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Old 1st June 2016, 21:00   #1006
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Default Re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land! Worth it?

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
Samurai, who's probably parenting a teenager has nailed the cultural aspect. I can't top it.
Yup, I do have a teenage son who was born in USA, now taller than me.

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On your free time, try reading through R2I diaries section in R2IClubforums. Gives lot of first hand experiences from people who have gone through R2I or R2A.
Funny you should mention it. I was a regular part of this R2I forum between 2001-2007.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 01:49   #1007
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I do believe that Indian kids can learn a lot from German culture as well.
True, I've also learnt good things here. But 1 thing I've noticed here, be it kids or adults, they are too finicky , don't know if I'm exaggerating. My roommates in a flatshare used to complain that they don't like to hear noise from buses and trams plying across the street, I never even noticed. I find people here restless and getting annoyed pretty fast when they are put in an unknown situation. Probably because we come from a background where hardships are a part of our life, we find everything here a luxury (I atleast), people here on the other hand, I see them complaining for things which might be too trivial for us, may be it is more of the German thing.

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Its OT but could not help commenting since the thought appears opportunistic. You do not want your kids to grow up in an environment which has rewarded you professionally yet you want them to come back after they are hopefully 'immune' to what could only be concluded as undesirable effects of an alien culture. Don't know what to say
Excuse me, why should one not be opportunistic ? The environment here has rewarded me professionally not because I took a flight to Germany, but because I've worked hard for it. My grandpa was a fisherman, I'm the first person in my family whose passport got a VISA stamped on it. If I had not been opportunistic, I would have also been doing a routine job back there. And like all parents, I'm thinking for the betterment of my kids. Its a different matter I've no kids now, heck I've not found a girl either

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For example, if you don't want your daughters to date, it is too late. Daughters of my peers are already dating, often with parental consent. Divorce rate has skyrocketed, young couples no more compromise and suffer like in the old days.
Indian culture is no reason to come back. Come back to India if you want to live in India, and close to aging parents, etc.
Samurai, you know quite well what I'm thinking and you are right. But the fact is, here things are extreme as far as relationships goes. People get married only because they get a greater tax rebate and allowance for kids, or else people here prefer live in relationships which often doesn't last. For e.g. I know someone who has 3 kids from 3 guys, was not married to anyone and is single. Every other evening she has "guests" at her place. And this is not an exception, this mentality is quite common here, which I personally do not like. I don't mind if my daughter dates someone, but I won't like it if she dates a new guy every 3 months.. Do you understand what I'm referring to ? These are some of the few things which keeps on bugging me.

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One thing which I noticed with German companies is the subtle racism. I might be wrong here, but I don't find many immigrants on the top ranks. Even in the US branches of German companies, most of the higherups are Germans.

So, I don't know. Just my thoughts. Correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
I would not blame the Germans for this. For getting into higher ranks in German companies, one needs to speak German fluently. I've Indian colleagues who work with me, they can speak broken German but they do not take the effort to talk with their German colleagues in German. There are a few I've seen in the higher ranks, all of them speak good German. Is there anything else you noticed apart from this ?

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On your free time, try reading through R2I diaries section in R2IClubforums. Gives lot of first hand experiences from people who have gone through R2I or R2A.

Good luck with your life decisions
Thank you Narayan for the detailed reply, your points are spot on. I don't know if I'm counting my chickens before they hatch, but this decision is not going to be easy for me. If I happen to be around Modena, I will just drop by to say hello to you. Was last summer in Italy for camping.

Cheers
Spike
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Old 2nd June 2016, 02:54   #1008
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True, I've also learnt good things here. But 1 thing I've noticed here, be it kids or adults, they are too finicky , don't know if I'm exaggerating.
I experienced it first hand when I visited Leipzig in 2014. My roommate was from Berlin, he was always complaining about one thing or the other. What we think is luxury in India, seems to be mandatory for them. We are more adaptable to any situation. They are more rigid. The only time they laugh is when they have their beer and even then they are very particular about their drink.
All the best for your future endeavours.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 03:03   #1009
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One thing which I noticed with German companies is the subtle racism.


This subtle racism is in India as well, based on religion, caste, language etc. The company which I worked for before in Chennai had the top management mainly from a particular Hindu caste.

But anyway, I have also heard the same about the German companies.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 04:41   #1010
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Default Re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land! Worth it?

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Is there anything else you noticed apart from this ?


Here is my comparison list. I've predominantly compared Detroit vs Frankfurt/Stuttgart.

Work culture

Germany has a much better work life balance. there is a lot of pressure in the US companies.

Vacation package -

you get almost a month and half in vacations in germany.. US starts with 2 weeks and 4 weeks comes after ~15 -20 years of service.

Maternity/Paternity

1 year in Germany . US you might get 2 months

Pay

US companies are much better. Pay is upto 25% higher.

Home ownership.

US much cheaper to buy/maintain houses

Car ownership.

Much cheaper to buy/maintain cars in US. But no autobahns.

Children growing up.

