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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:21   #16
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Interesting.

I like the contours.

a. The government has again washed its hands off its job and is instead forcing private unaided institutions.
b. Atleast earlier the government spent tax money on education and roads - now it is only for subsidising god-knows-who
c. I agree with the angle from Samurai - the possibilities for misuse and harassment of schools is tremendous. They will now be subject to intense interference.
d. I have another angle. I'm not quite sure how the weaker sections are divided. Delhi is full of shopkeepers who earn <1 L on paper but 2-3cr+ annually in cash. These actually rich people will tomorrow manage the "random selection" as required for their family!
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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:24   #17
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LOL, I went to a school that was run entirely on Government grants. Lots of rich spoilt idiots and poor sincere guys. Does the school think that rich kids don't smoke or harass girls? Don't believe in reservations (According to the Government, I would be classified under OBC, but never plan to bring that up anywhere during my studies or work), but this kind of bigoted thinking shouldn't be expected from a school. Then again, private schools are notorious for big fees, so their line of thinking probably justifies their actions.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:29   #18
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
WE pay taxes. Don't we? Shouldn't govt be making schools instead of forcing private individuals to run institutions the way govt wants.
After all these are unaided schools right? What right does govt had in meddling?
Very valid point, and the ONLY valid argument against the act. However, valid, but not irrefutable.
Govt. can do what it wants, because it is the sovereign. This is nothing but added tax on schools (and schools have nothing to cry about. They evade enough taxes. Go through their income statements if you can)
Yes, ideally the government shouldn't have any right to tax either. It is nothing but extortion. But, constitutionally does it have the right to? Yes, it is the sovereign. In general, in a democracy, taxation is justified by saying that it is in the interest of the common good.
Second, your point about government building schools. That is a MASSIVE waste of funds. Public distribution system in India is completely broken. Only way out are such PPPs. It would have been fair to the schools if they got some additional tax benefits though.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Tomorrow, govt will tell me that I need to keep 3 people of their choice in my home.
That's a strawman. Not the same thing at all. In the RTE act, the government is essentially using its right to tax. In your example, the government is infringing upon your right to own property.
Sadly, there are parties in India who would even implement that tax. Thankfully, both the big political parties are not from North Korea, and economically more or less equally capitalist.

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Just another way for the administration of this banana republic to shake hands of its duty. Just put the burden on "pvt institutions" and thats it.
I actually support less government. Every government office is broken. I strongly believe that most should be privatized. 20 yrs back, people believed that telecom was something that was the government's prerogative.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:40   #19
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e1tbet, I do not agree with your argument.
Firstly, govt has the right to tax. Well then it can remove tax benefits for "unaided" schools and use that money to set up schools. In the west govt runs public schools, and there are pvt schools which coexist. The so called elite, have a choice to go to either public school, or to private schools.

Secondly, you called my argument the only valid argument, I guess you missed Samurai's argument. Will the 25% admitted under special quota be subject to same discipline etc., as the rest?

Supporting less govt is fine, but there are some things which govt has to do. For example, public transportation, education, and healthcare. If you throw social needs to pvt organization, you end up with a machinery which has only profit as its motive, and rightly so, since the duty of every pvt organization is to maximize profit for its shareholders.

Regarding the strawman, well I did a little hyperbole, but its very similar to forcing pvt companies to reserve jobs under "Right to Jobs" act or something the govt may deem to pass.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 23:42   #20
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It always beats me. The government that can run IITs and IIMs very successfully
Because IITs and IIMs are not literally run by the government. They are only owned and financed (partly) by the government.

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cannot get to run good schools and regular colleges to give the socially challenged and economically challenged a better start.
Doesn't work for schools because schools simply cannot get autonomous administrators as good as those in IIMs/IITs. Someone as capable as an IIT director, won't head a school. Second, IIT/IIM profs, and the institutes, earn a LOT through consultancy. No one is paying a dime to a school for consultancy.

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With good governement and aided schools, the number of private schools in the country should have been very few. But then today it is a business that rakes in billions of rupees.
"Should", that is the key word
The roads should have been better, government hospitals better, public transport better.. I can go on forever.
Honestly, I am much happier if a Ratan Tata is calling a shots than a randomly elected Laloo or Mamata.

