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Old 6th May 2010, 12:36   #76
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This lost "socially and emotionally" thing I do not understand. By that logic, all north Indians who do a job in South India are lost socially and emotionally, and vice a versa for south to north..
I think you missed the point. But yeah, if one is a workaholic or very ambitious then you can ignore these subtle aspects.
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Old 6th May 2010, 12:42   #77
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I think you missed the point. But yeah, if one is a workaholic or very ambitious then you can ignore these subtle aspects.
No I did not miss the point. All I said was that due to the diverse regions all over India, migrating from North to South and vice a versa is quite similar on the social front to migrating to a Phoren(foreign) land.
I have experienced this first hand
1. Total culture shock when I spent 4 years in Kerala
2. Similarly BLR, but the kerala experience hardened me quite a bit
3. From a social circle kind of point, I did not find the west daunting

However, from a lack of family point of view, America can be troublesome.
For example somebody having old parents in India. Unless parents move to USA(have seen this happening too for some of my friends), it does not make sense to stay out there with family.
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Old 6th May 2010, 12:56   #78
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For somebody who's lived in Punjab whole his life, Bangalore or Chennai or Hyderabad will be more alien than Vancouver.
for somebody from Ahemdabad, chennai would be more alien than California.
Bangalore and Chennai are still in your own country! In contrast, you'll be always an outsider in another country. Apart from cultural differences, some more things come into picture - to be blunt, skin color matters, we're 'brown'.

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1. Total culture shock when I spent 4 years in Kerala
Studies? work?

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Old 6th May 2010, 12:58   #79
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This lost "socially and emotionally" thing I do not understand. By that logic, all north Indians who do a job in South India are lost socially and emotionally, and vice a versa for south to north.
the language, culture, social norms, festivals etc., are totally different.
Isn't it better to be lost socially and emotionally in a country with roads and electricity, than be lost socially and emotionally in a place missing infrastructure also.
Given a choice between India and Abroad, the only which stops most people is Family. In India you can be with your family within 2-3 hours in the US, its a trans atlantic/pacific flight.
For somebody who's lived in Punjab whole his life, Bangalore or Chennai or Hyderabad will be more alien than Vancouver.
for somebody from Ahemdabad, chennai would be more alien than California.
So those of you who work far away from your native places, you are already living in a totally different social and cultural environment. I don't think that will be a "deciding factor" unless you have a huge local social circle and family locally.
You have a valid point concerning the socio-emotional perspective, but, do note that once you go to US /Canada you are an Asian while in TN you are still an Indian. I have personally experienced been sidelined on basis of Asian descent and hence groupism not racism is prevalent there. This was fine to an extent, but soon, I felt left out and restricted, socially. Being Indians, it is our nature to form a social circle, and I missed this aspect the most in USA. When I was in college, theoretically, the whole batch of my year was part of my social circle, and even now, being higher up, I still address drivers and subordinates by name. I know this may not apply to all of us, but, it applies to the most of us, even the recluse of the highest order in India will feel lonely there.

I am not negating your opinion, our experiences abroad may be different, but I just don't see 'Infrastructure' as a good enough reason to overshadow emotional and social well being.
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Old 6th May 2010, 13:23   #80
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Ahh the racism and brown angle.
But inter region racism does exist in India. There have been instances where "outsiders" have been beaten up in certain parts of the country. The perpetrators of the same still go scot free.

I know many people in the US and Canada who have been compensated finacially, with the wrong duer losing his job due to racism issues.
but I am yet to find a single person who got compensated because he was denied a promotion due to his region in India.

Regarding Brown-ness, well India is very diverse. People from different parts of India look completely different.

We have people from north east in Delhi, who have to go through racist comments, and social bias in Delhi due to perceived notions.
A person who speakes only hindi fluently will have a tough time in some cities.

Regarding group-ism its very prevalent in India too. Go to any REC and you will see groups forming on the basis of state. They socialize together, eat together, and god forbid, if your project mates all belong to a different group, they will start talking in their language and you will feel left out.

