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Old 27th August 2012, 22:52   #196
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Originally Posted by Prawaal View Post
1) The convenience and comfort, most of us are enjoying in India. It is very difficult to afford in Toronto. When I get up here in India, i have a cook coming over and cook breakfast/lunch for us. We have home help for cleaning, we have help for car wash and help to babysit our son. Had i to have the same in Canada, i would have to be a CEO of a company.
OK. Now, reality if I get a job in any other city than what I currently located in, I would also be making my own food, etc. and would be living in not so clean rooms on rent, etc. Nothing new.

Ask a person with 5-6 years of experience to shift to Bangalore from, lets say, Indore or Nashik and consider that he is middle class. Can he afford to buy his own house ? Can he afford fees for his kids, fuel for car and daily life expenses ?

Cost of living in India is very high unless you have your own house and residing in one city for long. Shifting to other city would hit you hard. I had given one presentation in 2009 stating that rising inflation and cost of living would actually kill the transfer of human capital. This is actually an almost similar scenario.

Can an average Indian afford a car ? Even a good second hand car ? In climatic conditions like we have in India, do you think that one can actually do without a car ?
Cost of Fuel ?

Developed countries have a lot of smaller yet significant things which make life easier, like a better public transport system. Or Cheaper fuel, efficient police ( relatively speaking ). An Indian was recently shot dead in Wisconsin, he was arrested. We know who was Scarlet and what was case. Is the culprit arrested ? Welcome to India. Female child is killed before even seeing the earth, crime against women are a daily news item, and we are talking about culture ? Really ?
ROADS INDICATE CULTURE OF THE NATION.

Anybody who lives a life of typical Indian middle class would not be happy with current state of affairs of India. Middle class pays DT and IDT, which is shameful for country. When will it improve ?
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Old 27th August 2012, 23:53   #197
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Adding my 2 cents based on my experiences in Canada. I have mostly stayed in Toronto downtown (Yonge and Wellsley). Also my experiences are based on staying with wife rather than staying like a bechelor.
Agreed that Canada is a beautiful place and most of us get facinated for cleaner surroundings and first world charm. However there were few cons which made me conclude that staying back in India is not too bad either..
1) The convenience and comfort, most of us are enjoying in India. It is very difficult to afford in Toronto. When I get up here in India, i have a cook coming over and cook breakfast/lunch for us. We have home help for cleaning, we have help for car wash and help to babysit our son. Had i to have the same in Canada, i would have to be a CEO of a company.
2) The racism here in India is very vocal and direct. However there it is more suttle and indirect. Somehoe that hurts me more.
3) For out kids to grow up, there cannot be a better place than India. If you feel that connection to Indian culture (read as respecting parents etc) is important, i dont think you would have the same if you bring up your kids in Canada. Most of my friends kids there hardly have any respect for India freedom fighters or the sacrifices they did to achieve independence.
4) A few of us create a small India there. We live in isolcated places and socialise only with fellow Indians, wear Indian clothes and do not adapt to Canadian culture. I somehow feel that this is also the best solution and if we finalize to move over to Canada, we should try being one of them than getting into a confused state. (Specially for our kids).

-Prawaal
Since you mentioned Canada specifically, let me put in my 2 cents too

1) Convenience and comfort- When I was in Bangalore, all these facilities were needed as we were never home till late in the evening. The first major change I found when I moved to Canada was that I got home from work at 5:30. That left me enough time to enjoy with my family and relax. I discovered that I love cooking now that I have time to experiment. Regarding child care, after hearing all the horror stories about daycare/maids in India, I can't even think of utilizing their services.

2) Toronto is one of the least racist places I have lived at (Whole lot less than Delhi and Bangalore). Both me and my wife work in multicultural environments.

3) Values and knowledge is instilled by parents. If the parents decide not to educate the kids, how is that a county's fault? Its natural that these things will not be taught in schools. On that note, I have notice that the often criticized schooling system here is so much more hands on than what we had in our time. Kids work on projects, make presentations and research stuff much earlier. The focus is on all round development and not just academic excellence.