I might sound condescending, but the biggest bane of this country is the credulousness and short-sightedness of the electorate (includes the literate ones as well). Most vote for policies that work against their own interests
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Old 4th August 2010, 01:02   #21
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Firstly, govt has the right to tax. Well then it can remove tax benefits for "unaided" schools and use that money to set up schools.
Yes it can, but will it be as effective?

How many schools are you going to build on 30% tax on income, and 10% serv. tax? That too when all these institutes majorly fudge their books. Why unnecessarily spend on buildings when there is existing infra? If one has to tax, tax efficiently.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
In the west govt runs public schools, and there are pvt schools which coexist. The so called elite, have a choice to go to either public school, or to private schools.
The elite still have the choice to go to an elite school. What you are trying to imply is that there should be some schools which are for "upper income homes only! Anyone else will not be allowed"

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Secondly, you called my argument the only valid argument, I guess you missed Samurai's argument. Will the 25% admitted under special quota be subject to same discipline etc., as the rest?
Based on anecdotal evidence, I can tell you that poor kids who come in through sponsorships in schools, at present, are subject to the same discipline.

The act clearly says that the quota is restricted to kids between 6-14 yrs of age. If a school can't discipline kids that young, they should shut down.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Supporting less govt is fine, but there are some things which govt has to do. For example, public transportation, education, and healthcare.
Yes, there can be decent public options for social needs. No harm in that. I didn't say "ALL" should be privatized. But if PPP works, no harm in it.

A case in point would be Gujarat's Chiranjeevi Yohana. It is a system where private hospitals HAVE to treat pregnant women below BPL. The government compensates the hospital in return. Classic example of maximizing benefits out of tax-payer's money. Use private infra, but bear additional costs of the private institute. A lot more efficient than going around building hospitals, and let babus, constructors, and everyone imaginable collude and steal the tax payer's money.
This is where I see a major flaw in the RTE. The 25% reservation costs that the school bears, should be compensated to a larger amount. That though, is very different from saying "some schools for the elite only!"

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
If you throw social needs to pvt organization, you end up with a machinery which has only profit as its motive, and rightly so, since the duty of every pvt organization is to maximize profit for its shareholders.
That argument is a little ill-informed (no offense intended). Yes, a firm's objective is profit. However, the buyer's objective is to maximize his own benefits. Costs eventually settle at a point (the free market price), where the buyer is able to justify the cash he spends for the benefits that he gets. Otherwise the buyer goes to another seller, or goes for a substitute.

Besides, there are other serious flaws in the public-only model. In pure econ. terms, such a model always results in "deadweight losses" and non pecuniary costs for the entire society. i.e. consumers pay a higher price for inferior products, the company still makes losses.
To add to that, the non-tangible costs are heavy. Britain,most of EU and Canada for eg. are known for long queues in their NHSs. Not to mention, their services are inferior to what a Wockhardt provides in India. Can you imagine having to wait, and endure two weeks of kidney stone pain because the patient's condition isn't as critical as others in line, and there aren't enough resources available? It is astonishing, and appalling, when you consider their income levels. I am not saying "remove public options". However, private players should be allowed.


Second, there are benefits of profit. The biggest one is efficiency. The government has the right to provide as many services as it can. However, if my tax is being spent on inefficient, loss-making, corrupt to the core organizations, I have a few questions to ask.
When most people say privatization, they don't mean that a Tata should issue people passports. What they want to say is, there is no harm in avoiding the long queues and outsourcing routine jobs like paper-work and submission of forms to a private party. The government can, and should, always have the final say on who gets the passport or a driver's license.

To sum up, the bill is far from perfect. Schools should be compensated a little more than the vouchers and the marginal tax benefits (they will get some more tax benefits, I am sure). Kids less than 6 yr old should be incorporated in the system as well.
However, the entire "your kids will go bad" argument is just inhuman and wrong! Kids don't spoil kids.

@others: Please don't equate it to caste and religious quotas and benefits. They are not admitting a poor kid into an IIT. They are providing him the means, so that he can (on merit!)
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Old 4th August 2010, 03:00   #22
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What a law. The government can never go down ever again with this act. Now I know why there are so many Indians who have migrated to different countries. For a better quality of life for them and their children.