This is human nature, and if you do not have people from your language in the your circle, you will feel left out.

But then different strokes for different people. We cannot paint everybody with the same brush.
A Punjabi in Canada will never feel left out. Sights of fields with tractors being driven by Punjabis are common. But same cannot be said for a Tamil Nadu resident in Calgary. He will feel left out and suffocated.


In India, regional issues are very big, and there have been instances where in the same region buses from the "other" state have been burnt due to water issues and all.

As long as you look like the crowd you are very safe and comfortable in India, but if you don't then everything goes for a toss.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 6th May 2010 at 13:29.
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Old 6th May 2010, 13:33   #81
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Given a choice between India and Abroad, the only which stops most people is Family. In India you can be with your family within 2-3 hours in the US, its a trans atlantic/pacific flight.
Actually, the factor that you are only 2-3 hours away from your family is relevant only in emergency situations. Otherwise, trips to hometown are annual only, at best. Same is the case with people settled outside india as well. They also make annual trips to their hometowns.

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Bangalore and Chennai are still in your own country!
That does squat for me when i am labeled an outsider in my own country.
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Old 6th May 2010, 13:36   #82
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Being labelled an outsider abroad is more difficult to cope with then being branded an outsider in a different part of your own country. Personal Experience.
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Old 6th May 2010, 13:43   #83
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Actually, the factor that you are only 2-3 hours away from your family is relevant only in emergency situations. Otherwise, trips to hometown are annual only, at best. Same is the case with people settled outside india as well. They also make annual trips to their hometowns.
Well its true for people living far away from home. But if you were working in Delhi, would visit to hometown still be an annual affair. Even living far, your parents can come to visit you at minimal cost, and no visa etc., issues.


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That does squat for me when i am labeled an outsider in my own country.
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Being labelled an outsider abroad is more difficult to cope with then being branded an outsider in a different part of your own country. Personal Experience.
Again, your different strokes for different people. Your personal experience will be very different from the personal experience of a person from a different region.
for example, a TN resident is an outsider in Delhi, and so is a Mizoram resident. but the latter will suffer much more in Delhi as compared to former.
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Old 6th May 2010, 13:59   #84
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A person who speakes only hindi fluently will have a tough time in some cities.

Agreed, esp. in BLR & KL. Autos overcharge, conductors don't listen, even when I know Tamil, but this is much watered down than a racial slur.

Regarding group-ism its very prevalent in India too. Go to any REC and you will see groups forming on the basis of state. They socialize together, eat together, and god forbid, if your project mates all belong to a different group, they will start talking in their language and you will feel left out.

T
hey make groups in 1st semester or so, to get a false sense of security of being among their own mates, all this goes away at 3rd semester when they realize that the persons in their own group are none other than self important <censored>.

This is human nature, and if you do not have people from your language in the your circle, you will feel left out.

But then different strokes for different people. We cannot paint everybody with the same brush.
A Punjabi in Canada will never feel left out. Sights of fields with tractors being driven by Punjabis are common. But same cannot be said for a Tamil Nadu resident in Calgary. He will feel left out and suffocated.

Merely sights of Indians may not offer social security which I wish to have. I don't want to be known as a second class citizen by any American. They don't do it to naturalized Europeans, then why Asians.


In India, regional issues are very big, and there have been instances where in the same region buses from the "other" state have been burnt due to water issues and all.

My close friend's car had its tires slashed and glasses damaged in AUS, if that counts.

As long as you look like the crowd you are very safe and comfortable in India, but if you don't then everything goes for a toss.
Very true, esp. in case of North Eastern people(Meghalaya etc.).

