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Old 27th November 2009, 13:39   #31
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Nikhil, please take help from cops to track the culprits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panky12345 View Post
all said and done.. i can assure you (based on personal experience), as long as you have the credit card charge slip, bank can't debit your account under any circumstances. remember, this is THE PRIME document that would establish that the card was physically present at the time of transaction. preserve it and you're SAFE! :-)
Charge slip does not ensure that card was physically present.

Charge slips can be generated by cloned cards as well. That is why charge slip is not valid unless singed by customer.

As per RBI laws banks has an obligation to complete a chargeback unless it can be proved that customer authorized the charge. Except from a case with RBI:

Quote:
Complaint in brief:

The complainant stated that he was a Savings Bank account holder maintaining
good balance with Madurai branch of X Bank since taken over. During his visit to
Malaysia between 2nd
February and 16th
February 2003, he used the Proton card
in a computer shop for purchasing a computer worth Rs.40,000/-. However the
card was rejected by the machine as the permissible amount per day was
Rs.15,000/- as per the terms on which the card was issued for usage abroad. On
checking up the statements, he was surprised to see 15 international debits in his
Savings Bank account on account of alleged use of Proton card between 10th
May 2003 and July 2003 amounting to Rs.28,981.33. Immediately, he gave
instructions to the Manager to stop the Proton card operation and lodged a
complaint about the wrongful 15 international debits amounting to Rs. 28,981.33.
He, therefore, requested the bank to reverse the wrong debits. The complainant
submitted proof that he was not abroad when the questioned debits took place.


Decision:
The complainant proved his point that he was away to Malaysia between 2nd
February 2003 and 16th February 2003 as per the photocopy of the passport
showing entry and exit to and from Malaysia. This was not contested by the
bank. The bank made an attempt to make a feeble plea that as per clause 45(c)
and 45(g) of the Proton Debit Card Userís guide, the bank shall not be liable to
the customer or any other party for any loss or damage suffered. The bank could
have got protection only if they could prove beyond doubt the complainant was
negligent. Unfortunately, the bank could not produce evidence to prove that the
complainant was negligent. Again the customer promptly informed the bank
about the alleged wrong international debits, the moment the statements were
made available to him when he called on the bank on 5th
July. The bank had
ample time and opportunity to take up with the acquirer to call back the charge
slips, verify the signature and charge back the account. This would have helped
the customer and the bank from any financial loss. Therefore, the bank is
directed to reimburse the complainant the 15 disputed international debits in the
account allegedly due to use of Proton card issued to him by the bank. The bank
may, if they desire, ask the complainant to execute the indemnity in its favour.
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Old 27th November 2009, 13:43   #32
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Nairji, we dont lose any money in this security feature. Because bank calls me whenever the card is swiped, so if I say I havent done such a transaction, its straightaway reported as stolen card. Bank takes the responsibility from that moment, customer is safe. That particular card number is hotlisted and cancelled, you get a new card.

What Jaguar has posted above seem to be the name of the trick. It sounds very much possible and in practice.
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Old 27th November 2009, 14:58   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nairrk View Post
@shaju - I dont think Citibank do have that minimum amount security facility on their cards. I have Credit cards from Citibank and dont remember they called me. This kind of arrangement or security is good, the max you tend to lose is Rs.5000, incase the card is being used by others?
Citibank does send an SMS if you swipe the card for more than 5k. It was started recently.
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Old 27th November 2009, 15:16   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwinsid View Post
A sticky situation. I wonder if I go and swipe my card, just give some address and number, then later if I say I did not swipe it, will the bank debit the merchant? Its a big scam then.

