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Old 7th May 2010, 13:03   #121
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Originally Posted by Ace F355 View Post
lol, this thread is becoming place to bash racism instead of giving some insights to saildrive about Canada.

I myself had a really bad experience in Karnataka during my 2003 trip when locals almost had me. (Skin tone and language seemed to be my biggest enemy at that time)

1.)Were you fair skinned & spoke Hindi?

4 and half years, 5 countries and 14 different cities, I am yet to see some racism against myself in the West. However, what hurts most is, observing that even in a foreign land, people from India remain North Indians and South Indians and they never mingle with each other.

If you are 1.) then your western experience will be very different than mine.


When racial discrimination issue in Australia came up last year, whole country went nuts about it. But if a group of Bihari people is beaten in Delhi, nobody gives a s**t. (No offense to people from Bihar)

.

Does anybody know WHY race attacks happened in AUS, or WHY specific regional people are the object of people's ire in Delhi?

The answer, according to an AUSsie is that, we were using THEIR resources, taking up THEIR jobs, crowding THEIR public transport, coming to THEIR city with our boorish behavior.

Think with an open mind, if the Chinese/ some other country do the same to us, how will we feel. How will we digest the fact that a foreigner, a complete stranger competes for a job/college against you. This is how they feel, and this is how Delhiites feel for regional competition, We Delhiites consider Delhi to be a separate country and such incidents do happen. Though some of it has been replicated in our very own Mumbai & BLR from time to time.

Though, selective promotion of workers in an organization is something beyond me, this is unacceptable in an Indian employment and, I have never heard of it, sincerely, in the years of my employment.


North Indians getting trouble in South?

I had an ancestral house in Bangalore. A relative built 50 small apartments in a 4 storey complex, with all amenities(24hr water,parking etc.), for rental purposes. Now, a group of 50*3 people (Male & female) from different IT companies, from different parts of north India came to reside there. Less than 8 months later, he had to vacate the property using Judicial means. He said that the tenants often misbehaved with people on the street, brought prostitutes and alcohol & consumed it in full public view. The girls used to sleep around and there used to be street fights & quarrels regularly, they even stopped paying rent after 3 months. If that was not enough, a resident filed a case and we all had to give Rs.8 lac as collective compensation to the residents of the locality or risk our land getting seized.

Now, tell me, isn't the above detrimental to Bengaluru's culture?

If you consider this as a one off incident, try looking for a rented accommodation in BLR mentioning you 'are an IT guy' in Hindi, most of them would shut the door in your face or will charge super normal rent or will take a humongous sum as security.

A region is only what its denizens make of it, If someone from North India indulges in misdemeanor in South India, he creates a blot on the image of his own region. Similarly, if India is known for display of boorish behavior to citizens of AUS/USA, then ,it is natural for them to think that all Indians are the same
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Old 7th May 2010, 13:25   #122
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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
Think with an open mind, if the Chinese/ some other country do the same to us, how will we feel.
I will feel I need to get better.

Quote:
How will we digest the fact that a foreigner, a complete stranger competes for a job/college against you.
I will feel challenged. I will strive to get better.

Quote:
This is how they feel, and this is how Delhiites feel for regional competition, We Delhiites consider Delhi to be a separate country and such incidents do happen. Though some of it has been replicated in our very own Mumbai & BLR from time to time.
You should speak for yourself. My wife is from Delhi and she has no such notions about the people from the state you speak from. What does get the goat of the Delhiites is the one northern state that was a militancy hub early and they had to feel the burnt of it. These are only the old people the newer generation does not bother.

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Now, a group of 50*3 people (Male & female) from different IT companies, from different parts of north India came to reside there.
LOL, 150 people of the same kind staying in the same colony doing the same bad things. What have you taken north indians for man?

And talking about the relative building 50 odd rooms. Didnt he see this coming? Why didnt he get only south indians to stay. I think the greed shown by residents of this city to extract how much ever miney they can from outsiders has put you into the rut.

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He said that the tenants often misbehaved with people on the street, brought prostitutes and alcohol & consumed it in full public view. The girls used to sleep around and there used to be street fights & quarrels regularly, they even stopped paying rent after 3 months.
This is unbelievable. 150 odd IT folks each one of them from North behaving in such a manner? I think this is far fetched. I have stayed for 4 years in this city on rent as a Bachelor. Branding North Indians in such a way is totally uncalled for.

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Now, tell me, isn't the above detrimental to Bengaluru's culture?
What is Bangalores culture? Can you elaborate? Everything closes at 11:30, no freedom whatsoever. What are we in a Talibanised land?

