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Old 4th August 2010, 14:00   #31
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In most schools today the syllabus is covered at such a fast pace, that most students are expected to pick up the finer details at tuitions. How are these kids belonging to economically challenged society going to cope with that? May be a reservation in tuition classes also.

I am all in for reservation for economically weaker section, but then reservation based on caste/religion should go.

Also, since we are now going to directly pay for there education, should we not atleast get a wavier from education cess?

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Old 4th August 2010, 14:28   #32
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Originally Posted by amohit View Post
In most schools today the syllabus is covered at such a fast pace, that most students are expected to pick up the finer details at tuitions. How are these kids belonging to economically challenged society going to cope with that? May be a reservation in tuition classes also.
If you are saying that all kids in good schools need tuition, there must be something very wrong in the whole education system. I don't think that is the case here yet.
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Old 4th August 2010, 17:10   #33
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I'm bit confused now, isn't this act is about giving education to the poor who can't afford good education irrespective of caste/creed? [Correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding as my post is based on that belief only.] If that's so then why so much hue and cry against this bill? And for argument's sake that govt. should've done a better job in providing basic education (which they should) to everyone, but to get that system up and running they'll need some time, right? Say, it may take another 5-10 years. Now, within those 5-10 years where that poor bright kid will go for education? Or we are so interested to not let him get good education just because his parents can't provide that huge school fee of a good but private school? Or should we let him also go waste as they didn't have money to get education? Are anyone of us planning to sponsor for that kid for his education? If not then why we are going against the Govt. when they want that poor kid to get the education at the level he deserves?
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Old 4th August 2010, 17:52   #34
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
so catch those institutes who fudge books. There is a law against book fudging, and the govt should catch those violating it.
The govt. is unable to. We have one of the worst tax enforcements records in the world.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
The so called elite, have a choice to go to either public school, or to private schools.
This is what you categorically said.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Anyways, all I said was that pvt enterprise needs freedom from govt meddling.
And not this!


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Sponsorship and scholarship is different from reservations. If govt says, we will pay your fees if you cannot afford the school in your locality, I support the act. However the govt it putting the onus of supporting weaker sections on the pvt schools.
I made that point already. The govt SHOULD compensate the schools for the 25% reserv thing, to a whatever extent it can
On the same note, the final act is not out yet.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
You are living in a dream world. In this country a group of 20 people can get together and start a dharna, and get some local biggies involved. Do you think its some kind of utopia we are living in
Or are you being too cynical? I have seen a bunch of schools with poor kids studying with middle class kids, and even the richest in town. Everyone has to follow the same disciplinary norms! Yes, there would be dharnas if a kid is not granted admission, or abused (very common in Indian schools). Fully justified!

