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Old 3rd October 2007, 13:50   #1441
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Are you telling T20 doesn't require skill & talent? My cricketing skills are minimal. Can I play T20 for Australia?
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The entertainment and fun value is always there in a sport, else why would we watch sports at all. It doesnt mean that we disregard the skill and talent and make the game such that it becomes entertainment only.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 13:56   #1442
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This comparison doesnt makes sense. The 100m race is a test of speed and marathon is a test of will and stamina, entirely different IMHO.
Well that is the whole point isn't it?

T20 is a game too. It is a form of the game which the Aussies could not excel in (yet ). ODI 50 is another game, which the aussies excel in. Why demean either form of the game?
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Old 3rd October 2007, 14:17   #1443
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Well that is the whole point isn't it?

T20 is a game too. It is a form of the game which the Aussies could not excel in (yet ). ODI 50 is another game, which the aussies excel in. Why demean either form of the game?
The discussion was centered around Gilchrist comments to which I agree wholeheartedly. You cannot really predict the result of a 20-20 game.
We couldnt have predicted India would win it while in case of 50-50 world cup we were sure India wouldnt win it unless a miracle happens or team strikes gold.
Or if I ask you a question, Who will win the match b/w Bangladesh and Australia in a one day game? Can you say with conviction.. Bangladesh

Also, the fact is that T20 win is blown out of proportion, while its a commendable effort by the team, it surely isnt worth the hoopla surrounding it and offcourse this win does not make us the world champion in all forms of the game as people seems to have been thinking. Whats with the talk of India on an even keel with Australia? Or this series will be a close fight? The past 2 games were anything but close, infact a meek suurender by the overhyped, overpaid cricketers and we are all responsible for it in someway.

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Old 3rd October 2007, 14:23   #1444
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Are you telling T20 doesn't require skill & talent? My cricketing skills are minimal. Can I play T20 for Australia?
Dude if you are hell bent on arguing, just for the sake of it... I give up!
The question is does it require as much skill as a one day match or a test match? And should this win be hyped and celebrated as much as it has? You know what all these celebrations are hollow, when we know that our beloved world champs would be steam rolled by Australia, playing at home.

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Old 3rd October 2007, 14:33   #1445
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MOM is awarded to the player who collects most baggage in the match. Similarly MOS is awarded to the player who collects most baggage in the series. His contribution may not win the match or series for his team. No wonder Sachin gets it most of the time.
And I always kept thinking that MOTM awards are given to that person who has given the best contribution to the game in setting up a win or played so wonderfully that he DESERVED it. Quoting the example you mentioned, it should go like... Sachin gave the platform for the rest. If they didn't utilize it from there on and setup a win they (middle & lower order batsmen) don't deserve to play because that is the key reason they are in the team for. Specially when teams like Australia, Sri Lanka, South Africa have all been doing it for ages now. Ponting doesn't always finish off an entire game for them. Hussey does lower down the order carrying on from where Ponting, Hayden or Gilchrist left off. Jayasurya doesn't always finish the game off, its Sangakara who does the job. Gibbs, Kallis aren't the ones that always stay till the end, it was players like Lance Kluesner who used to do the job. Get the drift?

Unfortunately, by your theory all their (top order) contribution of building the platform ought to be negated and credit given to a guy who plays some 30 odd ***** with the perfect platform of having wickets in hand & has to score at 8 RPO in the death overs than credit a guy who has to play a swinging/seaming white ball & make sure they are given the right start? I guess the expert panel consisting of elite former cricketers are too dumb to recognize who the real MOTM has to be? Oh, same applies to MOTS as well. Ever wondered why Afridi got it? Inspite of India winning the tournament? Its because he showed excellence with the bat & the ball in the whole tournament. Thats what the awards mean, not what you think it does.

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Are you telling T20 doesn't require skill & talent?
Can you kindly tell me how much of this BOWLING talent you noticed from this series? That can be carried or warrants a place for a player in other forms of cricket. Or can you prove the hard hitting in this series actually is being carried into 50 over games? Look at the 6s in this series, do any of them remind you off T20. How come the same players who kept hitting 119mtrs 6s are just managing to clear the boundaries?

