?
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Old 19th November 2009, 22:53   #21
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Originally Posted by naveenroy View Post
I always thought that the population is actually working against us. I mean the rate of population growth and the density of population.

Why doesn't even one government come up with the one child policy.
Any Un-natural Birthcontrol would result in serious concequences in the long run.

Today our greatest strength (and also our weakness) is our population
>65% of our population is less than 35 years old.

These hands and brains are very productive for the country and economy provided they are engaged in gainful activities. Every year, it is estimated that ~ 4.5M people cross over to 18+ years, We (= democracy = government) need to create employment for these people every year. else they would do dangerous things which are bad for the society. some of the unrest in our country is becasue of this reason.

These young population of India is referred to as Demographic Dividend.
currently stock price is under performing, but potential is very high, we need to invest to grow the performance and stock price, Till then we
need to wait for booking our profits.

Last edited by StarVegabond : 19th November 2009 at 22:57.
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Old 19th November 2009, 23:21   #22
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Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
1. Geographies and Demographies would always be a winner in the long term. .....

3. Chinese have Extreem Pride in themselves, what they fear most is loss of face in front of outsiders. ...

4. Foreign Direct Investment
Their governance, simple entry procedures and execution abilities are the reason why the FDI is consistantly flowing year after year, where as in India, often companies have withdrawn after declaring the investments as the clearances, land acquisition, labour issues etc have taken too much time and often difficult to overcome.


5. But India has more to offer,

a. We are a democracy which is better than single party rule in the long terms, we would be much more balanced in decision making.

b. We are better thinkers, probably because of our mythological history, values, education, culture etc.

c. we have more tolerant because of diversity we have in our country, if we address the basic issues (Food, Clothes, Shelter, Jobs), then we would have engagement of all the communities in creating peace.

d. We have the largest English speaking workforce who is our competitive advantage

e. Our Middle Class is growing, it is expected to cross >51% of the population by 2026, that is the time our politics would change, taking into consideration the aspirations of this growing middle class. From now to 2026, the West side of India would grow to become "western like" infrastructure, but it might take another 20 years for the eastern side to grow.
1) I think out of China, India and Japan, we are the one with highest density. This does play a big role, but when we look at Japan, it teaches us something. Its an island, was very badly destroyed and affected in 1945, has more natural problems than what we have. Earthquakes are an example of it.
By area, China is 3rd after Russia and Canada. US is fourth. We still have many resources available, but still we are not acting in positive direction. Japan has less thinking brains than us, even for that matter S.Korea has less thinking brains that us, but look at what they have achieved. The arguement that more thinking brains does not hold true.

4) As far as automotive rules go, they have one rule that the forigen car makers can operate in China only if they tie up with a local company and the local company has a higher stake.

5)
a) What have we achieved till now. Again compare Japan and India. They came up so fast, and look at what we are still today. Arugments like US got freedom 200 years ago, India will be good after 200 years of independence are meaningless. Today with the given technology, we must have developed ourselves faster than anybody else.
Democracy is not helping us anywhere. How many of us vote ? What are the positive changes that are being brought in by each and every successive government ?

b) Corruption is now rampant in education system. What values are you talking about ? And the quality of thinking is probably getting lower and reason why there is short sightedness.

c) Have we really grown tolerant ? We are tolerant is an outsider hits us, but internally we keep on fighting. Naxal and Mao prove we are infact fed up of something.

d) How has it helped our defense and infrastructure ? We still have to buy fighter jets. Our infrastructure is bad. How does this thing help. The answer is that they get employeed and end up paying high taxes for others to enjoy.

e) The middle class pays tax, gets poor security, infrastructure, etc. and they also die because of Netaji's security arrangement.
This is a figure, but when we look at end result, in 10 years, have we grown positively ? What about poverty, unemployment, basic education, mentality ? Have they changed ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by naveenroy View Post
My 2 cents - I always thought that the population is actually working against us. I mean the rate of population growth and the density of population. While China is a huge country with a large population, comparitively, we are a smaller country with a large population. What if, our population was half of what it is - think of how much lesser strain on the economy, lesser consumption, more exports, lesser people on the roads - the list is endless.

Why doesn't even one government come up with the one child policy.
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Old 20th November 2009, 10:51   #23
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what we need is a selective tsunami that will swallow all our politicians.
lets wait till "2012"
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Old 20th November 2009, 11:02   #24
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I have a query - how many of us here are absolutely sure that China doesnt face the zillion problems that we people here in India face?

How many of us here are sure that whatever we get to read about the fantabulous road infrastructure built by China is actually what it is?

The basic point is,China is behind iron curtains.Whatever we get to know is only whatever the Chinese govt want us to know \ portray out through the controlled media.

Even with all these media curbs,news did filter out about the huge unrest in one of their provinces.

Remember that you are talking about a country which agreed manipulating its TV feed with CG during the Olympics opening ceremony.What we saw on TV was different(How much is a big question) from what actually took place.

IMHO,I would anyday prefer a creaky democracy that our country is.More often we never realise the abundance that we have in hand unless we are deprived of that.
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Old 20th November 2009, 11:22   #25
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With all the glitches in our society if the people running the show (or rather trying to) put the nation above themselves we should be fine. Corruption is our main problem, any new project will not see the light of the day unless our babus fill their pockets. Our laws dont allow us to punish the culprits but only to protect the innocent!