4) Living in a ghetto (ok a cultural one!) is not the way to go if you want to assimilate in a culture. Toronto offers so much variety in terms of culture and food that restricting yourself to just one or two is criminal!

There's no perfect place - I am more happy here but that doesn't mean everyone will be.
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Old 28th August 2012, 00:05   #198
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(1) "more begging on the streets, even more of a gap between rich and poor, " - How does this personally effect you? Or do you just wish for a prettier neighborhood
Should I only care about things that personally affect me? How about if a person is dying in front of me? Do I just drive on? Good civic sense there


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(2) "undrinkable water" - You do have access to drinking water if you make more than, even, 5k a month.
Yes water in Bangalore is undrinkable, unless as you mentioned you buy it privately in bottles. Why does it have to be so? Even in my hometown Trivandrum, you can drink straight off the tap. Is this really that difficult a problem to solve? Plenty of cities in far less naturally blessed places seem to have this problem solved.

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(3) "unsafe streets at night" - Not true. Statistically, per capita crime is either comparable or much lower in India. Aus' per capita assault rates are 8 times higher than India (and rape and robbery incidents - per capita - are 51 times higher in Aus).
Further, Bangalore is a relatively safer city in India. You are far less likely to be attacked in Bangalore than Australia (or most non-Scandinavian Western Countries).
Will agree if the reporting rates in India were similar to those countries. A good number of those incidents overseas are instances of domestic violence. Do you really think wives in India (except maybe that 5% in cities) would report incidents like their husbands beating them up? Or even that most women report rapes?
I suppose you have read that thread about muggings & kidnappings in Bangalore? Yes I consider Bangalore unsafe when people look at me like I'm mad when I tell them that I go for a walk at night, something that I have done (almost) every night for the last 10 years in other cities.


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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
(3) "more stray dogs & cowdung on the roads, more traffic jams, potholed roads, flooded streets during monsoon" - Sadly, all of these contradict point 1. The Indian state is sadly quite broke - has some 6% current a/c deficit - it can either spend on infrastructure for the middle class, or welfare
Honestly, you can't ask for both
How exactly does it contradict what I said earlier? And why not ask for both? There seems to be more that enough money floating around for all sorts of scams. Its sad when educated people seem to just accept sub-standard mediocrity as normal. It just seem like making excuses for the sorry state of things. Again, several cities, even in India seem to not have as many of these problems as Bangalore.


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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
(4) "Pollution" - Well, you do drive a car (would be worse if you have children )
Yes, and Bangalore is not the only city where people drive cars. Why is this an excuse for Bangalore being polluted?


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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
(5) Corruption/Bribes etc etc - Have a lot of good sides to them, and are not always bad - Look at it this way, lawmakers are tyrannical megalomaniacs everywhere, at least a bribe lets you work around that tyranny

Not really. Have been in countries where there is a lot less grass-roots corruption. And i did not have to work around any tyranny.

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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
I am not for-or-against living abroad. I respect your decision to live abroad as well, but just be honest with your reasoning. Lifestyle in India sucks - say that. You don't need to touch-up that reason with other made-up reasons.

Dude, I'm not talking about India. I'm talking about Bangalore, and how I feel the city hasnt improved on so many important aspects in a decade. Its a city with a lot of wealth and wealthy, educated people. One would expect more from a city like that.



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I personally don't live abroad because I value freedom (from government control) over other things.
All I can say is you have wierd definitions for 'freedom' .
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Old 28th August 2012, 00:26   #199
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@KPGB,

There is no need for any agent to apply for Canada/Australia. All the relevant info is available on their websites. Anyone can do it with some research. Agents does not and cannot do anything more than what you can. There is a process in place and everyone has to go thru it. Agents do not have a special inside route to get you in. Please don't waste your hard earned money.