Last edited by prince_pervez : 4th August 2010 at 03:10.
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Old 4th August 2010, 03:22   #23
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Now I have to get some certificates for my kids from some gram panchayats by paying lakhs of rupees. When I was in 10th I went to a not so good college but a school mate with lesser marks went to one of the elite colleges in Pune. Just because of a certificate not by merit.
My brother who passed out from IIT (K) recently encountered a similar case. A guy entered the prestigious institute and
decided it was not his cup of tea, and cancelled admissions after 3 weeks. My brother offered help but soon he knew
it was beyond his help. And so some other deserving candidate lost a chance.
Ohh by the way my friend who went to the elite and fun college is a hopeless drunk last time I got to know, and, I am billing in excess of 100 $ per hour for an MNC. Take that!

Last edited by prince_pervez : 4th August 2010 at 03:35.
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:13   #24
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I don't know about the certificates that you're talking about, but I believe they are caste certificate. Never believed in them and wouldn't think of a place where I need to show mine to use the facilities. From my PoV, these quotas are for leveling the playing ground for the people who have been oppressed for a long time by the society. So I do support so called "Quotas" in a way. But at the same time, they need to be on an economical need basis and, those who are well off financially, shouldn't be eligible for any quotas whatsoever.

As for the person, who dropped out of IIT, it's good that he realized his calling. Instead of wasting 4 yrs and making nothing out of it, 1 is good enough. And that seat will be back-filled, don't worry about that. I have known people who are in engineering colleges for yrs and not expelled for KT or quota reasons. Now doing a 4 yrs course in 6 yrs is no fun, is it?

Last but not the least, what is the big deal with 100$ per hour billing? Most mid-level IT professionals are being billed by their companies for around that much money. What's so special about it. Let's not bring up personal flavors in these types of serious discussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
Now I have to get some certificates for my kids from some gram panchayats by paying lakhs of rupees. When I was in 10th I went to a not so good college but a school mate with lesser marks went to one of the elite colleges in Pune. Just because of a certificate not by merit.
My brother who passed out from IIT (K) recently encountered a similar case. A guy entered the prestigious institute and
decided it was not his cup of tea, and cancelled admissions after 3 weeks. My brother offered help but soon he knew
it was beyond his help. And so some other deserving candidate lost a chance.
Ohh by the way my friend who went to the elite and fun college is a hopeless drunk last time I got to know, and, I am billing in excess of 100 $ per hour for an MNC. Take that!
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Old 4th August 2010, 07:23   #25
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“Government work is God's work” is inscribed on the karnataka legislature building. We have all grown very cynical of what the govt. can do these days. But if there is hope for this civilization, it is through government alone. This act is a great example of implementing socially-just policies by using the efficient private infrastructure. Very similar to providing healthcare through private hospitals.

Without access to private infrastructure (be it health, education) it is impossible for the poor to break into the mainstream. I mean no amount of merit, grit and determination will every help the son of a watchman who makes 3K per month. Is there any hope whatsoever for a child who comes from a family with monthly income of 3k?

If you trace the history of middle class, not too long ago, they were poor with 3k per month salaries but back then there was hope for these children because majority attended govt. schools and it was a level playing field. Not any more. Education is the greatest enabler and it has been completely hijacked by the rich and thus depriving the poor children of their last hope to get out of the gutter. How many of us have grown up listening the inspiring stories of our fathers, grand fathers who made it big in spite of their 3K income (inflation adjusted). Well, those stories don't happen any more.

There is saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Government is finally doing this instead of the endless subsidies, free housing and blah blah. I am surprised that many members are not in favour of this policy. Saying take our tax money and build schools for children (which govt. intends to do in rural areas) is akin to shooing a beggar away with one-rupee coin.
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Old 4th August 2010, 09:40   #26
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I think the motive of the government is fair in this case, I am not sure over time how it would be actually executed. The proof of the pudding lies in eating it, so we will have to give time, at-least 2 academic seasons in my opinion, to see how it pans out in terms of role of government, external interference etc. But I think the schools are trying to instill an unnecessary fear in the parents of the 75% kids for serving selfish needs.

Here in Tamil Nadu the government had decided to reign in the fees collected by Private schools under Matriculation system. The schools have started charging exorbitant amounts as "Text Book Fees" because they are not under the ambit of government recommended fees. I don't think the schools are saints themselves.

Let us give the system time before we get prejudiced.
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Old 4th August 2010, 09:43   #27
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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
Without access to private infrastructure (be it health, education) it is impossible for the poor to break into the mainstream. I mean no amount of merit, grit and determination will every help the son of a watchman who makes 3K per month. Is there any hope whatsoever for a child who comes from a family with monthly income of 3k?