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If you consider this as a one off incident, try looking for a rented accommodation in BLR mentioning you 'are an IT guy' in Hindi, most of them would shut the door in your face or will charge super normal rent or will take a humongous sum as security.
And they give the same houses to South Indians for cheap? I have stayed in 3 different houses while saying I am IT guy and talking Hindi. There is only one thing that counts here saar. MONEY. Whoever gives more will get the house and not because you are from malleshwaram.

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A region is only what its denizens make of it, If someone from North India indulges in misdemeanor in South India, he creates a blot on the image of his own region.
The tone of your post seems the bad that happens in bangalore is only due to North Indians or outsiders. Open your eyes and have a good look.

Do you see the corruption in your city which is of the highest level and then judge the situation?

PS: I am from Goa - Its not in the North

Also please avoid such off topic issues here. Read the topic heading, understand and reply.

Last edited by Spitfire : 7th May 2010 at 13:34.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:16   #123
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Off Topic: Well I do not wish to categories anything. I am an Indian first and then a Marathi but then even we (My colony) had real bad experience with north Indian people. The bachelors staying in the apartment stole a car for night and then girls used to smoke openly sitting in the colony garden. Within a month the owner had to let them go. Interestingly all these guys were north indians. Few biharis and few Delhi-UP side. One of a case I guess.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:29   #124
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Have been a northie (actually, grew up in the east) in Bangalore for over 14 years now. Sure there are idiots everywhere (and from everywhere), but by and large, I have gotten along famously not only with Bangaloreans (consider myself one, now) but with folks from Andhra, and Kerala, and TN, and Orissa, and the NE and even Nepal - all of whom have made this their home.

Not only that, we've now setup a home in Coorg and tho I'm only haltingly learning the language, I have friends amongst the really friendly folks around there.

Me, and a bunch of "old time" northies in Bangalore even have an expression framed in jest - "BNI" or b***dy north Indians - that we ourselves are. These is purely in jest - partly as a joke about the discomfort-in-a-new-place of the fresh-off-the-flights/trains, and partly as banter about the reaction of the few rigid old timers. The city is amazingly friendly compared to most, the coffee good and the weather awesome!

The problem usually lies behind our eyes, and between the ears. Not elsewhere. We see, hear and believe what we want to. If you want to give in to racial/ethic stereotypes based on a few anecdotes, and without rationalizing someone else's behaviour, you will! Delhi is aggressive and effective, Mumbai too busy and efficient, Calcutta poetic and political, Bangalore laidback and friendly - all for very good reasons that are a joy to understand unless you get clobbered by the blinds of regional/ethnic pride/mistrust even before you start on that journey. If you do, all I can say is, poor you.

Last edited by zenx : 7th May 2010 at 14:34.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:34   #125
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Originally Posted by JustCause View Post
Does anybody know WHY race attacks happened in AUS, or WHY specific regional people are the object of people's ire in Delhi?

The answer, according to an AUSsie is that, we were using THEIR resources, taking up THEIR jobs, crowding THEIR public transport, coming to THEIR city with our boorish behavior.
Dude you were doing well till this post of yours.
Anyway, i wont comment on the Ban-galore culture since it is off topic.

The reason for Aussie attacks (which the media, in particular one channel) were quick to label racism was as follow:
1. Less educated youths from backward areas of some states were lured by agents promising a good education and better life in Australia
2. When these folks land there, they realized that the "educational institute" is nothing but a shoddy thing that will hardly give them any education and on top of it, they have no money with them to survive.
3. So, they start doing part time jobs. Of course they are not legally allowed to work because the govt thinks that the proof of funds these people had shown were authentic.
4. These people dont get paid by cheques or electronic transfers because their employers know they cant legally employ them. But they are working at 1/4th the normal regulated rate!!
5. So, the out of work and out of money natives find themselves easy targets on pay days when these immigrated folks are returning to their cheap homes in remote parts.

Racism had nothing to do with it. It was a law and order problem.

Why people from other countries were not attacked? Because they were not shown pipe dreams and most of them knew what they were getting into and most likely had the funds to support them.

Anyway, I narrated this whole story because people are getting wrong ideas about living in Australia.

Slightly OT but the language based riots that happened years ago also had economic reasons. The center had decided to conduct exams in hindi only which would have left majority of people from southern parts clueless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoonwheels View Post
girls used to smoke openly sitting in the colony garden.
It would have been ok if the guys were smoking in the colony gardens?