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
If it works its a good thing, but quotas etc., are never the answer.
What do you propose? More government schools?
(1) The government doesn't have enough funds to build as many schools.
(2) The 6% fiscal def. and inflation makes it even less implementable.
(3) Even if points 1&2 were invalid, there is still a bigger point. Pool of teachers available. Government schools (most) have horrible teachers. It makes more sense to spend less money, send a kid to a better school.
(4) Quotas are bad when they are in conflict with meritocracy. Not otherwise.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
What works in healthcare will not work in education.
Why?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Moreover, in your example govt is paying the fees for the poor. The hospital is doing nothing. Just treating them as any paying patient.
The HRD has promised compensation of the costs. Where the money would come from, and to what extent the costs would be covered is still not clear. The private school lobby is huge in India. There is no way that the government will get away by unbridedly taxing them.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
You never heard of monopolies and price fixing, have you? Travel a bit to remote places and see mobile connectivity there. Only where telcos have "profit opportunity" they will fit towers. BSNL, i.e. govt gives connections here. Ever tried to get a pvt players broadband connection in a not so well populated locality?
(1) How many monopolies exist in India? Let's see industry wise. FMCG: No. Telecom: No. Airlines: No. Automobiles: No. Consumer Durables: No. Banking/IT/Legal services: No. Hospitality: No. Healthcare: No. Pharma: No.
Retail : No.
(2) It is very unlikely that the market, on it's own, would naturally lead to a monopoly. In most cases, it is collusion between a big player (or a cartel in case of price fixing), and government, that leads to a monopoly. Chuck the govt. out, and that would be taken care of as well.
(3) About BSNL: Bharti won't go to a place 150 km from Raipur because it doesn't make business sense for them. Why? Because there are NO consumers. And by "no" consumers, I mean literally "no consumers". The only consumers are normally 1% of the population (eg. the richest farmers). So, when BSNL sets up a tower in the village, it basically uses the tax payers money to sell its products to rich farmers at a HUGE loss!
The good thing about profits is, if there is ANY opportunity, someone will break in.
It is the same thing that happens with subsidized electricity, fuel, gas, water etc etc. The rich farmers use the free electricity to pump out water for themselves. People with a BMW consume subsidized diesel. The public options, and the subsidies rarely help the poor. It eventually becomes socialism for the rich.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Nobody is advocating full govt model. But there are some areas which are best done with mostly public spending. Education is one of them.
Back it up. The evidence is against this claim. Private schools provide better facilities, have lower dropout rates, have lower teacher absenteeism etc.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Look at the education system in India.
For a country that is 60 years old, and missed the industrial revolution, it is marvelous. Indians have one of the highest average scores on most internationally accredited aptitude tests (SAT/GRE/GMAT) and certifications (CFA/FRM etc). No country newer than us produces better engineers, doctors, scientists, managers...
Yes, everyone doesn't get a share of the pie. But that is a symptom, and the cause is not the education system. The fundamental causes are two. First, we are a poor country, and secondly because of our stupid economic policies from 47-91.
I cant even imagine how bad education would have been if most schools were public.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
What a mess it is in, because even middle class(so called upper income households) have to face a tough time to get their children into school once they turn 4 or 5. This RTE will worsen the rot, unless govt can magically create additional seats.
Because the middle class is hell bent on sending their kids to the best school (perceivably) possible. We love ranking educational institutes. Don't send your son to a DPS RK puram. Try securing admission in an affiliated xyz vidyalaya next to your home. It is extremely easy.
Parents tend to shrug off responsibilities by sending their kids to the most expensive schools. Most of our premium ug/pg institutes are full of people from very unknown schools.


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
People who do not qualify for this 25% quota have other worries. for example where will they put their children. What if school hikes fees for the rest of 75% to make up for the loss. what about the reduction in number of seats. Ask any middle class parents in Delhi about what they have to endure just to get a kid into school. What about their Right to Education
Show me ONE middle class family where the kid is not going to any school because no school had vacancy!
It's a hassle because this is the algorithm that parents follow:
(1) make a list of schools, arranged rank wise (complete based on perception)
(2) Start trying from no. 1
(3) If they have money, they settle at rank x < n, by paying donations.
(4) If they don't have money, settle at n.

The interesting thing is, the child's interests are not even considered. Why not just make sure that a school is affiliated, and send the child there? Schools hardly make a difference. Comparing teachers from different schools is equally retarded. Teachers in all schools in the country are ignorant, and equally bad!
So many IITians actually quit their schools in 11/12, go off to Kota and study in some random school affiliated to an arbit board. (all run by coaching institutes like Bansal.)