There is saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Government is finally doing this instead of the endless subsidies, free housing and blah blah. I am surprised that many members are not in favour of this policy. Saying take our tax money and build schools for children (which govt. intends to do in rural areas) is akin to shooing a beggar away with one-rupee coin.
Beautiful points. No one will ever complain about the poor and under previledged trying to earn a decent living by the means best suited to the welfare of all the ranks of society.

Forget people outside but I have examples in my family who are a rags to riches story type. All from poor backgrounds but made it better than the people who wrongfully enjoyed government benefits and occupied places they weren't worthy of. The guys who were really worthy would have looked elsewhere and settled where they wouldn't have had to. Like what happened to me.

I really feel proud for all the people in and off the forum who beat the system including me and my brother who didn't accept to be bogged down by people who misused the caste certificate and achieved something satisfactory to us w/o flashing any certificates or similar crutches.

Lets listen to what Curtis Jackson of the 50 cent fame has to say about this:

My flow, my show brought me the doe
That bought me all my fancy things
My crib, my cars, my pools, my jewels
Look ... I got K-Mart and I ain't change

Only hard work No caste certificates. I sincerely hope that this gets implemented in a fair manner and only deserving candidates getting the better deal. I don't want children to suffer like most of me and my friends did.

On the other hand I feel exceptionally proud and happy for the countrymen who really deserved the certificate and made the most out of it for them and their families. I salute you.

For those who understand any bit of politics, you can't imagine where the government has lifted itself with this and where the price rise issue is gone now. No one is a saint but these guys have the sense to know that people do not want Reliance phones or Swiss bank revealations, just some burden off.

Last edited by prince_pervez : 4th August 2010 at 09:45.
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Old 4th August 2010, 09:58   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prince pervez
Only hard work No caste certificates. I sincerely hope that this gets implemented in a fair manner and only deserving candidates getting the better deal. I don't want children to suffer like most of me and my friends did
Very valid point; this is the future I'm trying to envision. This mistake is going to cost our future generation. Merit is one word that is missing in our country. The politicians will survive only when people are unable to think & they've identified the education to be one of the key factors & they want to shake it now.
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Old 4th August 2010, 10:52   #29
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I had a classmate who got 1st rank in electrical engineering in Bangalore University. This was an actual conversation:

Me: That's great Shekar, now you can get any government job you want. (then private jobs weren't that hot)
He: Yeah, that's true.
Me: So, why are you still looking sad?
He: Because when I join any government company, I'll be categorized under SC quota. Nobody is going to remember I deserved it by merit too.
If such people get admission/job using open category, they are ruining one open category seat. Also the reserved category seat will be given to reserve caste person. So in effect Open category suffer.

I hate India for this reservation game altogether. People are crazy about calling themselves from ST/NT and what not category. One of my friends got through free engineering seat scoring 45% and then I did not get any free seat for scoring 80%. I could not afford donation seat so could not do Engineering. My friend eventually after failing 2 years did BA in History.

This reservation thing is immensely damaging the whole nation, like a slow poison death. Imagine Doctors and engineers who are not smart enough but then getting through due to their caste.

I really wonder if this reservation thing is introduced in IT companies, how many MNCs would really like to setup operations here. This is just a one sector, there could be a ripple effect in other sectors as well. You should not get paid for your caste after all.
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Old 4th August 2010, 11:29   #30
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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
Yes it can, but will it be as effective?

How many schools are you going to build on 30% tax on income, and 10% serv. tax? That too when all these institutes majorly fudge their books. Why unnecessarily spend on buildings when there is existing infra? If one has to tax, tax efficiently.
so catch those institutes who fudge books. There is a law against book fudging, and the govt should catch those violating it.
Quote:
The elite still have the choice to go to an elite school. What you are trying to imply is that there should be some schools which are for "upper income homes only! Anyone else will not be allowed"
Nice try to twist the argument into haves vs have nots. Anyways, all I said was that pvt enterprise needs freedom from govt meddling.