Last edited by amitoj : 7th May 2010 at 14:37.
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:34   #126
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post

You should speak for yourself. My wife is from Delhi and she has no such notions about the people from the state you speak from. What does get the goat of the Delhiites is the one northern state that was a militancy hub early and they had to feel the burnt of it. These are only the old people the newer generation does not bother.


......

Also please avoid such off topic issues here. Read the topic heading, understand and reply.
The whole point of my post is you are what people of your region project you to.Don't go into the nitty gritties of my post, I wrote it as my experience in life, whatever happened has happened. Compensation given and case closed.

I wrote all this only because I was asked a clarification regarding the regionalism, otherwise I have mentioned my views in my first two posts.

No offence to any state/country intended, just my contribution to a discussion.

Amitoj, I really think I jumped the gun there quoting a hot blooded Aussie in exact statement(Delhi heat taking its toll?), Sorry. Please don't feel offended anyone.These are my own personal views and I am not applying it to anyone or at large.

The cops asked my colleague not to press charges on 20+year old Aussie Kids.

Last edited by JustCause : 7th May 2010 at 14:54.
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Old 7th May 2010, 16:57   #127
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What kind of utopia you are living in. Ever heard of glass ceiling. Just the way you say there is a glass ceiling which will prevent an Indian from becoming the CEO of American MNC. there are lots of Indian companies where people from a certain region at mostly at the top.
(1) I never said that there is a glass ceiling in the US. In EU, Aus, Canada, yes there is one.
(2) So there is a glass ceiling in Indian companies which prevents indians from climbing the ladder? Do you even know what a glass ceiling is?



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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Discrimination exists everywhere in the world, you are trying to paint some kind of picture that its much more in the west, than in the east.
Yes, but as an Indian I do not get discriminated against in India. In the west I do. So for me it is a concern. If one enjoys being a majority here, why would he not complain living as a minority elsewhere?



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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So maybe your kind are in majority in the IT industry in India. For you definitely its better here. But for somebody who is in minority, things may be different.
I am not in IT. Nevertheless.....

As far as minority rights in India is concerned, it is better than most countries. US, UK win because of better law enforcement.
(1) Aus identified the indigenous as a part of their flora and fauna till 1960s.
(2) The less said about the islamic countries, the better.
(3) Canada; people have already spoken enough about.
(4) EU (outside UK) : Watch a bit of football and you'll know what actual racism is.

India is a very left leaning country, and social problems are highlighted, and often exaggerated.
(1) Jews have lived here without any discrimination for centuries.
(2) Same is true for Parsees.
(3) The 150 mill. muslims are better off here than they would have been, not only in other Talibanized countries, but even in the West where they are profiled as plausible suspects.
(4) Yes, there have been aberrations, but from a statistical point of view, if you take into account the size of the country, they are minor issues really.
(5) I do see a lot of rants about the Caste system. The Caste system exists only among very orthodox families in the cities of India. There are, today, way too many intercaste marriages in Urban Indian. It is still a big problem in remote villages. But we aren't talking of remote villagers here, are we?


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
There are lots of Ghettos in India too. Just like anywhere in the world. And having spent extensive time in California, I mostly stayed in apartment complexes which had a head healthy mix of Asian/South Asian/Afro/White etc., Do not paint abroad with the same picture. Its not some one entity. Just like in India, the midwest is totally different from cities like SFO and Vancouver..
I live in an apartment complex, and I can easily think of 25-30 different communities living here.
The fact is most people, on this board at least , are not living in ghettos. And they do run the risk of being ghetto-ized abroad.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
You are contradicting yourself. You say 70% managers are regionalistic and its not a problem? And things balance out?
Well things may balance out for a region where the representation is high.

Its very easy to be part of the majority and pretend there is no racism
(1) I never said 70% of managers being regionalistic is an unequivocal fact, and can be factually verified.
I said, if I assume that, in the worst case, 70 out of 100 managers have a regional bias, that would still ensure enough entropy in the system to make the system, as a whole, lack any bias.
If there are 10 managers, and 7 communities in a country. If 7 support 1 community each, and the remaining 3 are fair, the net resultant vector should also be unbiased.
In reality of course, the proportion of biased managers would be far less, and thus easily neutralize any resultant bias in the system/instution.
It is simple math.
I am not contradicting myself, you fail at comprehension.

(2) A vast majority of people, who are capable of moving abroad as skilled labour, also belong to the majority. And as you conceded, that majorities do not get discriminated against in India, and there is a possibility of them being discriminated against in the west, isn't it a plus for them to stay back?



Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
For example if 20% of all engineers belong to region X.
What about region Y which contributes to maybe just 0.01% of the managers.
Lets say out of 1000 managers in 10 companies a total of 2 managers belong to region Y.
Where you do you think that person goes?
That person can still go to an unbiased manager. I did assume that there are at least 30% unbiased managers....at least!!!
If I assume that dogma is usually normally distributed, just like most traits (which is a fair assumption). Even if I assume that only 1 standard dev of people are unbiased, that would still mean 68% unbiased managers.


Your entire point is that minorities are discriminated against in India. My point is that minorities are discriminated against EVERY PLACE ELSE in the world (exceptions being truly cosmopolitan cities like NYC, London etc)
Thus, from a pure utilitarian point of view, if one belongs to a majority here, and is earning well he should consider discrimination when he moves abroad!
Your argument seems to be: A belongs to a majority in India. He will be a minority abroad, and can be possible discriminated against. But minorities are discrim. against in India as well. So A will be fine in the west.
The flaw here, of course, is that A does not belong to any minority in India.
.

Last edited by e1t1bet : 7th May 2010 at 16:59.
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Old 7th May 2010, 17:26   #128
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Looking at the way this thread is progressing I think we should change the thread title to 'Racism : Is it worth it ?'

poor @saildrive

On a serious note, guys, lets please restrict the posting in alignment to the title . Really looking forward to opinions on the actual subject !!!
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Old 7th May 2010, 17:40   #129
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I guess the number and temperature of comments will have shut the OP so tight that he will have vowed never to raise this kind of question here again.
This is not East Vs West debate as most people are trying to argue out.

Moving to another country is purely for economic reasons for most people and all the preceding pages of arguments need to go down the drain
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Old 7th May 2010, 17:46   #130
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I find this thread interesting----but the recent posts seem to be straying from the central theme of the thread starter.

I myself contemplated shifting to the US a decade ago, when as many as 500 employees from my company moved there during the IBM and ERP boom. Somehow fate had other things in store for me, and the market also crashed due to Y2K.

Despite the frustration, my presence in India paid off to me because I could spend a longer time with my dad , who passed away in a couple of years after a sudden heart attack, despite being healthy. I've found several of my pals in the US who had a tough time getting leave sanctioned in such emergencies, and the pangs of guilt they felt for being away from them loved ones in their final moments.

So this is something one must be prepared for if one goes abroad---it will be difficult to attend most social functions of near and dear ones. We Indians are more kinship-oriented and draw comfort from the circle of relatives.

In my recent visit to DC, I found that more than 70% of my pals wanted to return to India, and were seeking detailed info from me on the cost of living, schooling, etc. The reasons cited vary from:-
  1. Downturn and fear of losing their jobs.
  2. Kids growing up into teens and fear of drug addiction, pre-marital affairs, etc.
  3. Parents getting old and needing attention, though some of the parents did fly to the west, but found it lonely to live there.
  4. Exhorbitant cost of college education----it is a breeze until grade 12 however, as it is free.
  5. Lack of anticipated savings. To explain further, despite the commanding value of the currency, they generally spend 50% of their savings on visits to India, which are roughly once in 2 years.
Some of them grew in the carreer ladder till VP level, but still wanted to return after getting citizenship. They were reluctant to move right now as the houses which they bought will sell for 30% less than the rate they bought those for.

However, it is true that the qualtiy of life will be a lot better there. From cleaner water to wider roads with great civic sense, the list is never-ending. I loved the 2 stints of 3 months each in the US, and long for more.


Going by the above, it is your call and you need to take a decision keeping all + and - factors listed. Best of luck!!
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Old 7th May 2010, 17:52   #131
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Going by the above, it is your call and you need to take a decision keeping all + and - factors listed. Best of luck!!
Exactly. I hate to be the one who is being all vocal about the '-'ves because there are plenty of positives as well.
But as you put it, one needs to weigh in all the factors. It isn't all that bad, and it isn't all that rosy either.
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Old 7th May 2010, 18:07   #132
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Originally Posted by s3va View Post
Looking at the way this thread is progressing I think we should change the thread title to 'Racism : Is it worth it ?'

poor @saildrive
That is why I had mentioned the thread starter two posts back, ideally, he should have corrected the shift of this thread and not left it to be orphaned, now any post which makes sense w.r.t previous post seems utter nonsense with regard to the thread title. I think topic change is called for.
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Old 8th May 2010, 14:15   #133
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A friendly word to all those people who feel "outsiders" when they move to different parts of the country. Please consider this:

What Indians do when they move to the US?
1. Try to understand their culture
2. Try to adopt their culture when they are there.
3. Try to catch and speak their accent
4. Try to adopt to various their food habits (I don't mean forget Indian food and eat American food all day)