IMHO this is why all Credit/Debit cards should have the cardholders photo embossed on them.
Not true. bank doesn't unilaterally debit merchant. There has to be a genuine case and the customer needs to prove that he has not actually spent the amount before bank does anything of this sort. One incident I faced was double debit of the same amount for a single purchase. It looks easy to prove but took me more than 2 months to get the same reversed.
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Old 27th November 2009, 15:46   #35
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Nikhil, don't let the bank debit your account, the law states that no action done in good faith by any party must be penalized (mercantile law). If there is any fraud at the end of Credit Card company or holder, the Bank would have some kind of insurance to cover such transactions to refund the card holder, and its not your headache. Banks can only debit your account only if they can prove that you were guilty, which is not likely to happen. Hence, calm down and take the legal route, possibly with a lawyer incase bank debits your account after communicating the same with them. I personally feel bank wants to do this to minimize their hassles, but they are not correct in doing so. Do let us know the outcome though.
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Old 27th November 2009, 18:14   #36
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Though I cannot add anything substantial to this problem, Nikhil, I really believe that the bank needs to take charge of this situation. After all, security of transactions are their concern too. They are just trying to minimize their hassle.

I have had a problem involving Citibank and ICICI where my ICICI EMI was first "bounced" due to no credit from Citibank and then when the amount was credited, the EMI was debited but now ICICI say that they have not received the amount for that month.

Confusing - tell me all about it. But hope you get this sorted out soon.
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Old 27th November 2009, 18:39   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
One incident I faced was double debit of the same amount for a single purchase. It looks easy to prove but took me more than 2 months to get the same reversed.
Same has happened with me and many others at different places. Normally that happens when the merchant swipes the card multiple times on error display. And the normal correction takes 2 months from the statement generation.

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Originally Posted by naveenroy View Post
I cannot add anything substantial to this problem
Nikhil has enough problems and thank you for not adding more !
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Old 27th November 2009, 18:54   #38
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Quote:
NetfreakBombay : This is wrong information provided by bank.
@NF : I dont think the bank gave me wrong information. Also, see post by @IAmSwift :
Quote:
iamswift : Bank cannot directly cancel an approved transaction - atleast not in India. You can ask the merchant to rollback the transaction => This means the merchant himself is authorizing to cancel the bank off the transaction.
Quote:
NetfreakBombay : Unless you have singed on charge slip, and merchant has presented the slip to its bank, transaction is still not complete.
Correct. In my case, I was trying to stop the transaction while the merchant wanted to complete it, and wanted me to sign the slip. I had called the bank before signing the slip, but they said it cannot be done.

Quote:
NetfreakBombay : But if you have signed on the slip, bank can not reverse the transaction.
In Nikhil's case, if the signature on the slip matches the card holder's signature, then he should have a better chance of closing it in his favor.

Going OT:
Guys, reg the feature of getting a SMS from the bank for transactions above a certain amount : that will help the customer. We are currently discussing a problem faced by a Merchant, so let us not go OT.
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Old 27th November 2009, 19:29   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Correct. In my case, I was trying to stop the transaction while the merchant wanted to complete it, and wanted me to sign the slip. I had called the bank before signing the slip, but they said it cannot be done.
I have worked on these systems and know for sure this is not the case.

It can be canceled in multiple ways:
  1. Merchant can cancel it on POS terminal
  2. You can refuse to sign charge slip, Merchant's bank would not accept it during settlement. Money would be automatically be credited back to your account. Transaction would fail in "capture" stage. ****
  3. Card issuing bank can cancel it at their end
  4. Customer can raise a chargeback ####
**** : In this case it takes 4 - 5 days for money to be credited back to account. In some cases Merchant bank would not check if slip was signed or not. In that case customer needs to raise "charge slip retrieval" request.
#### : In this case it takes 2 months.


Case #3 comes up when Bank calls you in case you in case of high value transactions and you deny doing the transaction.
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Old 27th November 2009, 19:49   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@NF : I dont think the bank gave me wrong information. Also, see post by @IAmSwift :
This is incorrect Banks can always reverse the charge ,

If you have ever booked hotel rooms on internet using Credit card usually they block certain booking amount on the card and if you pay by cash while checking out or stay for less number of days the charge is reversed.