Detroit schools are more used to seeing Indian students. Lots of indian associations and events. I would think there might be more chances of not fitting in schools in Germany.

... I might have strayed from the topic, but hope this helps - or correct me if I made some wrong assumptions.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 04:47   #1011
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
But the fact is, here things are extreme as far as relationships goes. People get married only because they get a greater tax rebate and allowance for kids, or else people here prefer live in relationships which often doesn't last. For e.g. I know someone who has 3 kids from 3 guys, was not married to anyone and is single. Every other evening she has "guests" at her place. And this is not an exception, this mentality is quite common here, which I personally do not like. I don't mind if my daughter dates someone, but I won't like it if she dates a new guy every 3 months.. Do you understand what I'm referring to ? These are some of the few things which keeps on bugging me.
Have an uncle who married a German lady, took German citizenship and has been living in Germany for quite sometime. His daughter has a kid from a live-in relationship that didn't last and is now living-in with another person. Needless to add, I don't think my uncle is excited about this state of affairs.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 05:15   #1012
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Default Re: Emigrating to a Foreign Land! Worth it?

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
True, I've also learnt good things here. But 1 thing I've noticed here, be it kids or adults, they are too finicky , don't know if I'm exaggerating. My roommates in a flatshare used to complain that they don't like to hear noise from buses and trams plying across the street, I never even noticed. I find people here restless and getting annoyed pretty fast when they are put in an unknown situation.
You don't know how many Indians are like that. We have another Indian in the same flat. One day she runs into my wife, she complains that my toddler son keeps crying Oh well! Funny thing is there are 4 other Italian tenants in the same flat and none complain. Our house owner is shocked somebody even complains about 1 year olds crying.

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
These are some of the few things which keeps on bugging me.
Live in relationships very much exist among Indians and some in India itself. Its been around for more than a decade

And situations like you mentioned don't happen overnight. There are definitely signs at young age and as they happen. From a young age regardless whether what they did right or wrong, its good to have kids be forthright with their problems. That saves lot of trouble later on.

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Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
Detroit schools are more used to seeing Indian students. Lots of indian associations and events. I would think there might be more chances of not fitting in schools in Germany.
Don't worry about kids, they'll integrate themselves in way faster than us. The younger they are, the more easier it is. This am talking with local language public schools in mind.

Leaving aside the pros and cons. There are 2 key things to consider. Why do you want to move across the pond? Where do you want to be 5-10 years down the road? And as Spike says, language is a critical factor. You wouldn't have had that trouble moving from India to US. But it is a huge factor moving into an European country.

Last edited by narayans80 : 2nd June 2016 at 05:17.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 15:12   #1013
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Originally Posted by BenHarPree View Post
They are more rigid. The only time they laugh is when they have their beer and even then they are very particular about their drink.
All the best for your future endeavours.
True, thanks !

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Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
Here is my comparison list. I've predominantly compared Detroit vs Frankfurt/Stuttgart.
Automobile Industry in Germany >> Stuttgart. Yes there are companies around Frankfurt as well , but most things revolve around Stuttgart.

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Work culture

Germany has a much better work life balance. there is a lot of pressure in the US companies.
True

Quote:
Vacation package -

you get almost a month and half in vacations in germany.. US starts with 2 weeks and 4 weeks comes after ~15 -20 years of service.
30 days holidays is standard, then sick leave and other usual leaves plus.

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Maternity/Paternity

1 year in Germany . US you might get 2 months
Usually yes. Depends also on your partner if she is working and how much maternity leave she has taken or wants to take.

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Pay

US companies are much better. Pay is upto 25% higher.
Don't know about pay there in USA. My CTC back home some years back is my monthly salary now in Germany, so I'm happy and not complaining and it is good enough to live a content life here with savings (depends on your partner though) .

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Home ownership.

US much cheaper to buy/maintain houses
True.

Quote:
Car ownership.

Much cheaper to buy/maintain cars in US. But no autobahns.
Cheaper to buy but not to maintain. E.g. BMW 5 series 100000 Km run, 7 year old, single owner costs approx 4.5L.

Quote:
Children growing up.

Detroit schools are more used to seeing Indian students. Lots of indian associations and events. I would think there might be more chances of not fitting in schools in Germany.
Public schools where everything is taught in German are cheaper than International schools, but still no way cheap when compared to Indian prices.



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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Have an uncle who married a German lady, took German citizenship and has been living in Germany for quite sometime. His daughter has a kid from a live-in relationship that didn't last and is now living-in with another person. Needless to add, I don't think my uncle is excited about this state of affairs.
I do understand, I've seen very few happy German families to be honest, most of them are complaining something or the other. The only things that they don't seem to be complaining often are cars and jobs and beers.

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
Funny thing is there are 4 other Italian tenants in the same flat and none complain. Our house owner is shocked somebody even complains about 1 year olds crying.
I find Italians are generally more relaxed, they are not too particular about overtaking from right, honking generously etc.

