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Old 22nd December 2009, 20:45   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxima View Post
Are debit cards safer that credit cards or is that a myth?
A Debit means money is out of your account right away. In case something happens, you are out the amount till the time the bank gives it back .

The only thing is that international misuse is not that prevalent.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:07   #17
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You'll definitely get your money back, but the bank will take investigation charges (Rs 300 or so) and 2 months of time.Under discrepancy, they will refer to the signature on charge slip and it's kind of fool proof.

I had an ICICI bank card and surrendered it for the reason said above - they are not reachable and takes not less than 10 mins to get a human being online.
Sam: I still think you had some luck else most of the time their systems are down. Use citi/stan chart, they have a small customer base and are reachable always ( personal experience).
you can still keep the icici card but on net/ places you don't frequent, use the card where the issuer bank is reachable.

Last edited by ~~h : 22nd December 2009 at 21:08.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:11   #18
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Sam, hold on..we are all jumping the gun a bit here..

1. As per recent RBI policy, for an online credit card transaction, apart from CVV number, you also need to authenticate some linked debit card pin or some other password kind (diff issuing banks have different policies)..are u aware about it..
For example, if I use my Citibank card online on say ebay, I need to provide the cardno/cvv/name in the ebay site..it then immediately takes me to Citibank online site where I need to key in my linked debit card number and netbanking password..only then the txn is authorized.

When did you make you last online txn via the internet. In case, some addl info like i said above is reqd, which only you can know, then your card cannot be compromised using only the cardno/cvv/name.

The above technology is known as "Verified by Visa/Mastercard Securecode". As far as i know this has become mandatory and all issuing banks must follow it before authorizing online payments.

2. Your mumbai airport based txn was a (EDC) chargeslip based one, right. Now, were u able to confirm with ICICI if the fraudulent txn is an online or EDC txn? In case it is EDC based, you can simply dispute the charge and ask for singed chargeslip proof? No hassles here..once you dispute, as per Master/Visa policy, the charge will get temporarily reversed until the investigation is completed.

In case it is an online txn, first try getting the details of the txn via ICICI..like which website/merchant/nature of txn (all banks store the txn type based on merchant where it was purchased like for jewellery/fuel/hotel/airfare etc etc).. and then take it from there.

Just try remembering if by some chance your Visa/Master secure code has been compromised..if yes, then the travel/boarding proof part will come into play.

My guess here is some kind of mis-posting. You have all the proofs..not to worry much..but with your bank, the experience sucks big time.

BTW, again, IMO, all bank customer care help line must be having a dedicated number/IVR option for reporting lost/stolen credit card, using which all the extra steps at the IVR can be avoided. Please check the same.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:23   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Come on man. You give your card to the cashier, he swipes it - you sign it and leave.

There is no way someone peeping over your shoulder can get all the numbers off the front and the back of your card in that span.
Not peeping over the shoulder Sam. I meant after you swiped your card and left the shop. The cashier might have given all the details to him and he might have taken the details.

What exactly is totenham hotspot. Perhaps that may be a clue.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:24   #20
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Some Credit card number Gyan found on the web:
How To Generate *Valid* Credit Card Numbers — Money, Matter, and More Musings

@ ~~h, AFAIK, AmEx cards are less prone to frauds as their user base and usable outlet base are small, secondly they use a different number scheme.

Am not a user of amex though.

@Sam, there are guys out there who can manage to take a photo of your card using a mobile phone cam without peeping over shoulder (an impossible task in your case), says the www.

Last edited by sandeepmdas : 22nd December 2009 at 21:27.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:28   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I see two possibilities at play here:

Most probable : Your CC number was compromised at the Mumbai duty free. The store attendant *could* have leaked it to someone travelling to the UK.
Less probable : Its a coincidence, but an exceedingly uncanny one at that. A website / other merchant where you shopped online leaked out info on your CC (intentionally / unintentionally).
The sheer timing makes the second one less probable.
agree to GTO here, it clearly looks like the case of card details duplication and the cloned card getting misused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdiatech View Post
Since in UK, the PIN is mandatrory for every transaction I doubt if the above scenario holds good. Unless the UK retailer is involved ( the pin request can be over-ridden on the EDC machine , by the supervisor password holder!)
there are still so many websites which doesnt require the Password or the code that you talking about. e.g. FreeCall | The cheapest freecalls on the planet!
and i reckon Sam's card has been used on such a site and these websites are not based in UK so they can get away with this extra password thing.

@Sam,

you dont need to worry about it all as you were not in UK and after every overseas transaction bank has to take your consent for the transactions, if you say NO, the bank blocks those payments.

I remember when i was india i used to use a Citibank card and someone bought books worth 30k from Amazon.com in US with my card.
Bank dint send me the mail to ask YES/NO and i was in india at that time, so i declined to pay that amount.

They issued a new card and made me fill a form citing that i dint use the card for that transaction and it was over.

So dont worry, its just a bit hassling as i know indian banks and specially ICICI, they are just there to trouble and cheat people.
Tell them in black and white that you dint do the transaction and wont be paying for it.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 21:30   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
What exactly is totenham hotspot. Perhaps that may be a clue.
Should be name of a shop as the only tottenham Hot**** people here are aware of is "Tottenham HotSpur" and its a football club.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 22:35   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Now my analogy:

I understand that a credit card cannot be duplicated as someone said. However upon reflection this is what I think MAY happen.

I repeat: This is merely an analogy, a guess. I have no proof.

I give my credit card to the salesperson at the Duty Free.

Its fairly straightforward to duplicate a credit card. Whole setup costs just 40k Rs. And point of sale is a place where people can easily "skim" the card.

