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Old 29th November 2012, 23:44   #7216
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Selfdrive
Hi
Hemanth.anand has posted(no 7122) the runs scored by Kallis.
12005 + 271 wickets
Zaheer has 279 wickets.
As a team S.Africa has 1.5 runouts per test match vs 1 per match and he is part of this side.Would definitely be a better fielder.
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Old 30th November 2012, 00:07   #7217
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Originally Posted by lloydofcochin View Post
Come on buddy. This is the usual rant that everyone has about Sachin. But let us not forget that after all Cricket is a team game don't forget the runs he scored in 2003 & 2011 WC's to get us in to the finals. If he had not fired in the group stages & semis we would not have entered the finals. And the 2003 finals were lost when our bowlers had conceded 359 runs

And then people talk about scoring in the 4th innings but conveniently forget about the scores he has made in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd innings.

Lara has always played for himself most of the time and the exceptions were very few the 153 being one of them.

Edit - I too loved watching Mark Waugh but my all time favorite is still the Wristmaster from Hyderabad - Azhar.
well Sachin is my all time fav player and one of the only two players I'd actually pay to watch! (the other is Jayasuriya). Sadly Suriya has already retired (or has he? as he keeps coming back) and Sachin is in the twilight of his career. I'll be moving out of cricket once Sachin retires!

But still this feeling remains - the best/biggest players are the ones that perform on the biggest stage! Thats why Pele or Zidane are up there in football (and not someone like Gascoigne though in terms of ability he wasnt second to those two).

Sachin has repeatedly come short on the biggest stage or in the finals. There was a time when India lost about 18-19 finals!!! I remember Ganguly was our captain during those times. I so wished we'd rather have won some and not reached the finals in others!

Similarly for Sachin I wish he had rather a bit less number of runs and was involved in bit more charismatic finishes. I wish it was him who had scored winning run in the WC final. Believe me I do not like it one bit that Punter has been the greater batsman but then what can you do. The guy has done it all!

@faustus77

Bowling stats mean nothing when discussing batting! Kallis is a fantastic all rounder. But it does not mean his wickets add anything to the runs he has scored!

And for the record Sachin also has 200 international wickets to his name! 30k+ runs and 200 wickets! Not bad by any means.

Last edited by joslicx : 30th November 2012 at 00:17.
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Old 30th November 2012, 01:10   #7218
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Since we're talking about great players, I'd like to throw in Kallis in there.

The man is one good innings away from 13k runs in Test Cricket and at 282 wickets, is a dozen short of Zaheer Khan's tally of 294.

That's simply incredible in terms of sheer numbers. His contribution to SA Cricket is something that's more than just commendable.
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Old 30th November 2012, 08:06   #7219
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Ponting makes a graceful exit if this is true.
Ponting lost captaincy, then had a poor scores as batsman. He was talking about playing in Ashes a day before he announced his retirement. An year ago was the right time for Ponting. Its nice gesture that CA is giving him a farewell test (unlike Laxman).
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Huge loss for the game.
Somebody who has contributed, entertained and now retiring. How is that a loss?
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Actually for all those 30000 runs that he has scored, you could count on one hand the real crunch innings!
Isn't that a tragedy for a man who has played over 750 international innings?
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Old 30th November 2012, 10:11   #7220
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-...ry/594391.html
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As for Tendulkar's place in the side, let's also apply the same yardstick for some others. Gautam Gambhir has struggled for longer, Yuvraj Singh has looked more out of sorts, Zaheer Khan is less fit, and R Ashwin is less athletic than Tendulkar.
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Old 30th November 2012, 10:44   #7221
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An year ago was the right time for Ponting. Its nice gesture that CA is giving him a farewell test (unlike Laxman).
Somebody who has contributed, entertained and now retiring. How is that a loss?
It was Laxman's decision to not to play against England. He was actually selected for the series.

Loss for the game - Yes it is a huge loss, as the game lost one of its favorite child.

But I see this as , every great players retirement is a run scored by the game itself
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Old 30th November 2012, 10:55   #7222
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That's simply incredible in terms of sheer numbers. His contribution to SA Cricket is something that's more than just commendable.
Buddy the same criticism applies to Kallis as well. He hasnt really inspired SA to very many great things. They have not won any international tournament of repute in my knowledge and have only recently climbed to top of test rankings when all others have faded. Just like Sachin, Kallis has also accumulated statistics!!!