I always suggest that if you're going to work and not study in these countries, please research on whether they accept your degree. It's much better if you're going for a Master's or a Doctorate from these countries to get yourself into the mainstream workforce as soon as possible. I know that in Canada they did not consider them equivalent to a Canadian degree, in the case of Engineering and Medical degrees, at least not when I was there from 1993-'98. Lot of families got burned, especially the ones that moved from the Middle East, giving up pretty decent jobs. Please due your due diligence. I think the IT field is different from other careers.

US is different since, you'll need a job already in hand for you to get a visa, other than the family category. It's a much better system with respect to hitting the ground running.
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Old 28th August 2012, 00:41   #200
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Can you specify where are the speciality clinics in India where you can get it? I am interested in purchasing it as long it's not hugely inflated prices.

I can give you huge list of places in the US - there is absolutely no problem in getting it in the US. The only thing is that it's not required for a huge majority of hypothyroid patients, so most docs don't prescribe it.

By the way, T3 (cytomel) is also easily available in the US. But as far as I know, not available in India.
(1) There's a drug called proloid, marketed by pfizer (T3, mix of porcine and synthetic). AFAIK, it's reasonable priced.
(2) Some endo-specialist places should be able to get you natural or synthetic T3. But these guys mostly order online (and I guess so can you, once you have the prescription)

I had to call my friend's hypo wife for this info. She buys proloid.

Mod Note - Please stick to topic & avoid name calling.

Last edited by Technocrat : 28th August 2012 at 06:39.
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Old 28th August 2012, 09:43   #201
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Originally Posted by mohit View Post
There's no perfect place - I am more happy here but that doesn't mean everyone will be.
Very well said! Do proper research about the place, and then make the decision. Each personís /familyís requirement may vary from other.

By the way, noticed that most of the comparisons here are between US and India, which is bringing in some heavily polarized opinions
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Old 28th August 2012, 09:55   #202
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I am in that stage of life where there is a tug of war inside me, to decide whether to go to a foreign land or stay back in India. And the following makes me think more about the immigration/overseas opportunities.

I love India, for, this is the country where i was born, grew up using its resources (whatever limited it may be) and started a living. However, I have always been upset about the fact that:

- There is no cleanliness.
- No privacy (everyone wants to know what you doing, how much you earn, why not getting married and why you don't have kids, why did you buy the car instead of gold and what not !!!!)
- No respect for others; very evident when you are inside a bus, train or at hospital. Had more than enough bad experiences !
- No respect for rules while in India; we have been so used to breaking laws and rules, i think that's our birthright ! And after getting caught, starts the justification, ah ! That kills.
- Discrimination ? It's there at various levels, in schools, in college, at work, at public spaces and where not.
- Fleecing mentality; take anything, anywhere, people love fleecing and we are ok with that too ! (eg:- real estate, public services, hospital security guards, police and what not)

And the list goes on.

After having visited the United states (various states, multiple times) and knowing people from UK and Europe, i feel these countries atleast take care of the basic needs, which for Indians is a luxury viz., clean air, clean water, clean surroundings - and that's what we all need end of the day, isn't it ? There might be other grave issues that these countries face, no denying.

About freedom, family ties and others - The laws and fines might be really harsh there, but i think those are meant for those hard nuts who want to break the laws, not for you and me, the law abiding citizens.
And i keep hearing from NRI buddies and families about missing friends, family etc. I call that a farce ! When they were in India, it was tough for them to visit friends even for an hour, it was tough for them to visit parents and relatives when in need. And all these happened when they were a call away ! When they are abroad, they keep talking about the "missing" part. Can't believe them

I am at the risk of being called wrong here, but purely based on personal experience, sorry for the long posts and slight drift here. Further, its all about personal choice, whether to stay back or not ! There is good and bad about these decisions, and "grass is always greener at the other side"

Last edited by sunishsamuel : 28th August 2012 at 09:58. Reason: sentence
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Old 28th August 2012, 11:08   #203
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It should be accepted with grace that living conditions in the developed world is much better than in India. But you bet that's not enough to be happy with life.