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
This law will do nothing for the education system. It may improve literacy a little bit.
A <0.5% annual increase in the literacy growth rate translates to ~100% literacy rate by 2030. Of course, achieving that 0.5% is a huge task, and requires a policy like this.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Many schools push a particular political or religious ideology, and parents not confirming to them are still forced to get their wards into those schools because there is no independent secular govt school which has equivalent quality of education in many areas.
Disagree. Parents send their kids to missionary schools, and other religious schools, because all they care about is the brand value. It doesn't matter to the parent whether the kid is being taught secular-humanist values.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
However, there are some govt schools in some cities(eg chd), which actually provide very high quality education. Why can't those be replicated everywhere?
Because the govt is broken. Chd might be an aberration.
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:15   #35
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Originally Posted by kaushik_s View Post
I'm bit confused now, isn't this act is about giving education to the poor who can't afford good education irrespective of caste/creed? [Correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding as my post is based on that belief only.] If that's so then why so much hue and cry against this bill? And for argument's sake that govt. should've done a better job in providing basic education (which they should) to everyone, but to get that system up and running they'll need some time, right? Say, it may take another 5-10 years. Now, within those 5-10 years where that poor bright kid will go for education? Or we are so interested to not let him get good education just because his parents can't provide that huge school fee of a good but private school? Or should we let him also go waste as they didn't have money to get education? Are anyone of us planning to sponsor for that kid for his education? If not then why we are going against the Govt. when they want that poor kid to get the education at the level he deserves?
The objection is not against giving education for the poor but the manner it will be implemented. The fear is that, once admitted, the schools won't have any power to discipline those kids. There needs to be proper guidelines for these and should not become like govt employees under reserved category who can't be touched no matter what.
Also, how will the govt compensate the schools for the 25% cost? Either it will mean more taxation or the schools would themselves have to make up by increasing the fees for the remaining students. In both cases, the working middle class would suffer.
Finally, there is question of selecting the 25%. Like someone said, there are shopkeepers in Delhi, with income on book of about 1L while the actual income is some 2-3 crore . Do you think, we should subsidize the education of their children?
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:19   #36
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Below mentioned are some of the clauses of the rules with corresponding objections from schools and parents.

Main Objections

Draft Rule: Academic authority for the purposes of this act means Department of State Educational Research and Training popularly known as DSERT
Objection: Schools affiliated to ICSE and CBSE have different authorities. Introducing another authority will complicate the matter and dilute level of education. Two authorities may not be acceptable

Rule: School Development Managing Committees will have representation from elected members, local educationists etc.
Objection: May dilute the authority of schools. Further the act gives enormous powers to SDMCS on all aspects of schools administration including financial aspects, school development plans, enrolments, recruitment of teachers, creation of infrastructures, review of performance of children, planning for remedial measures, organizing co-curriculum activities, which may not be healthy for the independent management of the school

Rule: In respect of reimbursements per child, under RTE, it will be the total annual recurring expenditure incurred by the state on elementary education in respect of all schools established, owned or controlled by it or by the local authority divided by the total number of children enrolled in such schools
Objection: Schools as per the act should be content with this kind of reimbursement irrespective of the cost they incur to maintain the state-of-the-art infrastructure they have created through huge expenditure in the past. Further, the act specifies that schools shall not collect any other fee other than what they received from the government

Rule: Schools have to make available facilities like free uniform, textbooks, midday meals and free schoolbags as applicable to government schools
Objection: When these facilities are not extended to other students, how can these be given to students under RTE category? Further, even if the government is willing to reimburse this cost, it may not be matching with the kind of facilities private schools prescribe with regard to textbooks and other material which is of high quality entailing higher expenses

Rule: Government will prescribe age-appropriate syllabus, books and other materials
Objection: How is this possible when schools have their own prescription on books and learning materials? Any attempt to bring down the standard to suit age-appropriate levels will affect the standard of remaining 75% of students in a class

Rule: Schools shall maintain a record of all children in its jurisdiction through a household survey from their birth till they attain the age of 14
Objection: This charter of duty may be out of the authority of teachers in private schools. They cannot be involved in any duty other than teaching children

Source: TOI
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Old 4th August 2010, 18:36   #37
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Originally Posted by e1t1bet View Post
The govt. is unable to. We have one of the worst tax enforcements records in the world.
Well then what makes you think govt will able to manage this act
Quote:
This is what you categorically said.
Quoting out of context... Do you work for the media by any chance
Quote:
I made that point already. The govt SHOULD compensate the schools for the 25% reserv thing, to a whatever extent it can
On the same note, the final act is not out yet.
Well let it come out then. when the egg hatches we will see what the chicken is like. Going by the genetics, it has a good chance to be demented.