When I mean culture, I mean the small gestures like the "Thanks!", "Sorry", "Excuse Me", etc etc. All in all, they try to be a part of the "Melting Pot"

What Indians do when they migrate to other parts of India
1. They do not really understand the local culture and sentiments of the people. They think this is their own part of India, which seems correct to them.
2. They start hating and disrespecting the locals.
3. They start hating the local language.
4. They start hating the local food.
5. Humiliate someone who speak the local language

And what does this "CULTURAL SHOCK" mean? You guys weren't really aware that India was made of diverse cultures? You guys really thought the whole country had Channa Bhatura or Idli Vada Sambar for breakfast? Please understand that we should be tolerant to the cultures that are native to India.

The replies on this very thread is divided into two parts.
1. People who migrated to different parts of India are considerably happy (Although their number is very small)
2. People who think India is only their part of India and the rest of it is worst than any other part of the world. Huh! When you guys accept the local culture as "Indian", these problems normally do not happen.

You guys might state one-off incidents which are caused by uneducated idiots. Such idiots are everywhere. Don't you guys think?

And lastly, sorry if I have hurt anyone. I have seen both sides of the story. I have had very good friends from other part of the country who mingle with the locals. I have also seen people getting into real trouble by hurting the sentiments of the local people.

I'm open to suggestions and criticisms. Please let me know if I'm not exactly right. I would like to stand corrected.

Lets all say and MEAN this: "Mera Bharat Mahan!" JAI HIND!!!
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Old 8th May 2010, 14:21   #134
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
A friendly word to all those people who feel "outsiders" when they move to different parts of the country. Please consider this:

What Indians do when they move to the US?


What Indians do when they migrate to other parts of India
Nicely said.

A typical example, My friends in the IT industry quite a few who are from North, prefer to speak only Hindi and ask me also to talk in Hindi. I simply respond that If I come to Mumbai for instance and speak in Kannada and ask them to do so as well, will they respond?
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Old 8th May 2010, 14:37   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
A friendly word to all those people who feel "outsiders" when they move to different parts of the country. Please consider this:

What Indians do when they move to the US?
1. Try to understand their culture
2. Try to adopt their culture when they are there.
3. Try to catch and speak their accent
4. Try to adopt to various their food habits (I don't mean forget Indian food and eat American food all day)

When I mean culture, I mean the small gestures like the "Thanks!", "Sorry", "Excuse Me", etc etc. All in all, they try to be a part of the "Melting Pot"

What Indians do when they migrate to other parts of India
1. They do not really understand the local culture and sentiments of the people. They think this is their own part of India, which seems correct to them.
2. They start hating and disrespecting the locals.
3. They start hating the local language.
4. They start hating the local food.
5. Humiliate someone who speak the local language

And what does this "CULTURAL SHOCK" mean? You guys weren't really aware that India was made of diverse cultures? You guys really thought the whole country had Channa Bhatura or Idli Vada Sambar for breakfast? Please understand that we should be tolerant to the cultures that are native to India.

The replies on this very thread is divided into two parts.
1. People who migrated to different parts of India are considerably happy (Although their number is very small)
2. People who think India is only their part of India and the rest of it is worst than any other part of the world. Huh! When you guys accept the local culture as "Indian", these problems normally do not happen.

You guys might state one-off incidents which are caused by uneducated idiots. Such idiots are everywhere. Don't you guys think?

And lastly, sorry if I have hurt anyone. I have seen both sides of the story. I have had very good friends from other part of the country who mingle with the locals. I have also seen people getting into real trouble by hurting the sentiments of the local people.

I'm open to suggestions and criticisms. Please let me know if I'm not exactly right. I would like to stand corrected.

Lets all say and MEAN this: "Mera Bharat Mahan!" JAI HIND!!!
There is no strict "American Culture". Its a melting pot...u have people from all over the world. I mean i guess stuff like apple pie and lemonade, 4th of July and the other specific holidays are American culture. American culture is a amalgam of all people who have come and settled in America...but it is more of a Caucasion thing. Many older Indians (the first generation people who went there) dont really want to partake in this stuff.

Ive noticed that A LOT of the outsiders in Bangalore DO NOT want to learn Kannada or be a part of the local Bangalore culture and stuff. You cant expect everyone to know Hindi or English. Ive tried getting outsiders in my batch in college to learn Kannada, etc..but they wont. In fact, when i go somewhere people assume im automatically from somewhere else and they start speaking to me in Hindi. Im a down home Bangalorean/Kannadadiga. I understand that Hindi is the national language, but there are 22 other recognized official languages.
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