Quote:
Based on anecdotal evidence, I can tell you that poor kids who come in through sponsorships in schools, at present, are subject to the same discipline.
Sponsorship and scholarship is different from reservations. If govt says, we will pay your fees if you cannot afford the school in your locality, I support the act. However the govt it putting the onus of supporting weaker sections on the pvt schools.
Quote:
The act clearly says that the quota is restricted to kids between 6-14 yrs of age. If a school can't discipline kids that young, they should shut down.
You are living in a dream world. In this country a group of 20 people can get together and start a dharna, and get some local biggies involved. Do you think its some kind of utopia we are living in

Quote:
Yes, there can be decent public options for social needs. No harm in that. I didn't say "ALL" should be privatized. But if PPP works, no harm in it.
If it works its a good thing, but quotas etc., are never the answer.
Quote:
A case in point would be Gujarat's Chiranjeevi Yohana. It is a system where private hospitals HAVE to treat pregnant women below BPL. The government compensates the hospital in return. Classic example of maximizing benefits out of tax-payer's money. Use private infra, but bear additional costs of the private institute. A lot more efficient than going around building hospitals, and let babus, constructors, and everyone imaginable collude and steal the tax payer's money.
What works in healthcare will not work in education. Moreover, in your example govt is paying the fees for the poor. The hospital is doing nothing. Just treating them as any paying patient.
Quote:
This is where I see a major flaw in the RTE. The 25% reservation costs that the school bears, should be compensated to a larger amount. That though, is very different from saying "some schools for the elite only!"
And the law will be passed with this flaw.

Quote:
That argument is a little ill-informed (no offense intended). Yes, a firm's objective is profit. However, the buyer's objective is to maximize his own benefits. Costs eventually settle at a point (the free market price), where the buyer is able to justify the cash he spends for the benefits that he gets. Otherwise the buyer goes to another seller, or goes for a substitute.
You never heard of monopolies and price fixing, have you? Travel a bit to remote places and see mobile connectivity there. Only where telcos have "profit opportunity" they will fit towers. BSNL, i.e. govt gives connections here. Ever tried to get a pvt players broadband connection in a not so well populated locality?
This is same all over the world, even in US, where many sparsely populated counties have option of just one provider, who can make any rules they deem fit without fear of competition. Monopolies and duopolies exist very much everywhere
Quote:
Besides, there are other serious flaws in the public-only model. In pure econ. terms, such a model always results in "deadweight losses" and non pecuniary costs for the entire society. i.e. consumers pay a higher price for inferior products, the company still makes losses.
Nobody is advocating full govt model. But there are some areas which are best done with mostly public spending. Education is one of them. Look at the education system in India. What a mess it is in, because even middle class(so called upper income households) have to face a tough time to get their children into school once they turn 4 or 5. This RTE will worsen the rot, unless govt can magically create additional seats.
Quote:
To add to that, the non-tangible costs are heavy. Britain,most of EU and Canada for eg. are known for long queues in their NHSs. Not to mention, their services are inferior to what a Wockhardt provides in India. Can you imagine having to wait, and endure two weeks of kidney stone pain because the patient's condition isn't as critical as others in line, and there aren't enough resources available? It is astonishing, and appalling, when you consider their income levels. I am not saying "remove public options". However, private players should be allowed.
Public investment, and govt investment does not mean you kick out pvt players. It merely means that they coexist. Its always the best model.


[/quote]
To sum up, the bill is far from perfect. Schools should be compensated a little more than the vouchers and the marginal tax benefits (they will get some more tax benefits, I am sure). Kids less than 6 yr old should be incorporated in the system as well.
However, the entire "your kids will go bad" argument is just inhuman and wrong! Kids don't spoil kids.
[/quote]
The biggest fear parents have is not "kids will go bad". Thats a fringe opinion. Because its so sensationalist, its always highlighted. People who do not qualify for this 25% quota have other worries. for example where will they put their children. What if school hikes fees for the rest of 75% to make up for the loss. what about the reduction in number of seats. Ask any middle class parents in Delhi about what they have to endure just to get a kid into school. What about their Right to Education
Quote:
@others: Please don't equate it to caste and religious quotas and benefits. They are not admitting a poor kid into an IIT. They are providing him the means, so that he can (on merit!)
Wait a few years and see the amendments which come into force.

This law will do nothing for the education system. It may improve literacy a little bit. Many schools push a particular political or religious ideology, and parents not confirming to them are still forced to get their wards into those schools because there is no independent secular govt school which has equivalent quality of education in many areas. However, there are some govt schools in some cities(eg chd), which actually provide very high quality education. Why can't those be replicated everywhere?
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