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Old 8th October 2007, 20:56   #1726
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Gambhir to be replaced by Subramaniam Badrinath. Sachin "might" not play the next match due to a niggle in the knee. He didn't take the field today during Australia's chase. Rohit Sharma could make another come back.

Team for the last two games to be decided soon. Will someone tell that good for nothing Vengsarkar to get Sehwag back in the team?
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:02   #1727
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
As anticipated Indian quickies let us down BIG time. Rank hop deliveries outside off stump, half-volleys on leg stump. Can anyone point out ONE ball that the Indian bowled that looked dangerous? ONE ball that swung? I can't. While the Aussies were constantly swinging the ball, getting uneven bounce NOT one Indian bowler could manage even 10% of what they managed. And then we proudly hold our batsmen responsible for putting this match out of the hands of the Indians.

Even if we got 350, the OZ's look like they are going to get them easily. So whose to be blamed. But of course the Indian batsmen.

Can someone tell me why Yuvraj wasted 33 ***** with a SR of around Sachin's when in sublime form (12 of 25, 18 of 31, 22 of 33)? Ball was not swinging. Could someone tell me why he threw it away giving catching practice to Ponting (what happened to diabloo's performing when it matters here)? Could someone also tell me how much India scored from over 42-48 (it was 40 runs) while 30 runs came in last two overs. While India managed 47 runs in 4.5 overs from 36-41.5 (stat that pmbabu cannot argue on) why did the run rate slump down from 42-48?

I wish more than ever that the openers should have got out early and then we must have had India with 4 down for some 30 odd runs. That IMO would have been a lot of fun.
While Tendulkar can take all his time to bat himself in and protect his wicket (as though he was doing social service by wasting *****, my goodness), do you suggest that the other member of Fab 3, Dravid should not take time? The overs between 43, 44 and 45 were the ones during which net runs scored were less than 6 and all those overs Dravid was at the crease. And need I say that Dravid was the batsman whose strike rate was less than 100 between overs 36 and 50? So, should we blame the Fab 3 again?

BTW, it is not just a few of us, read all over the Internet including Cricinfo as to what they have written/said about Sachin's innings today. We are debating as to what happened on the field today, not about how much he scored all his career or all of this year. For the record, someone said that Sachin has scored more than 1000 runs seven times in his career. FYI, Ganguly has scored six times and if he wasn't dropped probably would have scored the seventh before Sachin. Point being, if someone is opening for their international team for over 15 years, there is every chance that they will beat many records on the way, even if they just nudge and prod (like Sachin did today) during their twilight years.

Finally, as much as you criticized our bowling (and rightly so for their waywardness in the beginning), they came back brilliantly to win the match for us (without the help of umpires). Do you agree with this? If YES, then why don't you also agree that the batsmen who came along late in the innings undid most of the damage that Sachin did earlier in the Indian innings, playing 17 consecutive dot *****?
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:21   #1728
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Team for the last two games to be decided soon. Will someone tell that good for nothing Vengsarkar to get Sehwag back in the team?
Its difficult for a Mumbaikar to support someone from Delhi. very difficult for sehwag to make a comeback in ODI unless Ganguly and Sachin, both gets injured
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:25   #1729
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post

Finally, as much as you criticized our bowling (and rightly so for their waywardness in the beginning), they came back brilliantly to win the match for us (without the help of umpires). Do you agree with this? If YES, then why don't you also agree that the batsmen who came along late in the innings undid most of the damage that Sachin did earlier in the Indian innings, playing 17 consecutive dot *****?
What according to you should he have done .... he was out of sorts today and there is no denying it but he did keep his wicket intact and let the other side do the scoring . What if he had gotten out earlier , do you think the batsmen who followed would have had the liberty of playing freely ?? I seriously wonder why people use every opportunity to pounce on him or any of the so called Fab 3 .... sometime holding one end up makes more sense so that the ones in form can play freely from the other end --- take the last match for instance , if one of the top 4-5 batsmen would have hung around and given a lil support to Yuvi -- he might have won the match single handedly .