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 3rd June 2016 at 15:15.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 15:28   #1014
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Live-in, kids out of wedlock are concerns. But what can we do about it ? Things have changed a lot in india, i have 6-8 year old girls around me talking about boy friends and love etc.

I'd guide/have a conversation with my children, very openly about controlling emotions, being safe while in a relationship etc. I'd pray for them and hope they take care of themselves. What else can we do ? That's the same logic that i'd apply wherever i live/will live. For that fact, in india, when i grew up in the 80's and 90's i did come across families whose kids were facing teenage pregnancy, multiple affairs. Things were hushed up but that does not happen anymore is the only difference !
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Old 3rd June 2016, 18:32   #1015
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Been to a few places (US, UK & Luxembourg), albeit short trips of couple of months in each country. But I do communicate a lot with foreigners. British, Americans, Polish, Greeks, Germans, Dutch - I communicate with them day in and day out, and because I am around in the same organisation for some 7 years, we do not always talk work, but there is also a friendly touch.

Over the years, what I have understood as the difference in culture is the inability of us Indians to talk what we feel and be forth coming with what we want to say. We just done open up, whereas the same Indian kid, if grown up in Europe or US, is more forthcoming and will speak of what he/she feels.
This openness is what takes us Indians by surprise and this openness is what Indians are afraid of. Most of us just cant deal with that.

If a teenager in Europe wants to date someone, he/she will be able to talk quite openly about it with their parents, and this is what the parents are afraid of.
It is not that the teenagers grown up in India do not feel like dating someone, but they are tight lipped about it and that keeps both parties happy.

Last edited by vinit.merchant : 3rd June 2016 at 18:38.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 19:39   #1016
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A lot of the cultural unease is also a subconscious 'I'll see/believe what I want to see/believe' mindset at play. A lot of stuff we think are 'issues' with another culture aren't very different with 'our culture' too, if we are willing to take a honest look beneath the 'it's all hunky-dory here' pretensions. Culture is not a fixed idea, the goalposts are forever in motion.

A value system ultimately is a very individual thing, and nobody can be taught beyond a point. I've grown up inheriting a lot of traits from my parents and family, but am I the same as them? Not even close, there's plenty of situations where my thought process is diametrically opposite theirs, and we just agree to disagree.

Our attitudes aren't replicas of our forebears, our children's won't be of ours. We can try to give them a solid moral/ethical foundation, then let them find their own way. That's the only way it really works.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 20:35   #1017
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Public schools where everything is taught in German are cheaper than International schools, but still no way cheap when compared to Indian prices.

Hmm.. Interesting. In the US schooling is free till high school.(+2 in India). There are private schools - which are expensive, but some detroit suburban public schools are really the best in the nation. Almost everybody in the middle class uses public schools.

The downside of the free public school craze is , houses are priced crazy high in good school districts.

How much is average school expenses in Germany??


Regarding CTC's, I used to worry how I would afford a flat in Bangalore with the measely Automobile salary. Now happy. But the significant other thinks she deserves a Louis Vuitton purse!! The cash crunch continues!!!....

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Old 3rd June 2016, 20:46   #1018
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Yup, I do have a teenage son who was born in USA, now taller than me.
I think statistically each generation is a bit taller than their parents. I am about 2" taller than my late father, and ditto for our son, 2+" above me.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 22:22   #1019
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Live-in, kids out of wedlock are concerns. But what can we do about it ? Things have changed a lot in india, i have 6-8 year old girls around me talking about boy friends and love etc.
I have a couple grownup kids (boy/teenager & a girl)in my household who were born and brought up in Southern Calif. In my observation, the more parents stress about staying away from such relationships, the more they get curious about it. Getting them to be passionate about other things like sports, basketball, tennis etc, or time consuming activities with big rewards such as music that leads to a school band or orchestra, or crazy things like dirt bikes and cars - may end up working much better. Any/all of such activities will keep them focused on it - like getting into that school band, or getting selected to an elite sports team. These activities do cost a lot of money, parents would have to suck it up and pay for it when the child shows interest and promise in it. Else, the idle curious mind will find random things to do that may prove to be harmful in the long run. IMHO, this would apply to raising teenagers anywhere in the world.

Last edited by prasadee : 3rd June 2016 at 22:26.
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Old 5th June 2016, 03:19   #1020
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Hmm.. Interesting. In the US schooling is free till high school.(+2 in India). There are private schools - which are expensive, but some detroit suburban public schools are really the best in the nation. Almost everybody in the middle class uses public schools.

How much is average school expenses in Germany??
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Public schools where everything is taught in German are cheaper than International schools, but still no way cheap when compared to Indian prices.
Like in US, you don't spend a dime on public schools for the education. Food, transportation are charged. Transportation can also be subsidised depending on which range your family income falls under. Only nursery for 3 months-2 years in 'expensive', the subsidy based on income applies to this as well. This is the case in Italy. Should be the same in other EU countries as well. Ballpark figure is about 100 a month per kid. This is based on a small town, should slightly vary for cities.

Even university education isn't that expensive as it is across the pond.

In my experience, education costs in India are the only growing without any control.
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