I have done it several times.
Few times at the point of sale amount entered was wrong and then also they canceled the transaction.

May be the call center person was either lazy or ignorant or simply did not understand what is being asked you should have demanded to speak to his / her manager.

Specially in case of Citibank it is a kind of scam that in first instance they always deny that anything is possible but on escalations things move.
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Old 27th November 2009, 21:47   #41
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Guys, thanks for all the suggestions. Nothing has happened as of now. I'll keep you guys updated. Didnt post in this thread because there is nothing to say.

As of now, we have sent the copy of the invoice, the photo copy of the credit card slip, etc.... to the bank. Let's see what happens.

Please keep your inputs coming
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Old 28th November 2009, 09:25   #42
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My comments are in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
I have worked on these systems and know for sure this is not the case.

It can be canceled in multiple ways:

Merchant can cancel it on POS terminal.
It can be a void transaction if the settlement has not been done.

You can refuse to sign charge slip, Merchant's bank would not accept it during settlement. Money would be automatically be credited back to your account. Transaction would fail in "capture" stage. ****

Capture would proceed as normal. It would be more of a reversal. Capture happens alongwith swiping of the card for actual EDC machine. For cases like e-commerce it depends if the merchant goes in for authorization and capture or just capture.

Card issuing bank can cancel it at their end

Customer can raise a chargeback ####
**** : In this case it takes 4 - 5 days for money to be credited back to account. In some cases Merchant bank would not check if slip was signed or not. In that case customer needs to raise "charge slip retrieval" request.

I guess the bank would need the charge slips for reversal. Which could take time.

#### : In this case it takes 2 months.


Case #3 comes up when Bank calls you in case you in case of high value transactions and you deny doing the transaction.
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Old 28th November 2009, 11:06   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Guys, thanks for all the suggestions. Nothing has happened as of now. I'll keep you guys updated. Didnt post in this thread because there is nothing to say.

As of now, we have sent the copy of the invoice, the photo copy of the credit card slip, etc.... to the bank. Let's see what happens.

Please keep your inputs coming
Nikhil,
On a different note, please also record serial numbers of the tyres and the manufacturing batch & date code on your invoice with a rubber seal / printed column so that there are no disputes later regarding any defects which might arise on new tyres supposedly bought at your shop and have them countersigned immediately next to the details and not anywhere on the invoice. Record the time of delivery, vehicle and it's number used to carry away the goods. Safer for you to prove that the actual delivery has taken place and avoid the remarks that these were recorded later by the shop.
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Old 28th November 2009, 11:13   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
My colleague called up Mr. X on his mobile number No.1 and he claimed that he's never given a complaint against us or anything.

What do we do? What's next?
Looking at this point you made, it seems like as Ganesan mentioned, the guy may be genuine, for con artists will not give their real numbers. Or he may be a con and would have given his real number in haste.

Anyways, since you have the guy's (Mr. X) address go and see if its real. If not try to trace the address using the phone number with the phone operator ( get police help if required)

If you are not able to get hold of X and find out X is the con, (which I think is most likely )- then proceed in that direction-
police complaint,
finding out if X2 is X ,
If Mr A really lost his card and the con gave X=X2 as the name to just to misdirect
If Mr. A is part of a con team with A lying to have lost the card and issuing complaint after the transaction is done using someone else ( Mr.X)


Alternately, if you manage to get hold of X and he still acknowledges coming to you shop and acknowledges purchasing , then mostly there would have been some transaction error like Mr A billed instead of X ( which is very unlikely) then involve Mr. X with the the bank and get it sorted.

Most of the above is just some loud thinking just to give you some ideas, apologize if I have confused you more.
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Old 28th November 2009, 13:08   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
As of now, we have sent the copy of the invoice, the photo copy of the credit card slip, etc.... to the bank. Let's see what happens.
you're safe!
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