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Thats the beauty of T20, nobody knows who wins till the last couple of overs.
You said it, its like a gamble. You get lucky on some days, on others you don't (like SA got eliminated after loosing just 1 match). You don't necessarily have to have the strongest team to win. Prime examples being Zimbabwe & Bangladesh. On the hindsight, in a 50 over game if a team plays "better all-round cricket" they win. That better cricket could come from any of the two teams. And in this form of the game the "weakness" of either teams are exposed. The one who utilizes the best from these weaknesses wins.

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Gilchrist is looking at the wrong end and trying to offer a lame excuse for their loss in T20 WC.
I say its this lame excuse of ours to feel happy that T20 is the only game where India won & hence we come up with these excuses. Are you sure that the T20 champions WILL win all further tournaments in T20 this convincingly or take the cups? Because I can go onto say that OZ's will certainly do that in 80% of the tests & ODI's.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 3rd October 2007 at 14:50.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 14:34   #1446
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You cannot really predict the result of a 20-20 game.
We couldnt have predicted India would win it while in case of 50-50 world cup we were sure India wouldnt win it unless a miracle happens or team strikes gold.
Or if I ask you a question, Who will win the match b/w Bangladesh and Australia in a one day game? Can you say with conviction.. Bangladesh
The Western Mind relies on predictability of its environment for its success. A few years back, ODIs were still as uncertain. Till they made a science of a sport and made it totally predictable.

They are not comfortable in an unpredictable environment - hence Gilly's comments. Theirs is a world of grids, rules, matrixes - see how the west turned hockey into large billards table and the asians lost out?

Give them time, and they will make 20/20 as predictable. Then they will win and keep winning by turning the game into a science.

I dont blame them for it - thats the way they can win, and they will do anything to win. The point is, there's no way we can win by trying to ape them - we need to play to our strengths and their weaknesses, not the other way around. Else our future in cricket = our hockey at present, not our hockey in the past.

And while berating our team lets not forget that we beat them in the game before this - 20/20 or not. One loss is not the end of the world - stick with them.

Last edited by Steeroid : 3rd October 2007 at 14:36.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:02   #1447
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Hey man, tell me why are you making fun of India's T20 WC win when India lose to Australia in ODIs , while you maintain that T20 & ODI are different

Why do you say T20 WC celebrations are hollow? Didn't India get the WC in that form of cricket? Why should we not celebrate that

Note: As I see it, ODI involves a lot of singles. T20 requires boundaries & sixers. Both require different skills. The fact as of now is Australia lost T20 WC.

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Dude if you are hell bent on arguing, just for the sake of it... I give up!
The question is does it require as much skill as a one day match or a test match? And should this win be hyped and celebrated as much as it has? You know what all these celebrations are hollow, when we know that our beloved world champs would be steam rolled by Australia, playing at home.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:03   #1448
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Are you telling T20 doesn't require skill & talent?
So are you trying to say a T20 specialist will find his place into a ODI side or a test side? From where I see it from most of the teams, a good ODI player will mostly warrant a place in the T20 side than the other way round.

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Thats the beauty of T20, nobody knows who wins till the last couple of overs.
Bang on. Like you said, its a gamble. With those who get lucky winning. And those who don't loosing (like SA lost after just loosing 1 match). In a 50 over game each teams weakness is exposed. The team that makes the best use of this weakness wins.

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Gilchrist is looking at the wrong end and trying to offer a lame excuse for their loss in T20 WC.
I say, its your excuse to keep brining up the T20 topic because that is the only format of the game our guys have done well. So are you willing to bet your money that the T20 champs WILL win most of the T20 tournaments? Because I know the OZ's will win 80% of the ODI/tests. I wonder if we can say the same about our T20 team, yeah yeah given the fact that seniors WILL be out of this team.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:07   #1449
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
The Western Mind relies on predictability of its environment for its success. A few years back, ODIs were still as uncertain. Till they made a science of a sport and made it totally predictable.
While the above theory is true to an extent, it alone cannot be the reason for a team to be winning. Strategy in any sport is very crucial to the final outcome but what matters in the team playing the field, their talent and skill. So saying its only science doesnt suffice.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
They are not comfortable in an unpredictable environment - hence Gilly's comments. Theirs is a world of grids, rules, matrixes - see how the west turned hockey into large billards table and the asians lost out?
Give them time, and they will make 20/20 as predictable. Then they will win and keep winning by turning the game into a science.
In the end a win is all that matters and there's no excuse for losing.

