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Old 8th December 2009, 15:32   #16
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Originally Posted by akj53 View Post
a) This problem has been created by the entire population of the world so everybody will have to fight it rather than expecting only our leaders to pass some resolutions.

b) We can start doing our bit by simply:-

1. Reducing and stopping wasteful energy useage (whether of fuel or electricity) where ever possible. There are endless things to do under this classification. I write below some points, which I can think of, members may please add other points to this list.

- Conserve and plant more trees. Have more greenry.
- Install solar water heaters and discard central water heating.
- Start using reuseable things and boycott 'use once and discard' products.
- Cut down on air travel as it consumes maximum fuel on per mile per person basis. Railways are most efficient on this parameter.
- Reduce population by limiting your children to ONE.

This is what our sarkar can do
- Eliminate road blocks except in case of emergency. All sarkari babus who create road blocks to fill their pockets, force vehicle users to burn fuel unnecessarily.
- Stop sanction of centrally air conditioned energy guzzlers like malls, plazas etc.,
- Define minimum Green Building standards and all new building must meet those standards.
- stop 24 hour TV broad casting, limit it to 18 hours at most.
1) I disagree. Lets consider the laborers who work in building roads, constructing houses and reside by roadside. What is their contribution ?
Poor countries do not contribute as much as rich and developed.

2) India is 4th biggest polluter behind China, US, Russia. This is because of poor road infrastructure and corrupt government. In India there are many firms not adhering to norms.

About solar heater, well we have second one installed at home. The first one was installed before we shifted here and we sold off that for a new one.

Here I easily tell you that cost overall will increase if the design is not efficient. And maintenance ( if required in certain designs ) is expensive or next to impossible. The new is not as efficient as old one.
This is just good on paper but in reality a few complexities exist. Space is one of them.

There is one more heater on some large stand in shape of parabola. The focus is where we keep the object we want to get heated, but is impractical to use. One has to constantly adjust the equipment so that lights the object remains in focus.

About solar lights, we have 4 units of them installed, but none of them are currently operational. Regular maintenance is cumbersome and not possible considering the work schedule, etc.

The only way out now is increasing green cover. Nothing else is going to help. Just this thing of increasing green cover. Some students in my college were doing some sort of research on this and stated that Neem trees are the best options one can have right now. Planting them in 2008 would have given result in 2011-12. There are many places where they can be planted like side of roads, on the boundary of lets say a party plot.

They said that its the only tree that will grow a bit faster than others and can stand in reasonable winds also.

Reusable products are always not in reach of everybody.

How can you that railways is the most efficient ? A 60 ton bogie carries around 70 or 72 passengers. Lets say that a train is overloaded and no. of bogies is 12. Lets say 120 passengers in each bogies, so total no. of passengers = 1440. Average weight = lets say 75 kg. So in all 108 tons of human weight. Lets increase that to 100kg with luggage or whatever. So total weight of humans = 144 tons.

Now total no. of bogies = 12. Total weight of bogies = 720 tons. So 720 tons carrying around 150-200 tons does not make sense to me.

The most efficient is bus in this case. Acceleration will use less energy than train and is overall better than Train. Trains use electricity and in order to produce electricity some pollution is there ( though this is true for diesel also ).

Trains are built in a way that they last long, not for energy efficiency.

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
For starters, impose stricter pollution norms for vehicles? Stricter enforcement of industrial pollution norms by state pollution control boards?