Also every one has an off day at work .... so does that mean you fire him ??? Just appreciate the team effort instead of singling out players and going on about what could have happened if this was done and what could have happened if that was done coz thats just a waste of server space . We will never know what happens out there , do we even know how to read a pitch and tell how would it behave 30 overs later --- so let them decide who should be there and who shouldn't be there . The BCCI team ( as some refer to it ) is not a squad where like the so many contests is chosen with the public populairty . SMS Dhoni if you want him as captain -- SMS Sachin out if you want him out -- SMS Top 11 that you want in the team .

Vengasrkar may be a fool now ... but no one called him that when he insisted on getting Ganguly back and Ganguly performed so why bay for his blood on the Sehwag case ??

Just sit back and watch them play -- winning and losing is a totally different issue !!

GO INDIA GO ...........

Last edited by normally_crazy : 8th October 2007 at 21:58. Reason: More than 2 smilies not allowed
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:26   #1730
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Originally Posted by greatDrive View Post
Its difficult for a Mumbaikar to support someone from Delhi. very difficult for sehwag to make a comeback in ODI unless Ganguly and Sachin, both gets injured
And here starts the North vs South debate .... BUT !!
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:27   #1731
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Originally Posted by pmbabu View Post
BTW, it is not just a few of us, read all over the Internet including Cricinfo as to what they have written/said about Sachin's innings today.

Quote:
Early in his innings he faced 17 consecutive dot ***** but once the ball stopped swinging, he worked his way back into form with a few glimpses of his brilliance. His 79 anchored the innings and he had good support from Sourav Ganguly, who who returned to the side after missing two matches.
Like Tendulkar, Ganguly struggled early but his determination not to let the bowlers dictate terms was important in India's turnaround.
Cricinfo - India's bowlers keep series alive



Quote:
The Indian captain, whose smashed 50 off 35 ***** to prop up the total to 291 while batting, and won the man of the match prize, also hailed the efforts of openers Sachin Tendulkar and Sourav Ganguly for ensuring that the team did not lose wickets in the opening 20 overs
India Skipper Dhoni Says Victory Because Of Team Effort; Australia’s Ponting Feels 292 Was Chaseable | Cricket World Cup Latest

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A record 84th one-day international half-century from Sachin Tendulkar helped India to an eight-run victory over Australia in Chandigarh
Tendulkar helps defeat Aussies - World - News - ECB
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:39   #1732
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Cricinfo - Rameez Raja: 'Dhoni was the real star' - Transcript

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Sachin got the rub of the green and he made Australia pay by concentrating on staying at the crease. Had the Indian pair not batted sensibly India could very well have been three wickets down in that early morning session. They weathered the swing, speed and variation off the pitch and provided the whole team a strong base.
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Dhoni was the real star for India - for his aggressive captaincy, selection and performance. India's aggression paid off today and it was cricketing skills and not the verbals that got them home. The series is alive and kicking
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:01   #1733
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Badrinath replaces Gambhir ???

Badrinath is 28 and Manoj Tiwary is 23. Both are equally talented and I would prefer going with Tiwary. I have seen him bat against Mumbai in the Ranji match and boy o boy is this guy talented - he also scored a nice 100 in the Irani match today. And he was the last of the recognised batsman when he came in to bat at 160-4.

Chalo - never mind - lets see
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:02   #1734
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Surprise, you missed an important quote from the first link:

<quote>
It was an awesome turnaround after one of India's more embarrassing starts, with Tendulkar initially looking out of place as the fast men swung the ball at will. He just could not lay bat on ball - Lee was especially threatening - but despite two close lbw shouts and a possible inside edge that was turned down by the umpire, Tendulkar did not give up.
</quote>

And the bulletin that was on the same page just after Indian innings said so:

<quote>
Tendulkar gradually worked himself into form after initially looking like a tailender as Bracken almost had him lbw first ball and Lee beat him a number of times with fast outswingers. He faced 17 consecutive dot ***** in the early stages and had three lucky breaks, including two close lbw shouts and a possible inside edge to Gilchrist off Lee that was turned down by the umpire.
</quote>

