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Old 25th September 2007, 16:53   #1141
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
All that I know is that ANY COACH in this world or ANY GOOD READER of the game (say for eg commentators like Sunny, Ravi, Boycott) will tell you to bowl straight wicket to wicket. And in the block hole. NO ONE advocates bowling wide, unless the batsmen is making so much room that one feels the need that its the only way to stop the ball from hitting the bat. By bowling wide, you give rise to a lot of shots. The shot over cover, run the ball down to third man or between deep 3rd man and backward point (because you are basically giving room to the batsmen).
In wicket to wicket bowling, margin of error is too less, you drift slightly towards leg and there is always a four to be taken.

In wide bowling, scoring is easy if the ball is either too short or too full, hitting a wide length ball is not that easy. And as is evident from his bowling, in his first three overs he bowled 6 ***** to Younis Khan (for 6 runs), 6 ***** to Shoaib Malik (for 3 runs) and 6 ***** to Misbah-ul-Haq (for 3 runs); plus a wide.

Out of these three batsmen, Shoaib Malik and Misbah were in form of their lives, and Younis too wasn't playing bad. So please accept the fact that Joginder bowled according to a plan and succeeded in that.

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Joginder got away with the bowling. And bowling to an inform Younis Khan also helped matters.
You meant out-of-form, don't you ;-)

Cheers

Nitin

Last edited by ntomer : 25th September 2007 at 16:58.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:01   #1142
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Nitin, its not about how much I played or what I know about. All that I know is that ANY COACH in this world or ANY GOOD READER of the game (say for eg commentators like Sunny, Ravi, Boycott) will tell you to bowl straight wicket to wicket. And in the block hole. NO ONE advocates bowling wide, unless the batsmen is making so much room that one feels the need that its the only way to stop the ball from hitting the bat. By bowling wide, you give rise to a lot of shots. The shot over cover, run the ball down to third man or between deep 3rd man and backward point (because you are basically giving room to the batsmen). Joginder got away with the bowling. And bowling to an inform Younis Khan also helped matters.
Those guys will also never advice anyone to play scoop over over fine leg for SIX Also they would never tell a batsman to go for six 6s in an over. Sunny will only advice to play every shot with high elbow, straight bat and good foot moment. None of it will work in T20.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:10   #1143
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In wicket to wicket bowling, margin of error is too less, you drift slightly towards leg and there is always a four to be taken.
Nitin, if nothing, Joginder was as close to being called a wide of every ball . This margin to straying down the leg is nominal. It was THAT close.

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hitting a wide length ball is not that easy.
Go down on one knee and try to play it through backward point and 3rd man (see Yuvraj, Gilchrist, Dravid play this shot so well). And see how you can find the fence. If nothing even a slightly skywards shot that clears the inner circle will fetch you a couple of runs. By bowling at the stumps you are not only curtailing the batsmen from the freedom to free his arms, but if he misses you hit. When you bowl wide you are taking out every opportunity of taking wickets (no LBW, no bowled, no caught behind because that wide it will fly off the edge to the fence). And the best known way to keep runs down is by taking wickets.
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You meant out-of-form, don't you ;-)
Yup, out of form it is.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:16   #1144
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My wife forwarded this Email message: The mystery is solved.
That was a nice one..
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:17   #1145
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Those guys will also never advice anyone to play scoop over over fine leg for SIX Also they would never tell a batsman to go for six 6s in an over. Sunny will only advice to play every shot with high elbow, straight bat and good foot moment. None of it will work in T20.
Prajesh, quite interesting that you left Ravi's name out of the highlighted list . It has been quite clear that ORTHODOX shots in this version of the game have had the best success and not slogging or Ashraful's. Look at the stats on how many 4s & 6s were hit with success of orthodox shots and how many of these pre-determined shots lead to success or wickets. You will get your answer. There is a reason why they say what they do. I don't know if you listened carefully but Sunny, Ian Chappel, Rameez Raja, Ravi Shastry, Gooch, almost every commentator kept mentioning that ORTHODOX shots were the biggest success in this format of the game and a good cricketer (be it a test match/50 over game player) can play well in this format of the game too. If he knows his basics well. IMO its true.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:18   #1146
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Whatever be the cost, but BCCI should somehow include Rohit Sharma for the upcoming Aussies ODI series. He must be high on confidence, If he does not get chances now, His talent will get wasted, Sooner he comes in the team .. better for team India middle order.

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Old 25th September 2007, 17:22   #1147
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Nitin, if nothing, Joginder was as close to being called a wide of every ball . This margin to straying down the leg is nominal. It was THAT close.
But he did bowl only a single wide. Do you really believe that he not bowling those delivery intentionally; and had no control over those?