What you need is a busy mind. In India even a mundane thing/errand offers a challenge. Your mind is mostly busy all the time.

If you are not really comparing the US and India, you will find that things are actually good in India.
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Old 28th August 2012, 14:18   #204
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Originally Posted by mohit View Post
Since you mentioned Canada specifically, let me put in my 2 cents too

1) Convenience and comfort- When I was in Bangalore, all these facilities were needed as we were never home till late in the evening. The first major change I found when I moved to Canada was that I got home from work at 5:30. That left me enough time to enjoy with my family and relax. I discovered that I love cooking now that I have time to experiment. Regarding child care, after hearing all the horror stories about daycare/maids in India, I can't even think of utilizing their services.

2) Toronto is one of the least racist places I have lived at (Whole lot less than Delhi and Bangalore). Both me and my wife work in multicultural environments.

3) Values and knowledge is instilled by parents. If the parents decide not to educate the kids, how is that a county's fault? Its natural that these things will not be taught in schools. On that note, I have notice that the often criticized schooling system here is so much more hands on than what we had in our time. Kids work on projects, make presentations and research stuff much earlier. The focus is on all round development and not just academic excellence.

4) Living in a ghetto (ok a cultural one!) is not the way to go if you want to assimilate in a culture. Toronto offers so much variety in terms of culture and food that restricting yourself to just one or two is criminal!

There's no perfect place - I am more happy here but that doesn't mean everyone will be.
I agree that at the end of the day it is a personal choice you make. There is no black or white here. But having said that there is no free lunch in this world. If you get some, you lose some.

Again coming back on convenience and comfort. We might enjoy cooking for a day or two, however washing dishes (even with dishwasher), dusting, sweeping floor or any other unproductive work might be something you might not like to invest your time in. The time I save on such things, could be used for recreational activities like running... And by now, i have been able to clock a decent timing for a full marathon. Plus this provides employment to few people as well.

Definition of racism might differ from person to person. So that’s OK. Someone might ignore, and someone might not.

Bringing up kids with Indian family values is very difficult in foreign lands specially it you don’t live in ghetto. Environment around has a larger impact on kids especially in their earlier years. Here in India, they would connect with their grandparents, great grandparents, uncles (read chacha, mama, cousins and their families etc). Celebrate Diwali, Ganpati, attend Indian weddings, attend Pooja etc. There in Canada, they would see their friends calling their parents by their first name. It is very difficult if not impossible to imbibe Indian family values in kids in such environments.

At the end of the day it is a personal choice. Only after doing good amount of due-diligence one should make this choice. More importantly this decision not just impacts you but your wife and kids too.

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Old 28th August 2012, 15:35   #205
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@KPGB,

There is no need for any agent to apply for Canada/Australia. All the relevant info is available on their websites. Anyone can do it with some research. Agents does not and cannot do anything more than what you can. There is a process in place and everyone has to go thru it. Agents do not have a special inside route to get you in. Please don't waste your hard earned money.
It's true that it's not mandatory to obtain migration advice and assistance. It's also true that much of the basic information is available online. Yet the fact remains that many applicants have their visa applications refused. Many others don't have a sound migration strategy and consequently their applications end up in limbo for several years before they get an outcome.

You see the information available on the websites is actually a very brief and summary of mammoth immigration legislation and policy which affects every single applicant. Registered migration agents are qualified and trained to navigate through and interpret the legislation, prepare a customized migration strategy as per the applicant's circumstances and and liaise with the immigration department on behalf of the aplicants.This is how a licensed and registered immigration consultant adds value.

However, this holds true only for consultants/lawyers registered with the MARA (Australia), AILA (USA) and ICCRC (Canada). Unfortunately, the immigration service industry in India is unregulated. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can set up shop claiming to be an immigration specialist. This leads to a lot of exploitation and fraud. This is also perhaps a reason why people percive consultants / agents as someone who has influence and can find you a short cut. This is completely false. No one can influence a visa officer or immigration department. However a qualified and experienced professional can certainly provide valuable legal advice, work in your best legal interests and support your migration application with their knowledge and experience of migration law and policy.