From rediff this:

<quote>
While Ganguly looked fluent, Tendulkar was fumbling. The right-hander in fact had a traumatic start to his knock and was clearly uncomfortable against Lee.
Going by the snickometer, the Mumbaikar was actually out caught behind for a duck off Lee. Tendulkar survived two leg before appeals, including in the first ball he faced from comeback man Nathan Bracken, twice changed his bat, but things remained same.
Lee almost caught him off his own bowling when Tendulkar's ugly fending looped up only to land in no-man's land.
</quote>
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:06   #1735
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Originally Posted by khaadu75 View Post
What according to you should he have done .... he was out of sorts today and there is no denying it but he did keep his wicket intact and let the other side do the scoring . What if he had gotten out earlier , do you think the batsmen who followed would have had the liberty of playing freely ?? I seriously wonder why people use every opportunity to pounce on him or any of the so called Fab 3 .... sometime holding one end up makes more sense so that the ones in form can play freely from the other end --- take the last match for instance , if one of the top 4-5 batsmen would have hung around and given a lil support to Yuvi -- he might have won the match single handedly .

Also every one has an off day at work .... so does that mean you fire him ??? Just appreciate the team effort instead of singling out players and going on about what could have happened if this was done and what could have happened if that was done coz thats just a waste of server space . We will never know what happens out there , do we even know how to read a pitch and tell how would it behave 30 overs later --- so let them decide who should be there and who shouldn't be there . The BCCI team ( as some refer to it ) is not a squad where like the so many contests is chosen with the public populairty . SMS Dhoni if you want him as captain -- SMS Sachin out if you want him out -- SMS Top 11 that you want in the team .

Vengasrkar may be a fool now ... but no one called him that when he insisted on getting Ganguly back and Ganguly performed so why bay for his blood on the Sehwag case ??

Just sit back and watch them play -- winning and losing is a totally different issue !!

GO INDIA GO ...........
Khaadu, I am happy that the series is still alive and we broke the Aussie ODI winning run (they have won 14 in a row). I was merely responding to McL's post/argument. OT: And it is nice to see different views, we get to see the same circumstance through varied glasses. These arguments shone up our skills in putting forth different views in personal or professional life.

Last edited by pmbabu : 8th October 2007 at 22:08.
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:19   #1736
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At last India has won against Aussies. It took them almost 4 years to beat this team. Hope the team will keep up the tempo and win atleast 2 games out of 3 left.
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:28   #1737
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pmbabu, I think this is a perfect case of NOT reading what you MUST from my posts and reading what only you WANT to. My views on this match were quite clear from the beginning and they were:

1. Sachin & Ganguly should NOT be blamed for the slow over rate. If nothing, we kept wickets in hand for the final onslaught. While at it kindly do remember that we had quite a decent RR all the way from 15 overs (anything over 4 from that point is good). And a perfect platform was being set. If either one of them had got out in the first 5 overs, I can assure you that we would have lost atleast a couple more wickets. If you don't believe kindly look back at India's track record on pitches where the ball swung this much.

2. If we can continually blame the openers for the slow progression, let us be fair in calling the blame on Yuvi for wasting the first 33 ***** of his innings as well. Only difference is Yuvi got a chance to improve his stats, but when Sachin was looking good to get a move on Dhoni ran him out. So if nothing it was a lapse of concentration on the end of both the batsmen (umpire gazing and indecision to take the single), added with a bit of luck going the Aussies way that Sachin gave up without attempting to get back.

3. I agree Dravid played slowly from overs 42-48 as well. But hang on, it doesn't end just there. Dravid faced 14 ***** and scored 13 of it. Which means Dhoni, Robin played 22 ***** of which 27 runs were scored. IMO if you have 7 wickets in hand I would go in for the kill from over 40 onwards. So aren't Dhoni, Robin to be blamed for scoring just 27 runs of 22 ***** as well? All I am asking is a fair criticism. Thats all.

4. In case you didnt read, my exact words read "I think it was Robin that saved our backs" & "NC, see I told you Dhoni is best at No 4". If you DON'T consider this as appreciation for the way they played all I can say is you clearly don't understand what I am writing.