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Go down on one knee and try to play it through backward point and 3rd man (see Yuvraj, Gilchrist, Dravid play this shot so well). And see how you can find the fence. If nothing even a slightly skywards shot that clears the inner circle will fetch you a couple of runs.
Pakistanis were really stupid to hire that gora coach; if only they would have hired you, they could have won this match easily.
Do you really think that batsmen of Younis, Shoaib and Misbah's caliber couldn't hit Joginder only because luck was on his wide, otherwise he was bowling rubbish. C'mon give credit where it is due. And stop deriding your own team just for augument's sake.

Cheers

Nitin
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:25   #1148
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A great match indeed which kept us guessing till the last wicket fell. Irfan Pathan deserved the man of the match and for me R.P.Singh was the man of tournament. The best thing was that it was a team effort and everyone contributed to the victory. It's high time we move away from the personality culture. I am going to stick my head out and say this, if Sachin, Sourav and Rahul had played we wouldn't have won the cup. Young players got us the world cup. Good job team India!



Greg Chappel should be showing us the middle finger. We Indians have a habit of hogging all the credit when things go good for us. All the time that Chappel was the coach, he kept repeating like a parrot that youngsters are the way to go and we should give young players a chance. Then all of us were going gaga over Dada and calling Chappel names. Today we hail Yuvraj as the hero. Chappel had commented that Yuvraj has other things on his mind and if he concentrates on his game he can turn out to be a great asset to the team. Back them we took his comments personally and lambasted him for 'talking crap'. I find the headlines in today's newspapers and the media reports funny. Print and TV Media are talking about youngsters doing it for India. Chappel said the same thing. Back then he was the villian because we couldn't think of a future without Sachin, Sourav and Rahul. Today the media is asking who Sachin, Rahul and Sourav?

1.I agree with Amit here.With these Big3 would could have reached semi ir final but choked there only as it had been happening in all finals before this T20 cup.

2.I agree again.Chappel wanted yuvi in the test team as well.But obviously he had to come in place of saurav,so thats why Ganguly [as clever as his master dalmiya] had a problem with Coach.
I remember a TEST match when Yuvi had replaced a injured player and when he scored a century he reacted in way that demonsterated his frustruation for not being regular in the test team.Chappel came out of dressing room to balcony and also showed his happines by clapping for longer time than usual and then raising his both arms to yuvi as if he is saying to him that point has been proved.

Last night after India had won the T20 cup,Sachin told CNN IBN and then just translated in hindi on Aaj-Tak later that its people's fault that they had too much expectations from us in March 07 and not many from this.These are totally ridiculous comments from the great batsman.Not many expected this team to win becuase of senior team's poor performances in the recent past and it was no fault of this team that not many were expecting this team to win T20 cup.

When they win they get so much applause not to talk about the money/fame endorsements etc but they should be ready to loose some if they play poorly.

World cup is still just under 4yrs away and i think we should continue with present team and drop senior players from one day team only if we want to win next world cup.They all will be over 38 and i dont think they will have enough strength/stamina/attitude to do it.Players like Rohit,Robin,Gambhir,Yusuf deserve much longer run and that can only happen at the expense of big3.Rohit was just a passenger with the team before he got the chance.

Almost 2 yrs back when Utthapa scored 80odd in a match he was dropped in the next match because India was in the final and it was thought that Sehwag would be better choice as he has more experiance and it will be handy in final.What does Sehwag do,he got out in 20's.

Look at australia,just one yr before 2003 WC,Waugh brother dint play well [well...they averaged between 30-35} in a tournamant also involving NZ and SA.After the league matches all the 3 teams were tied on same points but NZ and SA went through to Final and Aus missed out at home.That was enough for Aus selectors to drop them and include player like Symonds,Martin etc.We all know what they did in that WC.


In this T20 cup both India and Pak played well but Pakistan was just not able to cope up with the pressure of final and fear of loosing once early wickets are gone cheaply.

well done 'D' company!!!!

Last edited by rsjaurr : 25th September 2007 at 17:26.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:43   #1149
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World cup is still just under 4yrs away and i think we should continue with present team and drop senior players from one day team only if we want to win next world cup.They all will be over 38 and i dont think they will have enough strength/stamina/attitude to do it.Players like Rohit,Robin,Gambhir,Yusuf deserve much longer run and that can only happen at the expense of big3.Rohit was just a passenger with the team before he got the chance.
doc, our seniors are in the team for personal glory. It is like they have worked so hard for the last 10-20 years (very true) & now they want to sit back & enjoy the accolades (on the field) without retiring & we the spectators are forced to accept that. When i said somewhere in this thread about giving chances to youngsters, a lot of these nice folks were so angry & said who is there to replace them ? Well, we all saw what exposure can do for someone like rohit sharma, yousuf pathan & robin uthappa.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:50   #1150
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But he did bowl only a single wide. Do you really believe that he not bowling those delivery intentionally; and had no control over those?
I think he lacked common sense.