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Somebody who has contributed, entertained and now retiring. How is that a loss?
Its a loss if the void his departure leaves cant be filled just like Mcgrath or Warne! He is the biggest star of possibly (arguably) the greatest cricket side ever! And he was a great leader, a real fighter (someone who led by example) and great entertainer. Clarke is seen as his successor but he has been too hot and cold too often. Ponting made people forget Steve Waugh!! Lets see if Clarke can do that. Otherwise it is a loss!!! Cricket is anyway slowly losing its stars. Pak has none now, SL has almost none, Eng have none. WI have only Gayle, once Kallis goes SA will have only Steyn, NZ have none, Ind have only Sachin, Dhoni and now Kohli. Let me know if I missed somebody (it might be intentional though )

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Isn't that a tragedy for a man who has played over 750 international innings?
It is indeed. Thats why I said, I'd rather he'd scored lesser runs but more important ones. Theres only one series I can think of when he played above mere mortals (its that Sharjah 1997/98 thingy when he gave Aus a royal hiding). I wish there were more of those.

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Its a measure of our dependence (and also love) that people still talk much more about him than anybody else. Your Gambhirs, Shehwags, our entire bowling attack etc are so lucky that they have a certain Tendulkar to mask their consistent failures.
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Old 30th November 2012, 11:44   #7223
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IMO, in the last decade and a half the best batsmen were Sachin, Lara, Ponting, Dravid, Kallis and Hayden(yes him too). Each one of them have dominated Test cricket at some point and have been right at the top.

Now how does one define Greatness - Stats ? Dominance ? Wins ? Impact ?

If stats alone was a claim to greatness, then we must be start including a few Sri lankans too

During their peak, no one dominated like Ponting. He has more wins, and had a masive impact. Yes he had the luxury of a great team. But to go out and dominate game after game is no mean feat. Lets not forget, he was also one of the reasons for his team to be a great team. He was the man who delivered when the team needed. He was the player for the big occasion. So purely as a batsman, he is on top of my list.

Hayden, probably had more impact on the game than Lara and Sachin both. Yes, he has only around 8k runs. But he has played the least of the whole lot and packed 30 centuries in there. Each one of them scored as an opener and more often than not resulted in a win. At his peak his dominance and contribution to the team wins are comparable to USEFUL runs scored by Lara and Sachin over a career.

Sachin has all the stats in the world. He is a brilliant batsman. Has he dominated bowling ? Yes. Where ? Sharjah and Chennai. Has he won you matches ? Yes. Where ? Sharjah and Chennai. Has he delivered when the team needed ? Is he a big match player ? Now we are talking of a career spanning over 2 decades. There are way too many questions to be answered before calling him the greatest ever. Heck, we have whole lot of people who rate Dravid higher than Sachin which tells a story in itself.

Coming to Dravid, well we all know that, every memorable Test win India has had , his name features in there. He might not have the stats to match Sachin, but his runs were more often scored when the team needed. So i rate him higher than Sachin. Sachin is a better batsman no doubt, but i still RD higher.

Kallis is probably the best cricketer ever. How do we know that ? Because we have access to cricinfo and we get to see his stats. I know its too harsh a comment to make. Kallis the batsman for me is behind Sachin and Ponting. But Kallis the cricketer is ahead of all.

Lara was a brilliant batsmen. Someone for whom you would pay to watch. When in full flow, he is a sight for the gods. But i would like to leave it with that, for he has done very little apart from giving pleasure.
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Old 30th November 2012, 11:59   #7224
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Default Re: The Cricket Thread

We tend to find lot of great cricketers in the last decade or so because of the number of matches they have played. We need to keep that apart and look at impact. Ponting a few years was scoring a century almost every test. Clarke will do the same I think.

Lara could bat anyway, for himself or for the team and like a rock or like lightning. For Sachin everyone remembers the matches in Sharjah in ODIs (for a period of 23 years !)
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Old 30th November 2012, 12:12   #7225
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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
well Sachin is my all time fav player and one of the only two players I'd actually pay to watch! (the other is Jayasuriya). Sadly Suriya has already retired (or has he? as he keeps coming back) and Sachin is in the twilight of his career. I'll be moving out of cricket once Sachin retires!