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And while berating our team lets not forget that we beat them in the game before this - 20/20 or not. One loss is not the end of the world - stick with them.
Unfortunately this isnt T20.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:09   #1450
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So are you trying to say a T20 specialist will find his place into a ODI side or a test side? From where I see it from most of the teams, a good ODI player will mostly warrant a place in the T20 side than the other way round.


Bang on. Like you said, its a gamble. With those who get lucky winning. And those who don't loosing (like SA lost after just loosing 1 match). In a 50 over game each teams weakness is exposed. The team that makes the best use of this weakness wins.


I say, its your excuse to keep brining up the T20 topic because that is the only format of the game our guys have done well. So are you willing to bet your money that the T20 champs WILL win most of the T20 tournaments? Because I know the OZ's will win 80% of the ODI/tests. I wonder if we can say the same about our T20 team, yeah yeah given the fact that seniors WILL be out of this team.
Ditto..... well said!
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:15   #1451
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Hey man, tell me why are you making fun of India's T20 WC win when India lose to Australia in ODIs , while you maintain that T20 & ODI are different
Fun???? Where did you got this one from?

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Why do you say T20 WC celebrations are hollow? Didn't India get the WC in that form of cricket? Why should we not celebrate that
Hollow because to me its not cricket. While you hop and scream on India's WC T20 victory, when it comes to real cricket, real test of skill we are completely hopeless. You might think different and its your point of view and I complete accept it, accept mine too. Dont try and push it down my throat.

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Note: As I see it, ODI involves a lot of singles. T20 requires boundaries & sixers. Both require different skills. The fact as of now is Australia lost T20 WC.
So what happens to the same players when they play a 50 over game. Why cant they pull of sixes and fours like they do in T20, its their skill as you implied.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 15:55   #1452
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I never said that. Please read my posts again. Ask me, I will tell you. I never try to say, I just say
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So are you trying to say a T20 specialist will find his place into a ODI side or a test side?
Wonder why the greatest ODI player on earth didn't figure in T20 WC. Wonder why the greatest ODI team figured in T20 & lost. Anyway, if a T20 player doesn't make it to ODI, so what? Likewise, if an ODI player doesn't make it to Test, so what? Again, if a Test player doesn't make it to T20, so what? Each of these require different sets of skills, players with those skills excel in that form of the game.
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From where I see it from most of the teams, a good ODI player will mostly warrant a place in the T20 side than the other way round.
If Kenya, Scotland get lucky, can they beat Australia? Zimbabwe have beaten Australia in ODIs, before beating them in T20. Skills do matter in T20, but different than those seen in ODIs. If you are looking for ODI/Test skills in a T20 specialist, then all I can say is
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Bang on. Like you said, its a gamble. With those who get lucky winning. And those who don't loosing (like SA lost after just loosing 1 match). In a 50 over game each teams weakness is exposed. The team that makes the best use of this weakness wins.
We were discussing T20 before you joined in. If AUS win 80% of their ODI & Tests, let them win. If India don't, let them not.

India won T20 WC, I am happy. I don't crib that this was not real test of cricketing skills.

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I say, its your excuse to keep brining up the T20 topic because that is the only format of the game our guys have done well. So are you willing to bet your money that the T20 champs WILL win most of the T20 tournaments? Because I know the OZ's will win 80% of the ODI/tests. I wonder if we can say the same about our T20 team, yeah yeah given the fact that seniors WILL be out of this team.
Whatever you think, ICC, BCCI, players, public think its cricket.
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Hollow because to me its not cricket.
When Australia faced the real heat of T20 they lost. India faced the real heat of ODI in 2nd ODI yesterday & they lost. Why are you upset?
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While you hop and scream on India's WC T20 victory, when it comes to real cricket, real test of skill we are completely hopeless. You might think different and its your point of view and I complete accept it, accept mine too. Dont try and push it down my throat.
What happened to the same Aus team when they played a 20 over game?
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So what happens to the same players when they play a 50 over game. Why cant they pull of sixes and fours like they do in T20, its their skill as you implied.

Last edited by diabloo : 3rd October 2007 at 15:59.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 16:19   #1453
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Wonder why the greatest ODI player on earth didn't figure in T20 WC.
Whom might you be referring to?