There is no compulsion to use an immigration consultant. However, if you are unsure about policy interpretations or have a complex case, it's a good idea to seek professional help. Just do your homework and ensure that the consultant you use is properly qualified and registered with the relevant authority. For more info you can refer to the following sites:

www.mara.gov.au

ICCRC - CRCIC

AILA - American Immigration Lawyers Association
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Old 28th August 2012, 17:21   #206
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Originally Posted by sunishsamuel
I am in that stage of life where there is a tug of war inside me, to decide whether to go to a foreign land or stay back in India. And the following makes me think more about the immigration/overseas opportunities.

I love India, for, this is the country where i was born, grew up using its resources (whatever limited it may be) and started a living. However, I have always been upset about the fact that:

- There is no cleanliness.
- No privacy (everyone wants to know what you doing, how much you earn, why not getting married and why you don't have kids, why did you buy the car instead of gold and what not !!!!)
- No respect for others; very evident when you are inside a bus, train or at hospital. Had more than enough bad experiences !
- No respect for rules while in India; we have been so used to breaking laws and rules, i think that's our birthright ! And after getting caught, starts the justification, ah ! That kills.
- Discrimination ? It's there at various levels, in schools, in college, at work, at public spaces and where not.
- Fleecing mentality; take anything, anywhere, people love fleecing and we are ok with that too ! (eg:- real estate, public services, hospital security guards, police and what not)

And the list goes on.

After having visited the United states (various states, multiple times) and knowing people from UK and Europe, i feel these countries atleast take care of the basic needs, which for Indians is a luxury viz., clean air, clean water, clean surroundings - and that's what we all need end of the day, isn't it ? There might be other grave issues that these countries face, no denying.

About freedom, family ties and others - The laws and fines might be really harsh there, but i think those are meant for those hard nuts who want to break the laws, not for you and me, the law abiding citizens.
And i keep hearing from NRI buddies and families about missing friends, family etc. I call that a farce ! When they were in India, it was tough for them to visit friends even for an hour, it was tough for them to visit parents and relatives when in need. And all these happened when they were a call away ! When they are abroad, they keep talking about the "missing" part. Can't believe them

I am at the risk of being called wrong here, but purely based on personal experience, sorry for the long posts and slight drift here. Further, its all about personal choice, whether to stay back or not ! There is good and bad about these decisions, and "grass is always greener at the other side"
I agree with you.if you're a rational thinker and think in global terms,then all the points above I.e. 'quality of life ' becomes more important than absolute 'Indianness' .

You'll not find India changing in the next 10 years, if want to earn enough for a comfortable life and enjoy life right now (not when you retire) emigration is good for you!

You'll have more time for yourself. And more resources to enjoy it.
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Old 28th August 2012, 17:38   #207
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Just like the saying goes "the grass always looks greener on the other side"!!! When I used to travel a lot I used to miss India, but that perception would be destroyed within a week of returning & vice versa when I used to go back overseas.
Overall, when I stepped back & thought about it, it seemed like a never ending loop. It's a very personal decision to immigrate overseas. You cannot compare one's circumstances to another person's for making the choice.
I personally would love to immigrate but again I would miss India terribly :o)
Bottom line is, there is no concrete or straightforward answer to a dilemma, I remember 2 quote's
1) A journey is a person in itself; no two are alike. And all plans, safeguards, policing, and coercion are fruitless. We find that after years of struggle that we do not take a trip; a trip takes us. - John Steinbeck
2) If you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans. - Woody Allen
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Old 29th August 2012, 03:14   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunishsamuel View Post
About freedom, family ties and others - The laws and fines might be really harsh there, but i think those are meant for those hard nuts who want to break the laws, not for you and me, the law abiding citizens.
And i keep hearing from NRI buddies and families about missing friends, family etc. I call that a farce ! When they were in India, it was tough for them to visit friends even for an hour, it was tough for them to visit parents and relatives when in need. And all these happened when they were a call away ! When they are abroad, they keep talking about the "missing" part. Can't believe them
Missing families & friends may not be as farcical as you think.