But still this feeling remains - the best/biggest players are the ones that perform on the biggest stage! Thats why Pele or Zidane are up there in football (and not someone like Gascoigne though in terms of ability he wasnt second to those two).

Sachin has repeatedly come short on the biggest stage or in the finals. There was a time when India lost about 18-19 finals!!! I remember Ganguly was our captain during those times. I so wished we'd rather have won some and not reached the finals in others!

Similarly for Sachin I wish he had rather a bit less number of runs and was involved in bit more charismatic finishes. I wish it was him who had scored winning run in the WC final. Believe me I do not like it one bit that Punter has been the greater batsman but then what can you do. The guy has done it all!
I too am wondering how will I watch Cricket without Sachin. I still feel that he has few more good innings left. It is just that he needs to play with a clear & positive mindset.

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Sure. We have waited for nearly 2 years now.

Yeah all Sachin fans would think so
I'm sure that from your previous posts that you are no fan of Sachin and would love to see him fail.

Sport is just not all about numbers and I love watching it for what it is.

Sachin will surely prove you & other naysayers wrong
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Old 30th November 2012, 13:21   #7226
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Sure. We have waited for nearly 2 years now.
Yeah all Sachin fans would think so
Well, there are worse cases in the team than Sachin. So its better to focus on them first. If we dont have a replacement for Yuvraj at no.6 who is the replacement for Sachin at no. 4?
Will it be Sehwag? In which case who will open with Gambhir, who himself is not a shoo in. as of today, only Pujara and Ojha are shoo ins. Perhaps Sehwag too. the others need to be questioned and debated.

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Originally Posted by faustus77 View Post
Hemanth.anand has posted(no 7122) the runs scored by Kallis.
12005 + 271 wickets
Zaheer has 279 wickets.
As a team S.Africa has 1.5 runouts per test match vs 1 per match and he is part of this side.Would definitely be a better fielder.
So effectively Kallis is Sachin + Zaheer put together. And I think at some level he would still bowl faster than Zaheer.

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The man is one good innings away from 13k runs in Test Cricket and at 282 wickets, is a dozen short of Zaheer Khan's tally of 294.
Till an England tour a few years back, he was never really out of form.

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Originally Posted by joslicx View Post
Its a loss if the void his departure leaves cant be filled just like Mcgrath or Warne! He is the biggest star of possibly (arguably) the greatest cricket side ever!
What you say is actually applicable to Kallis. South Africa do not have any allrounder in their ranks to replace him. Gone are the days when a McMillan would be replaced by a Klusener or a Pollock. the closest they have is Ryan McLaren and he is not in that class at all.

In my opinion it would be less difficult to replace Ponting than to replace McGrath or Warne.
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Old 30th November 2012, 13:40   #7227
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Originally Posted by lloydofcochin View Post
I'm sure that from your previous posts that you are no fan of Sachin and would love to see him fail.

Sachin will surely prove you & other naysayers wrong
I'm sure Sachin fans would like him to stay on as long as he lives

Nobody wants him to fail. He had his chance for the past 2 decades and he's taken it. He's proved it many a time. Just that in this situation he has taken a lot of time trying to prove it and he hasn't been able to do so either. He should take a clue from this.

You could say look at all others who are under performing. Yes, there are others and I'm sure they will be looked at once he goes. After all he is the senior most person in the squad and if he gets plenty of chances based on what he's done in the past, the others can always say when the senior guy is getting a chance, why not me?

All this talk about Sachin asking selectors to take a call is just hogwash. Why would a selector put his job on the line by dropping Sachin? I don't know what happened with Mohinder Amarnath, but the way Rajeev Shukla sprung to Sachin's defence when his bad performance was talked about, will definitely send a message to the selectors. Nobody wants to be enemies of Sachin (or his fans).

Finally, everyone says Sachin knows when to go. I definitely hope it is not when he forcibly kicked out from the team. For a batsman who is deemed 'the god' of Indian cricket, it is not at all worthy of his stature to be dropped (especially at this stage of his life).
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Old 30th November 2012, 14:13   #7228
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With due respect to everyone who is flawing Sachin here, please note that he is still the highest ranked Indian batsman in the ICC Test Rankings, at #18. This in spite of performing below his customary level over the last 2 years or so, which I will not deny.