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Pakistanis were really stupid to hire that gora coach; if only they would have hired you, they could have won this match easily.
Do you really think that batsmen of Younis, Shoaib and Misbah's caliber couldn't hit Joginder only because luck was on his wide, otherwise he was bowling rubbish. C'mon give credit where it is due. And stop deriding your own team just for augument's sake.

Cheers

Nitin
And you will coach the Indian side? Nitin, don't argue for the sake of arguing. I have never heard anyone say bowl WIDE to contain runs TILL DATE. And I am sure NO ONE EVER WILL (in their right minds). If you think otherwise, feel free to send an e-mail on this regard on one of these cricket shows to these commentators and get your views cleared (the sooner the better or attend one of these cricket coaching camps). And I am going to warn you to keep these insults out of this discussion. If you can have a clean chat do so, or look elsewhere.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 25th September 2007 at 17:54.
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Old 25th September 2007, 17:58   #1151
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Against Australia in home conditions, we should play 6 batsmen (including Dhoni), Irfan Pathan as all-rounder and 4 bowlers. I would say it is the choice of bowlers that is going to be crucial. We probably have two sets of batsmen who can do equally well under benign batting conditions in India. The pitches are likely to be rigged up to be lacking in pace/bounce, so that an important Aussie advantage is negated.

Bangalore could be an exception, though. At this time of the year the ball might move around a little in cloudy Bangalore weather. Plus on some of the pitches our spinners might hold the key. So of the 4 bowlers, two should normally be spinners, unless conditions favour the seamers -- in which case we should pick 3 seamers plus one spinner.

Unfortunately, we are likely to pick 7 batsmen and only 4 regular bowlers (including Pathan, if selected). That I think will be a mistake. Pathan is a good all-rounder and his batting potential should be properly utilized. Powar and Chawla can bat too. Even with 6 batsmen Pathan and Powar/Chawla are unlikely to get a serious chance with the bat under Indian conditions, so picking 7 batsmen will be a total waste. And our fifth part-time bowler will go for plenty of runs.
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Old 25th September 2007, 18:12   #1152
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Hey McLaren, you need to take a break man. First you say India deserved to lose this T20 WC. Then you criticized J-wide Singh's tactics even though it paid off. Even though we are yet over the WC win euphoria, you moved the discussion to ODI series starting on Saturday. You included injured Piyush Chawla in the team. You added Rohit Sharma to the playing 11 even though he is not in 15 member team. Then you say Ganguly should be the captain though Dhoni is already appointed the captain. Finally you say Dravid should keep wickets Give us a break man
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Old 25th September 2007, 18:20   #1153
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Hey McLaren, you need to take a break man. First you say India deserved to lose this T20 WC. Then you criticized J-wide Singh's tactics even though it paid off. Even though we are yet over the WC win euphoria, you moved the discussion to ODI series starting on Saturday. You included injured Piyush Chawla in the team. You added Rohit Sharma to the playing 11 even though he is not in 15 member team. Then you say Ganguly should be the captain though Dhoni is already appointed the captain. Finally you say Dravid should keep wickets Give us a break man
Diabloo, let me know how it feels to criticize players all the time? Only difference is everyone did it while the team was loosing while I did it while it was winning. See the difference? When the team was in the dumps, I asked for the same. Give it a break. None of you listened. So bear with me . I am here only to annoy you . Btw, I never said India deserved to loose, I said Pakistan deserved to win. Both sound a lot different. Boss, thats the team I wanted to play for the 1st match. Anything wrong? Or is just that only you lot can express your opinions here? And that too only constructive ones ONLY when the team wins?

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Old 25th September 2007, 18:35   #1154
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Folks, everyone needs to take a break. Not mclaren alone. I appreciate everyone's right to call their logic correct and argue about it but not at the cost of pulling someone down.

Just becoz someone begs to differ, don't get down to personalities.

I think Sree Santh is going to get tonked by Hayden. Did you watch the way he sledged Hayden when he came back as a runner for Hussey. Hayden was livid. Its going to be fun. :-)

I fully believe in giving it back to the Aussies. Thats were Dada was good. He kept needling Steve Waugh!!!
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Old 25th September 2007, 18:36   #1155
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I think he lacked common sense.

And you will coach the Indian side? Nitin, don't argue for the sake of arguing. I have never heard anyone say bowl WIDE to contain runs TILL DATE. And I am sure NO ONE EVER WILL (in their right minds). If you think otherwise, feel free to send an e-mail on this regard on one of these cricket shows to these commentators and get your views cleared (the sooner the better or attend one of these cricket coaching camps). And I am going to warn you to keep these insults out of this discussion. If you can have a clean chat do so, or look elsewhere.
McLaren, help me here. Exactly how did I insult you?

And I concede defeat, I can not argue with somebody who is not wiling to listen with a open mind.

Have a nice day.

Cheers

Nitin
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