Quote:
Or are you being too cynical? I have seen a bunch of schools with poor kids studying with middle class kids, and even the richest in town. Everyone has to follow the same disciplinary norms! Yes, there would be dharnas if a kid is not granted admission, or abused (very common in Indian schools). Fully justified!
Do you really think everyone will be subject to same disciplinary norms? This is the major opposition against quota. And this did not appear out of thin air, the populace has a history of quota abuse

Quote:
What do you propose? More government schools?
(1) The government doesn't have enough funds to build as many schools.
(2) The 6% fiscal def. and inflation makes it even less implementable.
(3) Even if points 1&2 were invalid, there is still a bigger point. Pool of teachers available. Government schools (most) have horrible teachers. It makes more sense to spend less money, send a kid to a better school.
(4) Quotas are bad when they are in conflict with meritocracy. Not otherwise.
LOL the citizens are supposed to make up for govts incompetence.

Quote:
The HRD has promised compensation of the costs. Where the money would come from, and to what extent the costs would be covered is still not clear. The private school lobby is huge in India. There is no way that the government will get away by unbridedly taxing them.
The money will directly or indirectly come from other 75%, with no accountability. Thats another worry, as some other posters have mentioned


Quote:
(1) How many monopolies exist in India? Let's see industry wise. FMCG: No. Telecom: No. Airlines: No. Automobiles: No. Consumer Durables: No. Banking/IT/Legal services: No. Hospitality: No. Healthcare: No. Pharma: No.
Retail : No

(2) It is very unlikely that the market, on it's own, would naturally lead to a monopoly. In most cases, it is collusion between a big player (or a cartel in case of price fixing), and government, that leads to a monopoly. Chuck the govt. out, and that would be taken care of as well.
(3) About BSNL: Bharti won't go to a place 150 km from Raipur because it doesn't make business sense for them. Why? Because there are NO consumers. And by "no" consumers, I mean literally "no consumers". The only consumers are normally 1% of the population (eg. the richest farmers). So, when BSNL sets up a tower in the village, it basically uses the tax payers money to sell its products to rich farmers at a HUGE loss!
You seriously need to go out of raipur or whatever. In lots of remote areas almost every household owns BSNL mobiles.
Many other villages have satellite phones PCOs set up by BSNL. Cost 2rs/minute, so the villagers are not cut off from their families
Quote:
The good thing about profits is, if there is ANY opportunity, someone will break in.
It is the same thing that happens with subsidized electricity, fuel, gas, water etc etc. The rich farmers use the free electricity to pump out water for themselves. People with a BMW consume subsidized diesel. The public options, and the subsidies rarely help the poor. It eventually becomes socialism for the rich.
Now how did subsidy and infrastructure creation have become same. Tomorrow you will say, do not build roads in remote areas, because only rich farmers have cars to travel

Quote:
Back it up. The evidence is against this claim. Private schools provide better facilities, have lower dropout rates, have lower teacher absenteeism etc.
I can say the same for your rants


Quote:
For a country that is 60 years old, and missed the industrial revolution, it is marvelous. Indians have one of the highest average scores on most internationally accredited aptitude tests (SAT/GRE/GMAT) and certifications (CFA/FRM etc). No country newer than us produces better engineers, doctors, scientists, managers...
Yes, everyone doesn't get a share of the pie. But that is a symptom, and the cause is not the education system. The fundamental causes are two. First, we are a poor country, and secondly because of our stupid economic policies from 47-91.
I cant even imagine how bad education would have been if most schools were public.
1 billion + people, no wonder you will produce many scientists and engineers etc., What % of the populace get to be that GMAT or whatever topping class? You sound like those who say XX number of Indians are super rich, so India is very rich, you forget that those XX will be a very small percentage if we talk percentage numbers, not absolute.