5. It was but understood that it was the Indian opening bowlers that let the team down. And I was quite annoyed with the way they bowled, not being able to extract any kind of swing/uneven bounce that the OZ's got. Do you agree with me on that atleast? Indian bowlers were sloppy in the initial 20 overs?

6. I also pointed out the fact that till the 45th over or so the OZ's played quite well to lose the match (some sloppy batting coupled with some good bowling by Pathan, Murali & Bhajji). But the bowling effort in the death overs was quite commendable under pressure. Let me once again quote what I had mentioned "Looks like Australia did mighty well to slump down to lose until the final overs. But I must admit that Indian's bowled quite well in the death. Full credit to them.".

Are you still trying to tell me that I haven't CREDITED the team for the good work? Last I remember I credited Dhoni's knock, as I did with Robin's as well. But for me the knock played by the openers WAS AS important as the one played by Dhoni & Robin. And not the cause for India to loose the match.

If you go into the last 30 overs with about 130-140 on board and 1 wicket down (after the mess we were initially in) I think going by the norm 260 would have been a befitting score. But Indian's managed better than that. Once again kindly read my posts where I mentioned that whenever a team lost less than 4 wickets till the 30th over had BETTER chances of scoring MORE THAN DOUBLE the score at 30 overs. Which is what happened today. Rks, kindly make a note of this one in your diary too.

I ended my post saying "This is a winning total". Now if our bowlers CAN'T defend this IMO its the bowlers who are to be blamed. Is that wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmbabu
BTW, it is not just a few of us, read all over the Internet including Cricinfo as to what they have written/said about Sachin's innings today.
Do one favour for me. Kindly go and ask each one of them and most of them here IF they have EVER PLAYED A SWINGING ball in their lives to know how difficult it is to play? I don't take such comments made by arm-chair critics or value them in my book. You CANNOT understand the difficulty faced by the batsmen by watching them on camera. What cameras show is kind of slowed down version of the live action. In real life by the time you wink your eye the ball whizzes past to the keeper. Specially so, at 150kmph. Until you see it you wont believe it.

Quote:
Point being, if someone is opening for their international team for over 15 years, there is every chance that they will beat many records on the way, even if they just nudge and prod (like Sachin did today) during their twilight years.
I can show you plenty of people who have opened for half as many matches as these two have YET scored only 30% of the runs (after reducing the scores of the fab 2 by half). So that is not a thumb rule my friend.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 8th October 2007 at 22:47.
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Old 8th October 2007, 22:38   #1738
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Originally Posted by khaadu75
sometime holding one end up makes more sense so that the ones in form can play freely from the other end --- take the last match for instance , if one of the top 4-5 batsmen would have hung around and given a lil support to Yuvi -- he might have won the match single handedly .
Exactly my point.

Quote:
Also every one has an off day at work .... so does that mean you fire him ?
True once again. I don't blame you firing the openers. But while they are at it fire Yuvi too. For he is the IN FORM batsmen and the shot he played to get out was worse than Sachin prodding and poking for runs. When you ARE IN FORM you make it count. Like Symonds IS. Not by scoring brilliantly in ONE match and throw it away in the next.

Quote:
Vengasrkar may be a fool now ... but no one called him that when he insisted on getting Ganguly back and Ganguly performed so why bay for his blood on the Sehwag case ?
Vengsarkar did it because he had NO CHOICE than to bring Ganguly back in the team. But he has a choice to get Sehwag back. After he proved in T20 that he is in good touch. If he doesn't I think its the Indian team that is at loss.

NC, you have nothing to say WHY our fab 3 don't do as well as Hayden? I hope you read my post on that.