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Being labelled an outsider abroad is more difficult to cope with then being branded an outsider in a different part of your own country. Personal Experience.
How so? I think the latter is more demeaning.
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Old 6th May 2010, 14:15   #85
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My close friend's car had its tires slashed and glasses damaged in AUS, if that counts.
During the Cauvery water dispute period between KA and TN, my KA registered car was stoned while on the highway, resulting in a cracked windshield. Point to note is, i belong to neither of the two states mentioned, and the only reason i had to drive down was owing to a family emergency as my mother was hospitalized.

So, are we any safer in our own country?

And yes, i totally agree with Tanveer's (tsk1979) point of view. My best friend who emigrated to Aus and lives in Brisbane has always made it a point to mingle with the local populace and not just restrict himself to the Indians around, and he clearly mentions that he has never been singled out for racial abuse or treatment. Its when we try to form microscopic communities, that we become the subject of racial discrimination.

P.S. : I have not lived/visited the countries in question, so my POVs are mainly limited to my friend's experiences.
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Old 6th May 2010, 14:24   #86
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For somebody who's lived in Punjab whole his life, Bangalore or Chennai or Hyderabad will be more alien than Vancouver.
for somebody from Ahemdabad, chennai would be more alien than California.
So those of you who work far away from your native places, you are already living in a totally different social and cultural environment.
I don't think it's entirely correct.

Maybe the food your neighbour cooks in his kitchen and the language he speaks at home is different,
but once you're on the street or at a mall or at office, you will see only similar individuals, with same set of "values", looks, habits, etc,etc
You will not feel like an alien as almost all Indians are exposed to the same
kind of movies, tv progs, cricket, lavish weddings, newspapers, stars, etc,etc
you can easily slip into their conversation and feel at home.
Team-Bhp is an example of this. and we don't discuss just about cars we talk a lot of other things too!!
the large IT companies which have employees from all over India
are another example.

In my experience the only time you feel out of water is when you have to deal with a daily wage labourer or roadside vendor who will not understand your language.

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During the Cauvery water dispute period between KA and TN, my KA registered car was stoned while on the highway, resulting in a cracked windshield. Point to note is, i belong to neither of the two states mentioned, and the only reason i had to drive down was owing to a family emergency as my mother was hospitalized.

So, are we any safer in our own country?
This situation is very rare and can be equated to a natural calamity like an earthquake.
This doesn't happen on a daily basis and cannot be considered an yardstick to
measure the safety aspect of living in your own country.

the actual safety we all talk about is only an imaginary thing.
even if you're protected under Z+ category at the end of the day it's not fool-proof,
but the imaginary sense of security you get is priceless even if not true entirely..
It is similar to the peace of mind millions of people get by buying a Maruti

Last edited by Daewood : 6th May 2010 at 14:41.
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Old 6th May 2010, 15:30   #87
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Ahh the racism and brown angle.
But inter region racism does exist in India. There have been instances where "outsiders" have been beaten up in certain parts of the country. The perpetrators of the same still go scot free.
Such incidents make news, doesn' mean they are all that often. If 10,000 people have been beaten up out of 1,000,000,000, the crude probability is around 0.001% !!
On the contrary, Jews, Parsees and a lot of minorities have lived, without discrimination, in India without any fear or discrimination.

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I know many people in the US and Canada who have been compensated finacially, with the wrong duer losing his job due to racism issues.
Yeah. The fact is that there are less than 5 companies outside of the US and UK that have an Indian CEO. I can't even think of ONE!
Also, the fact that people have been compensated abroad means that discrimination exists. Second, discrimination is not limited to harassment. There is something called the glass ceiling.

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but I am yet to find a single person who got compensated because he was denied a promotion due to his region in India.
Because in professional setups in India, regional discriminations don't happen. There are people from every community, holding very high posts in India.
The first prime minister of the country was an atheist. It is still, virtually impossible, for an American president to be anything other than Christian. Similarly, bilogy teachers, and researchers who teach, and endorse, evolution have been institutionally discriminated against in the US.

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Regarding Brown-ness, well India is very diverse. People from different parts of India look completely different.