Quote:
Because the middle class is hell bent on sending their kids to the best school (perceivably) possible. We love ranking educational institutes. Don't send your son to a DPS RK puram. Try securing admission in an affiliated xyz vidyalaya next to your home. It is extremely easy.
Parents tend to shrug off responsibilities by sending their kids to the most expensive schools. Most of our premium ug/pg institutes are full of people from very unknown schools.
Citation needed please. Even XYZ vidayalay today is very difficult to get in tier 1 cities

Quote:
Show me ONE middle class family where the kid is not going to any school because no school had vacancy!
It's a hassle because this is the algorithm that parents follow:
(1) make a list of schools, arranged rank wise (complete based on perception)
(2) Start trying from no. 1
(3) If they have money, they settle at rank x < n, by paying donations.
(4) If they don't have money, settle at n.
Everyone does so. You get best healthcare/education/lifestyle etc., you can afford
Quote:
The interesting thing is, the child's interests are not even considered. Why not just make sure that a school is affiliated, and send the child there? Schools hardly make a difference. Comparing teachers from different schools is equally retarded. Teachers in all schools in the country are ignorant, and equally bad!
So many IITians actually quit their schools in 11/12, go off to Kota and study in some random school affiliated to an arbit board. (all run by coaching institutes like Bansal.)
And you say our education is good. Contradict yourself much?

Quote:
A <0.5% annual increase in the literacy growth rate translates to ~100% literacy rate by 2030. Of course, achieving that 0.5% is a huge task, and requires a policy like this.
In its current form, it will not do much. Thats the option
Quote:
Disagree. Parents send their kids to missionary schools, and other religious schools, because all they care about is the brand value. It doesn't matter to the parent whether the kid is being taught secular-humanist values.
I never mentioned missionary schools. I am talking about normal schools. Depending upon the owner, the schools will have a bent. It starts with the morning prayers(some schools have religious morning prayers of some particular religion etc.,)


Quote:
Because the govt is broken. Chd might be an aberration.
And you expect the broken govt to create an unbroken law.

Anyways, I will state you my reasons for opposition
1. Extra burden on the 75% - Remember, us middle class is always milked. A war happens, put a war tax, games happen, put a games tax, education problem put an edu cess. There is no accountability and the govt keeps milking the salaried class.
2. Quota politics - When there is quota, there is politics. It will enter this also. Past history
3. Shirking responsibility- I pay govt taxes, I expect it to do its job. Not pass it on. Public private partnership is good when it comes in through voluntarily, for example road building. Private players build roads and have a stake. Not by some law

That said, I am done with the argument. These are my views, I am entitled to them. You are entitled to yours, and I will not call them wrong, I would just say I do not agree. So we can agree to disagree here.
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Old 4th August 2010, 21:38   #38
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Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
The objection is not against giving education for the poor but the manner it will be implemented. The fear is that, once admitted, the schools won't have any power to discipline those kids.
Is there a clause like that in the draft? Or is it just some speculation to make this controversy alive? Discipline won't be a problem if schools are going to/allowed to discipline everyone equally I believe. And we shouldn't really equate this situation (kids getting education) to some Govt. employees(grown up people earning money) who got inside the system with the help of quota. We are talking about KIDS getting education and a bright future here.

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Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
There needs to be proper guidelines for these and should not become like govt employees under reserved category who can't be touched no matter what.
Completely agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
Also, how will the govt compensate the schools for the 25% cost? Either it will mean more taxation or the schools would themselves have to make up by increasing the fees for the remaining students. In both cases, the working middle class would suffer.
Again speculations. Lets actually see how this compensations will come from. I guess we are already paying education cess kind of things and that might cover up for this (again speculations from my side)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
Finally, there is question of selecting the 25%. Like someone said, there are shopkeepers in Delhi, with income on book of about 1L while the actual income is some 2-3 crore . Do you think, we should subsidize the education of their children?
Now, there are always few rotten fishes who will try take advantage. But for these handful of people should we put a brake on someone's future by denying him education?