If mighty governments won't do it, who else?
Driver discipline ( leading to less acceleration and braking cycle ), good quality fuel and well surfaced roads can bring down the emessions from automobiles in India.
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Old 8th December 2009, 15:44   #17
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Point is, we are speaking as if Earth is at trouble. NO. We HUMANS are in trouble. Animals are in trouble. Plants are in trouble. Many might argue that Humans, Plants, Animals are what makes planet earth. I will not agree. We are inhabitants of planet earth. And earth is a celestial body. It has been here for billions of years and there is no indication that it will change soon. Life has been around here since 3.5 billion years (bacteria are a form of life too). We humans are here from a few thousand years. Indus, Maya and many such civilizations flourished and vanished from the face of the earth. Bacteria remain. Dinosaurs flourished and vanished. Mammoths flourished and vanished. Yet bacteria remained. Millions of species existed and became extinct. New species are discovered by humans. Unknown to us many more new species could be evolving. Every few years, mankind is amazed by new discoveries about our planet and its climate. When it was born, earth was a molten ball of iron, it was a liquid glob for millions of years, then when it cooled, it was a barren rock. Then there were volcanic eruptions covering the whole planet with carbon di oxide. Then there were chemical rains. There after many million years and several natural reactions later, it had an atmosphere. It had clouds, water, wind. Then there was life. Then some meteor hits and everything is in chaos. All over fire again. More carbon di oxide. Then entire planet is engulfed by ice. Total cold. No life. Then again volcanic eruptions. Again more carbon di oxide.

This can go on. Earth has withstood monumental disasters. It is strong. We are not. LIFE is not. Even a minute change somewhere can eventually lead to major catastrophes. So it is in our hands to take care of ourselves. I urge everyone to watch that documentary. It is both wonderful and scary. Wonderful because of the way it explains how our planet functions, so much beautiful things. Scary because it shows how we have affected it and also about a lot of damage we have done and we dont know about. So please watch.
This ideology reflects the effects of natural phenomenon on Earth. What is happening now is that the Human race is causing a very deliberate and unnatural damage to the earth. The deliberation should stop
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Old 8th December 2009, 21:07   #18
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I wonder...who are we to decide what is good and what is bad for the earth?

The earth has been here long before we came to the picture and I suppose that it will still be there with or without us. The paranoia is probably because we are at the receiving end or at least we see ourselves at the receiving end.

As someone has already pointed out, the earth has seen a lot and has shown great resilience and will in all probability continue to do the same.

At the same time, it is a good idea to try and make the world we live in a better place to live in. In that, I do support the activity around Copenhagen.
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Old 8th December 2009, 21:34   #19
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

How can you that railways is the most efficient ? A 60 ton bogie carries around 70 or 72 passengers. Lets say that a train is overloaded and no. of bogies is 12. Lets say 120 passengers in each bogies, so total no. of passengers = 1440. Average weight = lets say 75 kg. So in all 108 tons of human weight. Lets increase that to 100kg with luggage or whatever. So total weight of humans = 144 tons.

Now total no. of bogies = 12. Total weight of bogies = 720 tons. So 720 tons carrying around 150-200 tons does not make sense to me.
you may be right, but not because of your reasoning. Why did you not put the equivalent numbers for your personal car? add to that the stops needed and gas needed to re-accelerate it for the same distance. trains rarely stop between stations. The running cost of a train (to the nature) is lower than a car or bus. what makes it higher is:

1. initial cost of construction, rail cars, engines, and the biggest of all, rail tracks.
2. huge yards need to repair and maintain them.
3. running them at ridiculously low occupancy in developed countries. Yes, only because they love to live in luxury. redundancy comes at a cost.
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Old 8th December 2009, 23:31   #20
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You know it surprises me that we're this brazen about the earth. The earth has survived fires and what not and will continue to do so? Am I really reading this kind of bullshit? And then, there are people like Jeremy Clarkson. He really needs to stop talking about things he hasn't got the first clue about. And his viewers would do well not believe every word he says.

The earth is changing and it is a fact. The icecaps are melting at an alarming rate. Global temperatures are certainly rising too. Here's an article from the BBC. It was published today! BBC News - This decade 'warmest on record'

What the scientists and environmentalists cannot prove with absolute certainty is whether humans are responsible for this or not. But even the most ignorant chap here would agree that there's a damn good chance that it is, at the end of it all, our fault. And when there is a chance, no matter how slight, that we're destroying the planet, its about time we woke up and did something about it. Because if it is destroyed a few decades from now, we've got nowhere else to go. And imagine how idiotic we'd look if it turns out to be our fault but we firmly refused to believe that we might be responsible.