What has happened to the people accused in various scams till date? nothing they are all moving abt freely. The latest being Jharkhand CM who has not shown up when the investigaing agency called him saying he is campaining

So called citizens are willing to ransack colleges, pubs and joints saying people dont dress up properly but will just stand by the corruption in the system, we dont have guts to ransack the paliament if a road is not completed, if there is no electricity, when there is no water and so on.
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Old 20th November 2009, 11:36   #26
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1. Corruption and letting do the corruption are the major big time problems of India.
2. Population is another thing which puts burden on all resources. Be it gas, infrastructure or food.
3. Discipline - Every tom dick n harry love to break the discipline as if they are born to do that.
4. Lack of interest to fulfill the promises made by politicians. They are all busy milking the system and poring our hard earned money into their swiss accounts.

Few observations since past few months:

1. GQ never got fully completed even after years of its announcement. Infrastructure plays a big role in the economy.
2. CBI probe into Swiss bank account details never kicked off. Ruling and Opposition both party politicians were scared. So everybody was unhappy about the development.
3. Though "Marathi manus" issue is valid and totally accepted, the way MSN portray/implemented it is totally wrong.
4. Even after "Billion vote" campaign the LokSabha election turn out was a big let down.
5. A normal daily wager from Jharkhand became CM and built an empire worth 4000 cr. No man on this planet earth without corruption can achieve this in few years.

What I am doing:
1. I follow or rather try to the fullest to follow all traffic rules to make mine and others life safe.
2. I do not take my car if I am travelling alone. I save on fuel by walking to near by paces.
3. I do not take "easy ways" in govt related issues. I am thankful to god that I do not have to deal with such people daily.
4. I vote in every election. I dont mind standing up in queue for couple of hours.

India is a great country with very corrupted people. Jai Hind.

Last edited by neoonwheels : 20th November 2009 at 11:38.
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Old 20th November 2009, 14:14   #27
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India indeed is a great country . But its time to start putting the interests of the nation before looking out for oneself in selfish ways. We cant wait till 2026 for the middle class to become 51%. It has to start now. Simple things like educating others about hygiene, walking more, following traffic rules, etc, etc. for example, if there were trash bin/receptacles strategically placed in public places, we would have much less of a littering and refuse lying everywhere problem. Politics probably cant be changed anytime soon but people need to stand up for what they believe in and weed these crooks out. Democracy has been given to us, we should use it. At least we have that option. Education of the rural and poor needs to be taken up on a war footing. Bring these people into the 21st century. Come on, we have some of the brightest minds in the world. If we can reduce corruption to minimal levels, then some big gains can be made rapidly. One thing that i think should be done immediately is to raise the salary of public servants, more specifically the police force. if their salaries are good then they have a less incentive to take bribes, etc.
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Old 20th November 2009, 14:57   #28
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China opened up its markets to the world in the 80s and India did the same in the 90s. So, technically, we are a good 10 years behind in the market/FDI/Infrastructure race. But in reality, another 8-10 years can be added to that figure.

Such is the incompetence of the Indian political and bureaucratic system. Yes the system is unfair and corrupted. Individuals with criminal backgrounds are elected to the Lok Sabha. The amount of red tape can be mind boggling. Our roads are well, improving.

Having said that, how many of us actually do anything about it? How many of us use the RTI act, approach the courts or take up issues with our free press to fight injustice or corruption? It is time to look within ourselves. Stop complaining. Start doing.
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Old 20th November 2009, 15:16   #29
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See an article which is apt for reading with respect to the discussions here :

Why India cannot be an Asian power like China: Rediff.com India News

I think Mr Raman has hit the point vis-a-vis Indian strategy or the lack of it !!
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Old 20th November 2009, 15:33   #30
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China opened up its markets to the world in the 80s and India did the same in the 90s. So, technically, we are a good 10 years behind in the market/FDI/Infrastructure race. But in reality, another 8-10 years can be added to that figure.

Such is the incompetence of the Indian political and bureaucratic system. Yes the system is unfair and corrupted. Individuals with criminal backgrounds are elected to the Lok Sabha. The amount of red tape can be mind boggling. Our roads are well, improving.

Having said that, how many of us actually do anything about it? How many of us use the RTI act, approach the courts or take up issues with our free press to fight injustice or corruption? It is time to look within ourselves. Stop complaining. Start doing.
Some days i seriously think we just need a dictatorship that just puts everyone to work. But coming back to reality, it cant be just one person. A group of people, preferably now the upper middle class/middle class that should stand up and fight. Write in to your local newspapers, call the news channels and make your points heard. I know most of the media outlets have an agenda (i swear to god Times Now is like the FOX news of India, lol), but still. Hell i would write in if i just didnt have exams now..i prolly will after though. Better yet, instead of idiots protesting stupid things like whether or not some Mahesh Bhatt movie should be shown or not, they can go protest against the inept government. I think the vast majority of the politicians and public servants in this country either A. need to resign or B. go to jail/stand trial for robbing the nation of progress. When the Karnataka CM can spend god knows how much taxpayer money on doing up the official residence, then this country has seriously gone to the dogs. Where is the outrage? if this was any other place, people would be in the streets by now!
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