And those opposing the bill, can people try to come up with some better ideas than this proposed idea for upliftment of the economically backward class to provide better education?


EDIT: Just one thing hit my mind while reading the posts. Most of the private schools are in or near a City, so I would also like to know what the Govt is thinking about doing for the kids who lives in rural areas or areas which doesn't have a private school? Does this right to education law have something for those people also? Just wanna know.

Last edited by kaushik_s : 4th August 2010 at 21:43.
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Old 5th August 2010, 01:12   #39
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Ponnappa's cartoon on the subject in TOI today

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Old 5th August 2010, 01:43   #40
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Originally Posted by kaushik_s View Post
Is there a clause like that in the draft? Or is it just some speculation to make this controversy alive? Discipline won't be a problem if schools are going to/allowed to discipline everyone equally I believe. And we shouldn't really equate this situation (kids getting education) to some Govt. employees(grown up people earning money) who got inside the system with the help of quota. We are talking about KIDS getting education and a bright future here.
My info is from newspapers. I hope you are correct, but don't expect that.

Quote:
Again speculations. Lets actually see how this compensations will come from. I guess we are already paying education cess kind of things and that might cover up for this (again speculations from my side)
See Vasoo's post above. The govt will come up with a figure per child irrespective of the school.

Quote:
Now, there are always few rotten fishes who will try take advantage. But for these handful of people should we put a brake on someone's future by denying him education?
Take the reservation as an example. Do you feel that the majority of the people who take advantage of it really deserve it? No one is talking about denying education. But it shouldn't be at the cost of others.

Quote:
And those opposing the bill, can people try to come up with some better ideas than this proposed idea for upliftment of the economically backward class to provide better education?
In the 4th August TOI, I read that for the CW opening ceremony, they are getting a helium balloon for a rent of 50 crores (yes you read it right) per day.
Now, as per CRY, you need Rs.1800 to sponsor the education for a child for an entire year. Even if you round it off to 2k per child, you can educate 2.5 lakh children with this 50 crores. Food for thought?

Last edited by Jaguar : 5th August 2010 at 01:44.
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Old 5th August 2010, 08:21   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguar
No one is talking about denying education. But it shouldn't be at the cost of others
+10000000...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
Now, as per CRY, you need Rs.1800 to sponsor the education for a child for an entire year. Even if you round it off to 2k per child, you can educate 2.5 lakh children with this 50 crores. Food for thought?
+1

Like wise, there're several things in this country that are mismanaged. Think about the crores of money spent on each parliament session only to get cancelled till mid of the day & then rest of the day. Why carry it out at all?

Think about the money that is being payed as penalty at the airports due to flight delays.

One thing for sure is, highly mismanaged & the law is passed in this country only on things that are easy to control while the root of the problems are not fixed.
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Old 5th August 2010, 08:44   #42
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The RTE act is good but obviously it shows that the Government has admitted that it is has failed to provide basic education to it's people and that too since independence. The educaion outlay has continually decreased since independence when it was 7.8% of GDP to the present abysmal 3.5%. Even Kenya has much higher education allotment than our country.

Now the failure apart this step could do some good to the poor people who want their kids to get at least primary education. The statistics itself justifies this step- there are hundreds of public/private schools for every govt school. But since the government is talking of quotas here the private schools are entirely justified in their fear about govt interference in the schools functioning. The Govt messes up wherever they set they foot and this could be no different so the private schools need to ensure that there is a clear line beyond which the govt has no say.

How they work out this quota and the funds needed should be clearly sorted out or this could be another financial disaster waiting to happen with hundreds of crores spent without any significant benefit and later withdrawn.

I still feel that Government should handle the education for the masses itself not abdicate the responsibility to private concerns.
And now what will happen to the education tax and cess we are paying year over year?
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