By all means, have a debate about how to go about cutting emissions with as little economic impact as possible. But a debate on whether we should even bother acting is ridiculous. A quote that I read a while back comes to mind. "Genius has its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped". What is remarkable is how true it rings.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 8th December 2009 at 23:35.
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Old 9th December 2009, 08:27   #21
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
1) Why did you not put the equivalent numbers for your personal car? add to that the stops needed and gas needed to re-accelerate it for the same distance. trains rarely stop between stations.

2) The running cost of a train (to the nature) is lower than a car or bus. what makes it higher is:

1. initial cost of construction, rail cars, engines, and the biggest of all, rail tracks.
2. huge yards need to repair and maintain them.
3. running them at ridiculously low occupancy in developed countries. Yes, only because they love to live in luxury. redundancy comes at a cost.
1) Hmm. I think any given day cars will not be as efficient as train. You are correct here. I am talking about train VS bus.
And how many stations are there ? In a 120 km MEMU trip from Vadodara-A'bad, there are many stations where a train will stop. Too many in number. This surely hurts efficiency.

2) Train cost is less, but the energy efficiency is not the best. In our cars, trucks, busses, we have rubber wheels. When the vehicle moves, the rubber sidewalls flex leading to loss of energy. This is something trains do not have thanks to metal wheels, but the weight ? Its simply too much to carry. IIRC, a wheel weight is a ton and axle weight is 1.2 ton in India. Imagine these things slowing down, braking and again accelerating.

Next, the current rail lines are overloaded. We need more tracks but that is not very easy and a lot of green cover can be lost in this. And due to increased no. of trains, many times trains have to stop in between or slow down as they donot get berth sometimes.

India :

The biggest loss comes in the form of aerodynamics. The railway bogies and engines are more than 10-11 feet tall ( I think they are 14 feet tall ). They are too boxy and one of the reasons why they lose a lot on efficiency.

Buses are no good here, but we can have certain changes incorporated to improve aerodynamics.
Roads like Express highway and metro rail network for intercity travel will help for India.

Posted just what I had read and think.
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Old 9th December 2009, 08:57   #22
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Its not just about earth, its the existance of life form on earth. There is evidence that water did exist on some planets years ago...the same should not be said about earth after thousands of years by some aliens !

Its only human not to learn from the past and from what we discover on other planets. Things cant be stopped but most certainly can be delayed to a great extent with due care .

On a lighter note, we should concentrate on technology that would help people freeze cryogenically for a good thousands of years ! lol
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Old 9th December 2009, 20:48   #23
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Wolfheart , after reading your post, I feel you are indirectly coming to the same point as I mentioned.

You say even if Tigers come back after million years, we wont be there and other similar things. That means we need the tigers for us?

Anyways, let me list a few points:

1. I am not one of those who thinks global warming is a scam.

2. The documentary I spoke about, EARTH - The Power of The Planet is not some oil company sponsored stuff. It is hosted by Dr Iain Stewart. Do google his name. It is by far one of the most easily understandable scientific documentaries I have seen. He clearly shows how we are destroying our home in this universe. And please, nonchalant is a strong word to say. Kindly do check Dr Iain Stewart's credentials. Or even better, do try to watch that documentary. Really good.

3. But what he says is whatever happens due to global warming, the earth will be fine. Human civilization will be wiped out. So Yes, global warming is happening. Yes, it is affecting lot of things. Yes, it may eventually lead to disaster. But, our civilization will be affected permanently. Earth will rebuild itself. We cant. So in order to save our civilization, we need to ensure we safeguard the environment.

4. If tigers become extinct, then maybe even after a million years, they may not come back in the same exact way. The animals will evolve in a way that they can adapt to the surroundings. In that documentary, they show how, elephants who were stuck in a large piece of land in the mediterranean for hundreds of years, evolved in such a way that after many generations, the size of elephants were significantly small, just one feet tall and few hundred kgs. Why? Because the island was small so to adjust large number of elephants, nature made them smaller over many generations. Same way, lot of other things.