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Wonder why the greatest ODI team figured in T20 & lost.
They like SA, NZ, SL didn't make much of this tournament in their own right justification. Not necessarily one that we agree to. But as I said earlier, tough luck played its part, specially with SA. NZ who didn't think much of this game and came unprepared % did play some good cricket. Maybe they just didn't find this tournament to be taken too seriously. And they paid for it.

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Anyway, if a T20 player doesn't make it to ODI, so what? Likewise, if an ODI player doesn't make it to Test, so what?
I was wondering if a T20 player has the SKILL why is it only restrained to T20 and not ODI cricket? Just in case, I don't understand why all these players are just managing to clear the ropes while they kept hitting boundaries over 100 mtrs in T20? What happened to that skill now, why isn't it being used? The point I am trying to prove is that not all T20 players will play well in ODI. But almost all ODI players will play well in T20. A fact that has been proven by all teams.

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We were discussing T20 before you joined in. If AUS win 80% of their ODI & Tests, let them win. If India don't, let them not.
I am wondering WHY are we discussing T20 when its done & over with? New format, new game. Stick to it. But some of them here HAVE to go back to the miraculous win. WHY? Are we that stuck up with that win that everytime we loose we use it as a fail safe to justify why we lost?

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India won T20 WC, I am happy. I don't crib that this was not real test of cricketing skills.
I am happy too. But going onto say that the same players need to play in the 50 over game too, fab 3 need to be dropped, India won in T20 so retain the same team is unfair. As you only rightly mentioned different formats of the game require different sets of skill. Let the team playing now show its skill. If I were you, I would really judge the strength of the playing 11 and our bench strength only after the series Down Under. Not till then, on our flat sub-continent pitches unless its a test match.
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Whatever you think, ICC, BCCI, players, public think its cricket.
Unfortunately it is. Though you must also be aware that they will sell ANYTHING just to keep the viewership intact & please us (those who don't want to waste a day or 5). It needn't necessarily be the right thing. In 10 years time we will see a T5 cricket. In those days maybe IT will be CRICKET. But heart in heart even you know what a T5 will be. A joke IMO.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 16:21   #1454
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Wonder why the greatest ODI player on earth didn't figure in T20 WC.
Says who, Most of them were there, including ponting.

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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Wonder why the greatest ODI team figured in T20 & lost.
It was not a humiliating defeat neither an early exit, it was semi-final for god's sake. Besides a world champion cannot be decided in the no. of games India played to be crowned world champs.... goes to show how serious were ICC about cricket when they scheduled this tournament.
And this wasnt the first and last T20 world cup, going by the hysteria and money that has come in, ICC might just make it a yearly affair just to keep some people happy and to bring in the crowds.

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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Anyway, if a T20 player doesn't make it to ODI, so what? Likewise, if an ODI player doesn't make it to Test, so what? Again, if a Test player doesn't make it to T20, so what? Each of these require different sets of skills, players with those skills excel in that form of the game. If Kenya, Scotland get lucky, can they beat Australia? Zimbabwe have beaten Australia in ODIs, before beating them in T20. Skills do matter in T20, but different than those seen in ODIs. If you are looking for ODI/Test skills in a T20 specialist, then all I can say is
So is T20 about skills or slogging? Most of the test players are also in the ODI teams of their respective countries and T20 too.


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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
India won T20 WC, I am happy. I don't crib that this was not real test of cricketing skills.
So am I but that doesnt makes me a blind supporter of the Indian team, hard facts will always remain.

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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Whatever you think, ICC, BCCI, players, public think its cricket.
BCCI is a private body and its only criteria is to make money, cricket or not, same goes for players, as long as money is coming in they are happy while they make you believe its cricket only. I am certainly not amused.

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Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
When Australia faced the real heat of T20 they lost. India faced the real heat of ODI in 2nd ODI yesterday & they lost. Why are you upset?
What happened to the same Aus team when they played a 20 over game?
Dude it was a single match, no wonder BCCI announed a reward of 1 million $ just for beating Australia... A lottery which India team won!

Last edited by extreme_torque : 3rd October 2007 at 16:22.
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Old 3rd October 2007, 16:28   #1455
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So fellows,

Whats up ?
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