We have people from north east in Delhi, who have to go through racist comments, and social bias in Delhi due to perceived notions.
A person who speakes only hindi fluently will have a tough time in some cities.
And that doesn't happen outside India? Blacks in the US, all minorities in the UK, Surinamies and other former slaves in Europe....
I can go on forever.
I went to a pub in Stuttgart with a couple of white friends in 2007. The very next day, I went with an indian couple and we were not allowed inside. There was absolutely no issues with our attire. The bouncer just kept saying "you can't go in", while white blokes were freely let in.
That is racism. Calling someone white or brown or desi or madrasi or chinki or bangaali or nigger or whatever is racism as well, but is not very detrimental provided the victim is tolerant enough.
As I said, a person from the North East can still become the CEO of a big company in India. Something that can never happen in France or Canada or Australia.
Some people want to live with self-respect, not better roads.

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Regarding group-ism its very prevalent in India too. Go to any REC and you will see groups forming on the basis of state. They socialize together, eat together, and god forbid, if your project mates all belong to a different group, they will start talking in their language and you will feel left out.
Stop cribbing. It is natural for people to talk in their own languages. Just ask them to use english, and they always do. Better still, if, say, as an Oriya, you are in Bangalore, it is good to learn some Kannada.
The entire issue with half the people claiming 'there is regionalism' in India is that they are willing to genuflect to a foreign culture, but more than willing to denigrate another culture within India.
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Old 6th May 2010, 15:42   #88
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It's when we try to form microscopic communities, that we become the subject of racial discrimination.
This is ridiculous. People form microscopic communities because 9 out of 10 times it is difficult to be in a 'white' social circle. Westernized Indians; ie indians who have no cultural semblance with indians anymore, mix with Indians as well.
The fact is that even if you live in a white suburb, you would primarily hang out with Indians, and have mostly Indian friends. The same is true if you are Chinese, or Mexican or some other minority.
My 15 yr old niece is born and raised in Canberra. Has no indianness in her, has an aussie accent, speaks 5 words each of Bengali and Hindi, was educated their, likes Aussie food.....but guess what? Most of her friends are indians, sri lankans, indigenous australians, Chinese and a few whites.
Minorities live in ghettos worldwide. Some people do not wish to live in Ghettos, and some are up for it. If living in a ghetto or quasi-ghetto doesn't bother you, the west is awesome. If it does bother you, then mera bharat mahan.
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Old 6th May 2010, 15:48   #89
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As I said, a person from the North East can still become the CEO of a big company in India. Something that can never happen in France or Canada or Australia.
Some people want to live with self-respect, not better roads.


I still remember the statement by the french CEO when Mittal's proposal for buying Arcelor steel came up.
He said " we make parfum and they make Eau de Cologne"
That was racism at the very top level.

But eventually he had to make way for Mittal due to shareholders pressure.

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People form microscopic communities because 9 out of 10 times it is difficult to be in a 'white' social circle.
It is because of the same habit of we not accepting the sublte offers of freindship from our less fortunate neighbours like maids, drivers, etc
But if we want to make friendship with them they will readily accept us.

That is the reason why expatriates in India make lots of Indian friends, wheras Indians going abroad are not able to.

Last edited by Daewood : 6th May 2010 at 16:07.
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Old 6th May 2010, 16:26   #90
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My 15 yr old niece is born and raised in Canberra. Has no indianness in her, has an aussie accent, speaks 5 words each of Bengali and Hindi, was educated their, likes Aussie food.....but guess what? Most of her friends are indians, sri lankans, indigenous australians, Chinese and a few whites.
Minorities live in ghettos worldwide.
True.

Reminds me of Russel Peter's stand up show in which he talks about how his dad - who had immigrated to Canada - used to beat him up when he makes a mischief, in spite of laws existing in that country against it. He really brings out the difference between what happens in a Canadian family and an Indian family settled there. He also says he used to hang out with Indians, Sri-Lankans etc, and it is a very rare scenario that a white kid joins their group.

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