One really cannot question his work ethic, which is probably as strong right now as it ever has been. Apart from that, another thing that he said about a year or so back is that while most people say that you should quit at the top of his game, he thinks that is selfish. That amounts to having more importance for your stature rather than for what you can contribute to the team. He will continue playing till he feels he has no more contributions left for the team. Specially at this time when the reserve cupboard is pretty bare, I think he should be allowed that much.

Besides, as was said in an article about him recently, "People are struggling to come to terms with his mortality. They want him to retire because they want to live with happier memories. That's selfish. Allow the man his struggle. He works hard to be an India player, and is not going to give it away just because we don't find it pretty."

The lesson to be learned from the Mumbai Test was that the quality has eroded away from the team that was once No.1, and some reforms are in order. Instead, all that people are focusing on is Sachin's failure. Let's look at a few other examples, shall we?

Sehwag is a guy who will play one blistering innings in a while, get everyone praising him and his critics shut up for the next few games. Then, he will be back to his original self of irresponsible slashing and poking. When the tongues start wagging again, he will play another blinder. This seems to have become his routine.

In the last innings Gambhir seemed to have really worked on his temperament, so I think it will be fair to give him a few more chances before we say anything.

Virat Kohli is no doubt an excellent prospect for the future, but he still needs to understand that Test cricket is Test cricket. Where is the resolve he showed in Adelaide? Having said that though, I am pretty confident that he will come good soon.

Ashwin and Harbhajan have been affected way too much due to the mentality of limited overs cricket, and this is evident from their constant flat deliveries and bowling a negative line. This not only reduces wicket taking opportunities, but gives ample scoring opportunities to class players like Cook and Pietersen. Sometimes I wonder whether they are throwing darts at the batsman's legs...

As for the No.6 spot, I don't know whether it comes down to inconsistent selection strategies. Raina, who is having issues with the short ball, plays on green tops in England, and Yuvraj, who has never been an excellent player of spin, plays on turners in the subcontinent. Yuvraj plays the short ball much better and would have been a better bet abroad, while Raina, who can easily tackle spinners, is more suited to the subcontinent where the bounce is more suited to his batting. Anybody remember his 100 on debut against Sri Lanka??

As for Dhoni, the lesser said, the better. Nobody else would have survived 0-8 as captain. He did on the back of the World Cup victory, and simply because he is Dhoni. Mohinder Amarnath, one of the rarer sensible voices in the administration, was sidelined because he did not want Dhoni as Test Captain. And few would vouch for his usefulness in the Test side currently. Slump in his wicket keeping is commonplace now, and I don't remember the last time his batting had a significant impact in a Test match against a sizable opposition. His unorthodox technique, that works well in ODIs, is simply not suited to the longer format. While Saha continues scoring tons of runs in the domestic circuit, he has simply been swept under the carpet due to Dhoni's affluence. How much longer will he survive on past glory?

Considering all these issues, I think the string of Sachin's poor performances is not the only reason for India's fate. It's time we give the man room to breath and back him to come good. He knows what his shortcomings are, and is capable enough to get over them.

Sorry for the long ranting. I know it is easy to say all these things sitting in my comfortable chair rather than being out there in the middle, but I have been ardently following Indian cricket over the years, and it really pains me to see this continuous slide after the team that Ganguly had built from ground up. In spite of that, I always defend against those who say the future is hopeless, and will continue to do so.

Unconditionally.

Last edited by swarnava.m : 30th November 2012 at 14:19.
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Old 30th November 2012, 14:20   #7229
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Who's Andrew Flintoff ??? An English Cricket all rounder. NO. He's a boxer.

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Old 30th November 2012, 17:21   #7230
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People using lack of form of other players as an excuse for Sachin's long run of poor form are ignoring the fact that others have age (and thus time) on their side to bounce back whereas Sachin at nearly 40, literally has his back against the wall.

And one more thing that scares me even more is the probability that if and when Sachin will make a big score, it will be at such a low pace that it will end up doing more damage than good to the team.
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