Consider this -> when most people staying abroad visit India it's their vacation period, usually 2-3 weeks at most for most employed people.

At the same time the people they're visiting in India are busy leading their lives (work, school, whatever it may be).

How does one expect anyone to go out of their way to stop what they're doing and make time for someone who's come to visit for a few days.

This works fine when one is a student but it's hard for people with families, and working people.

Also, Indian family and friend circles generally tend to be huge- it's not possible to get together with everyone in the same visit.
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Old 29th August 2012, 09:27   #209
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One small bit of advice. If you plan to emigrate do so before you are 35 (40 max). Only this way will you be able to build us your nest for retirement.
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Old 29th August 2012, 12:58   #210
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Originally Posted by Prawaal View Post
Adding my 2 cents based on my experiences in Canada. I have mostly stayed in Toronto downtown (Yonge and Wellsley). Also my experiences are based on staying with wife rather than staying like a bechelor.
Agreed that Canada is a beautiful place and most of us get facinated for cleaner surroundings and first world charm. However there were few cons which made me conclude that staying back in India is not too bad either..
1) The convenience and comfort, most of us are enjoying in India. It is very difficult to afford in Toronto. When I get up here in India, i have a cook coming over and cook breakfast/lunch for us. We have home help for cleaning, we have help for car wash and help to babysit our son. Had i to have the same in Canada, i would have to be a CEO of a company.
2) The racism here in India is very vocal and direct. However there it is more suttle and indirect. Somehoe that hurts me more.
3) For out kids to grow up, there cannot be a better place than India. If you feel that connection to Indian culture (read as respecting parents etc) is important, i dont think you would have the same if you bring up your kids in Canada. Most of my friends kids there hardly have any respect for India freedom fighters or the sacrifices they did to achieve independence.
4) A few of us create a small India there. We live in isolcated places and socialise only with fellow Indians, wear Indian clothes and do not adapt to Canadian culture. I somehow feel that this is also the best solution and if we finalize to move over to Canada, we should try being one of them than getting into a confused state. (Specially for our kids).

-Prawaal
As others have said, each persons outlook is different basis their own personal circumstances. However, if you look at these points objectively, this is my opinion -

1. Convinience and comfort of having servants is no doubt good to have but I view that the fact that you could not afford a servant in Canada as a way that teaches you how to survive on your own. IMHO an important lesson in life. To your later comment that doing it every day is a pain, I disagree. There can be two reasons for this
a. You do not like doing work
b. You consider these jobs below your dignity
(Please do nto answer these questions as I am not judging you or your viewpoint but stating what I think)

2. I agree that racism may be more subtle and may hurt more but I would prefer people to acknowledge me as a person rather than an Indian or Asian. This obviously takes time and requires you to prove yourself. However, any discrimination is downright wrong. At least the subtle ones I can choose to ignore and that I find goes a long way in people accepting you.

3. The question that I can never get people who harp on Indian culture is for them to give me a definition for it, i.e. for a kid, what should I do to 'comply' with Indian culture. Further, did you make an attempt to appreciate what is better in their way of living as compared to Indian 'culture'.
As for the specific things like respecting elders, if my child does not understand it, it is mor emy failure as a parent. Even in India, I cnnot guarantee that thay will do the same. Ultimately the child needs to learn on his own, by forcing it down their throat, they will grow up resenting it.

4. By restricting yourself to only Indian communities, you are actually helping with the racism as in point 2.
Its as simple that since you are an outsider, they (the current residents of the country) do not know you and are hence may view you with suspicion. By only socializing with Indians there, you are only fuelling their mistrust of you. One of the sides needs to make the first step, by isolating yourself, you are not doing any good.

Further, I think the best way is for people to be good human beings and this is what we need to teach our kids. Whether that comes from Indian or any other country's way of living is immaterial.
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