Point is, we are speaking as if Earth is at trouble. NO. We HUMANS are in trouble. Animals are in trouble. Plants are in trouble. Many might argue that Humans, Plants, Animals are what makes planet earth. I will not agree. We are inhabitants of planet earth. And earth is a celestial body. It has been here for billions of years and there is no indication that it will change soon. Life has been around here since 3.5 billion years (bacteria are a form of life too). We humans are here from a few thousand years. Indus, Maya and many such civilizations flourished and vanished from the face of the earth. Bacteria remain. Dinosaurs flourished and vanished. Mammoths flourished and vanished. Yet bacteria remained. Millions of species existed and became extinct. New species are discovered by humans. Unknown to us many more new species could be evolving. Every few years, mankind is amazed by new discoveries about our planet and its climate. When it was born, earth was a molten ball of iron, it was a liquid glob for millions of years, then when it cooled, it was a barren rock. Then there were volcanic eruptions covering the whole planet with carbon di oxide. Then there were chemical rains. There after many million years and several natural reactions later, it had an atmosphere. It had clouds, water, wind. Then there was life. Then some meteor hits and everything is in chaos. All over fire again. More carbon di oxide. Then entire planet is engulfed by ice. Total cold. No life. Then again volcanic eruptions. Again more carbon di oxide.

This can go on. Earth has withstood monumental disasters. It is strong. We are not. LIFE is not. Even a minute change somewhere can eventually lead to major catastrophes. So it is in our hands to take care of ourselves. I urge everyone to watch that documentary. It is both wonderful and scary. Wonderful because of the way it explains how our planet functions, so much beautiful things. Scary because it shows how we have affected it and also about a lot of damage we have done and we dont know about. So please watch.
Ashwin,

1. I understand what you're trying to say.
2. I will check out film.
3. My point being that many people just find excuses to be deliberately ignorant of the damage us humans are causing around us. We have become too greedy and don't want to take responsibility for our actions. Everywhere you see mediocracy thrives, people are thinking less for themselves and let the media and other propaganda subconsciously influence the way they think and behave. If there's a documentary that is giving you a message that hey go ahead do whatever the heck you're doing, the earth will eventually take care of itself. We don't have to look at the earth as just a celestial body it's much more than that isn't it. It's home! It's where we are born , where we live, thrive and prosper. We share this planet so many wonderful life forms that never cease to facinate (you're right, new species are being discovered as we speak even now in the 21st century). If some film is prompting you to look at it as just a celestial body that will take care of itself and maybe at make us feel that climate change and mass extinction of species is a disaster but not as bad as we thought then no matter whom it is presented by, I would give it two thumbs down. However it seems that I may be judging the film without watching it. So let me get around to watching it first!

Cheers
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Old 9th December 2009, 22:41   #24
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First off, I am not some extremist, tree-hugging guy who seems to think that the Earth will be destroyed in a few hundred years going by the rate it is. But I am one who thinks that Global Warming is true and happening. I do not endorse extreme ideas like dumpster-living etc. But I do know that plastics and all our wastes litter the Earth. For me, it is all a bl00dy eye-sore and especially in India, it would look much more beautiful without all the pollution. I have recently been photographing sewers - yes, believe me when I say that. With my friend, we are planning to do an exhibition focussing on the beauty even amongst sewage. It has been a stink to take photos at places like this, but more than the stink it is with sadness that I see that plastics and what nots litter the sewage water. Where does this all end up? The seas - the cradle of life as we know it. And it is sad to know that dolphins and fishes suffer the pollution that was caused so many hundreds of kilometers away! And the cycle begins - from fish to other larger beings - man included.

There is no way that we can completely stop our carbon emissions. But just a small effort - for each one of us to reduce our carbon emissions in some way or the other, every single day will go a really long way. Not in saving the Earth - the Earth will withstand all this. But our life-form and most importantly - to give our children all this. I would certainly love to see my kids and grand-kids be able to breathe the lovely mountain airs and eat fresh food, fish from the ocean - without fear of contamination of any sort. Downhill it is, atleast make a decision to reduce the downward spiral - for the kids.
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