I will tell you WHOM all we fans should blame for this mess and slump in India's performances. That spirit lacking, fit for nothing coach that India hired. India were doing quite well before he got appointed, and they are doing equally well after he was sacked. It was only during his reign that we slumped down so much. He doesn't even have a track record of coaching even a gully team in any form of cricket and so many of swear by his methods even today.
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Old 8th October 2007, 23:07   #1739
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Just in:

Quote:
In truth, that 91-run opening stand between Tendulkar and Sourav Ganguly, though slow and unattractive, was the most important factor for India's eventual victory. It saw off the threat posed by the new ball under difficult conditions and allowed the middle order to bat aggressively and score 179 off the last 25 overs, taking India to 291. In fact, today was the seventh time in 87 ODIs that India managed to reach 150 against Australia without losing a second wicket.
Quote:
Later, Dhoni - Man of the Match for his unbeaten 50 off 35 ***** - acknowledged the importance of the opening stand. "The credit goes to Sachin and Sourav," he said. "We were pretty slow but the Australians bowled well in suitable conditions. I think we scored 291 only because of that start. Initially we thought we wouldn't get 250 the way we were batting and the way the ball was moving."
Read carefully. He says we thought we wouldn't get seeing the way the ball was moving. Not, that they thought they would get only 250 because of the slow start. By looking at the first 10 overs of a match every team assess their strategy and arrives at a final score they want to achieve.

Quote:
The pitch certainly did plenty in the morning. There was considerable seam movement, the bounce was uneven and, most importantly, the Australian bowlers were accurate
Quote:
India's run-chases in the previous three games had suffered because the first wicket had fallen at 1, 11 and 10. Today they didn't have a target of 300 to chase and Tendulkar and Ganguly could afford to play themselves in.
Note that everytime India lost a quick wicket they ended up losing the match.

Quote:
fter ten overs, India had scraped through to 34 for no loss, Ganguly on 21 off 31 ***** and Tendulkar on 4 off 29. But the worst was over - and, most importantly, all ten wickets were intact. The pressure eased after Lee was taken out of the attack and India scored 34 runs off the second Powerplay to steadily increase the scoring rate. Stealth was still the key for India because losing a wicket at that stage would have undone the hard work of the first ten overs. Tendulkar and Ganguly used all their experience to play patiently, where a younger batsman might have tried to counter the difficult conditions by hitting his way out of trouble.
Not always the best way to play a swinging ball.

Ponting says:
Quote:
"It looked like the wicket had become more consistent in the second innings with the new ball than the first innings. A few stayed down, a few bounced earlier today and there was some seam movement.
If India had similar conditions I can say easily that the Australians would have made a mockery of the run chase.

Source: Cricinfo - India's patience won them this shoot-out
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Old 9th October 2007, 09:02   #1740
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As I said, the selection of Hodge was already mystifying. Despite his slow batting, when Hodge got out, Australia were 243-5 off 43.2 overs, meaning they needed just 49 runs off 47 deliveries with 5 wkts in hand and Andrew Symonds still playing and guys like Hogg, Hopes and Lee still left. That should have been a routine win for Australia. They again manage to choke in the last 3 overs, getting just 15, just like they did in T20. Brett Lee, normally a big sixer hitter, gets 5 off 14.

Now we have an abundance of news reports about how Tendulkar and Ganguly won the match for India by their magnificent batting and so on. The most sickening of these is here:

You can't replace seniors: Dhoni*-*News*-*News*-*Indiatimes Cricket

"Seniors are irreplacable", by M. S. Dhoni.

Pathetic and laughable. As I said before:

1. Playing defensively in one-day cricket and preserving your wicket is much easier than in Test cricket, where there no restrictions on field placements or bouncers. Many batsmen can play the defensive role that Sachin and Saurav are playing and you don't need "seniors" for that purpose.

2. The logic of keeping wickets in hand to justify slow scoring only makes sense if the set batsmen accelerate. But that doesn't happen with Sachin and Saurav. They play along at about 4 runs per over (at which rate the Aussies score in Test cricket these days) and then make their exit, saddling the incoming, unset batsmen wth the mountainous task of accelerating.

Logicaly it is the set batsmen who are expected and better-suited to accelerate (thereby justifying their slow start), but do not expect our media "experts" to point that out. Now it is praise time for our seniors and let us all join the chorus.

Last edited by rks : 9th October 2007 at 09:08.
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