Here is a video from law enforcement about it :

Last edited by NetfreakBombay : 22nd December 2009 at 22:36.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 23:07   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simply_sunny001 View Post
there are still so many websites which doesnt require the Password or the code that you talking about. e.g. FreeCall | The cheapest freecalls on the planet!
and i reckon Sam's card has been used on such a site and these websites are not based in UK so they can get away with this extra password thing.
I think this is not an online transaction, but a swipe sale at a retail outlet . HotSpot could be the name of a tanning salon in the Tottenham area ( Courtesy google ) and may not be a wireless hotspot ! ICICI will tell if this is a swipe sale, phone , or online !
My dear friend, any genuine retailer will not bypass the need for PIN. The rules are simple, if the PIN is entered then the retailer is safe in the event of a chargeback, if the PIN is over-ridden and there is a chargeback then by default the retailer loses money.

And why do you reckon that his card has been used on such a website ?

Last edited by vdiatech : 22nd December 2009 at 23:12.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 23:12   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~h View Post
Use citi/stan chart, they have a small customer base and are reachable always ( personal experience).
you can still keep the icici card but on net/ places you don't frequent, use the card where the issuer bank is reachable.
You know I've always assumed that Citibank's credit card base in India would be larger than ICICI bank's.

I have never used the ICICI bank card outside India. In fact I rarely use it (as I mentioned earlier) - my main usage is always HDFC (Fantastic service, always on time, never a dispute) and Citibank (Professional to the core)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post

1. As per recent RBI policy, for an online credit card transaction, apart from CVV number, you also need to authenticate some linked debit card pin or some other password kind (diff issuing banks have different policies)..are u aware about it..
For example, if I use my Citibank card online on say ebay, I need to provide the cardno/cvv/name in the ebay site..it then immediately takes me to Citibank online site where I need to key in my linked debit card number and netbanking password..only then the txn is authorized.

When did you make you last online txn via the internet. In case, some addl info like i said above is reqd, which only you can know, then your card cannot be compromised using only the cardno/cvv/name.

The above technology is known as "Verified by Visa/Mastercard Securecode". As far as i know this has become mandatory and all issuing banks must follow it before authorizing online payments.

2. Your mumbai airport based txn was a (EDC) chargeslip based one, right. Now, were u able to confirm with ICICI if the fraudulent txn is an online or EDC txn? In case it is EDC based, you can simply dispute the charge and ask for singed chargeslip proof? No hassles here..once you dispute, as per Master/Visa policy, the charge will get temporarily reversed until the investigation is completed.

In case it is an online txn, first try getting the details of the txn via ICICI..like which website/merchant/nature of txn (all banks store the txn type based on merchant where it was purchased like for jewellery/fuel/hotel/airfare etc etc).. and then take it from there.
The card in question is not verified by visa. Never had the chance yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simply_sunny001 View Post
and i reckon Sam's card has been used on such a site and these websites are not based in UK so they can get away with this extra password thing.
.
I found an interesting article from not so long ago
Thamesmead is London's fraud hotspot | thelondonpaper.com

And this too

London and South-East are the top fraud hotspots - CIFAS Online
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Old 22nd December 2009, 23:30   #26
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<Rant> ICICI customer service is inhabited by absolute morons </Rant>

Sam this fraud case seems an easy fix, but IMHO you must not stop at just getting the money back, please see if you can do a small bit to help catch the culprit and put him in the jail for some time at least.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 23:39   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
Imagine If you've lost your card, how are you supposed to know the number before you dial customer care? However ICICI does not grant you this luxury. You must first go through the maze...

...it makes you want to scream.
That's exactly the reason why I surrendered my ICICI cards. Since they have a huge customer base, their service sucks big time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proxima View Post
Are debit cards safer that credit cards or is that a myth?
With Citibank Debit Cards, you need to punch your PIN everytime you use the card at any outlet. Although its a pain sometimes, it reassures that your card is swiped before you and its safe. Not sure if we have this facility available with other bank debit cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
What exactly is totenham hotspot. Perhaps that may be a clue.
I think its (Store/Shopping Mall) PC World Tottenham Wi-Fi hotspot located in Tottenham which is 40 minutes drive from London Heathrow Airport.


IMO, it looks like someone created a duplicate card with your name & CC number and used it when you were traveling to Frankfurt.
And I don't think it could be an online transaction, because it involves CVV2 number as well as your online password.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
The card in question is not verified by visa. Never had the chance yet.
Sam, what do you mean your card is not verified by visa?

Last edited by Paradox : 22nd December 2009 at 23:43. Reason: Had to add a quick question.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 02:08   #28
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Sam, in all this chaos you have still not mentioned whether you finally managed to login to your Infinity account (ICICI netbanking) and check your transactions. They have an online Card statement page where each and every transaction duely reflects. If this fraudulent transaction does not show up there chances are it may be a case of some weird mismatch. Else you will need to file a complain.

Since you are out of India I suggest that you call up Visa toll-free helpline and ask them for help. Although these numbers are put in place to report lost cards they may still be able to help you. And they will be much more professional about it than the ICICI cust reps whom, to put it mildly, I find to be absolutely apathetic to customer issue at hand.

P.S.: If your card is not Verified by Visa then it is just not usable for any online transaction. So that leaves out a scope for online fraud. It was used at a physical location. Although there is a caveat to it. There are some "reputed merchants" whom ICICI (and I believe others also) provide special interface through which they can charge a card without it being physically available and this they can do bypassing the normal Verified by Visa route. This I have seen on my own.

Last edited by Zappo : 23rd December 2009 at 02:11.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 10:12   #29
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For online transaction ->
Visa asked for personal details like b'date. How did the guy know your b'date?
Mastercard requires a password to complete the trx. I find this to be safer.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 10:57   #30
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Damn - I just bought some stuff with my card at the Mumbai Duty Free on Sunday.

Let me check my statements asap.
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