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Old 24th September 2013, 18:48   #316
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

Thank you all for reassuring me that we do have a matching algorithm in place, I am an old fashioned guy who preaches centralization for a living hence I guess I am walking my talk.

I am sure most of you are enjoying the benefits of the new age banking systems wherein you can withdraw you cash from any branch of the Bank. Your signature retrieval is possible be'cos of a centralized system.

Coming back to Aadhar card and its effective usage, the key point here is not storing the data but retrieving and using it effectively when needed,

Some points for discussions with you folks in today's age; for instance, how will this algorithm work in REAL TIME mode, what if we need to authenticate an Aadhar card .. .will we ask the bad guys to wait for 4 weeks till we authenticate.? or is the Aadhar card only for GAS subsidies.?!!

or what happens to a person's Bio metrics when he/she expires.? is there any way of preventing bad people from using his identity?. How do you retrieve and audit a person's documents to verify.

Without digressing from the subject, in my humble opinion without some of the above features, the main use of the Aadhar card is lost as there is no real value for it.
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Old 24th September 2013, 18:50   #317
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by Deep Blue View Post
Would it have been easier and cheaper to add biometrics to the existing PAN or Passport database than create a whole new rigmarole? Those not having either could start new ones simultaneously. Everybody may not need a passport but PAN could be made compulsory. These systems atleast have undergone some beta testing and are more robust and efficient.
Great point Deep Blue, Question is about the usage how and when. Does the Big blue have any solutions for this.?!
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Old 24th September 2013, 19:04   #318
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Great point Deep Blue, Question is about the usage how and when. Does the Big blue have any solutions for this.?!
How would Deep Blue know what solutions does Big Blue have for Aadhar?

BTW, I didn't know IBM is involved in Aadhar implementation.
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Old 24th September 2013, 19:20   #319
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Originally Posted by shivshanker View Post
Great point Deep Blue, Question is about the usage how and when. Does the Big blue have any solutions for this.?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
How would Deep Blue know what solutions does Big Blue have for Aadhar? BTW, I didn't know IBM is involved in Aadhar implementation.
The only use I see, as of today, is to harass a honest tax payer some more so as to convince him to leave the country for good.
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Old 24th September 2013, 19:56   #320
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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How would Deep Blue know what solutions does Big Blue have for Aadhar?

BTW, I didn't know IBM is involved in Aadhar implementation.
@Samurai, I guess I tried to put 2+2, the handle "Deep Blue" was too tempting to pass.

Yes .. IBM is not involved with the Aadhar implementation.
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Old 24th September 2013, 20:28   #321
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Would it have been easier and cheaper to add biometrics to the existing PAN or Passport database than create a whole new rigmarole?
No this couldnt' have been done, because those ID numbers are specific to a department or service. UID / Aadhaar is designed as an identification number alone. It has nothing to do with citizenship or address proofs. It is just an identity system. It just says if you are the person someone queried.

In future, but not yet, lets say you applied for bank account, the bank will scan your photo query the UID system if the name matches the picture. The system will respond with a yes or no. Same could be done with the finger print or retina scan.

It is just a verification system to check who you really are and not an impersonator.

The system will be open for other systems to query. I wouldn't be surprised if in future this system will be available for query on an open platform, so private companies (example HR) can also query to authenticate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saurabh2711 View Post
If you are worried that you won't be able to vote with wrong address don't worry.
Every city has a dedicated website, which displays the details of Voter ID's.
Thanks Saurabh. The addresses in the system are messed up. As per Voter records, I live in a nearby locality and I have some 17 people living in my house
So trying to get them fixed.

Last edited by HillMan : 24th September 2013 at 20:32.
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:00   #322
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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It has nothing to do with citizenship or address proofs. It is just an identity system. It just says if you are the person someone queried.

In future, but not yet, lets say you applied for bank account, the bank will scan your photo query the UID system if the name matches the picture. The system will respond with a yes or no. Same could be done with the finger print or retina scan.

It is just a verification system to check who you really are and not an impersonator.
Do we really need such an extensive verification system ? Retina scans and finger print verification for opening bank accounts, getting married !
We are running too scared I guess. Scared of what, god only knows.
Uncle Sam anyway seems to know of every mail and message I send.

The money spent on UID would have been better spent on creating some road/power and such other physical infrastructure for the country.
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:08   #323
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by HillMan View Post
No this couldnt' have been done, because those ID numbers are specific to a department or service. UID / Aadhaar is designed as an identification number alone. It has nothing to do with citizenship or address proofs. It is just an identity system. It just says if you are the person someone queried.
@Hillman, All agencies are government agencies, technically there is nothing stopping these Gov. entities to use any one of these unique ID's.

AU and the US Government entities are now working towards a unified platform for better surveillance and suspect tracking.

Surprisingly they are learning this from the Arabs states, as in all Arab states there is a Ministry of Interior, who controls everything from your Immigration status to your work permit to your Driving license car registration and so on. thereby becoming very easy to monitor people and avoid any frauds.

The DL is accepted as a valid form of Identification for most purposes.

Coming back to our Aadhar discussion, TWO of the Proofs accepted for Proof of Identity are the passport and the PAN CARD. The Passport is also accepted as a proof of residence to facilitate the Aadhar card.

So to get my Identity card, I have provided my passport as a identity proof that I am a Citizen of India, I would say that the world is definitely round.

The Aadhar card for identification alone, I do not agree is a completely true statement, but would state that this is the first step the Gov has taken to keep illegal immigrants at bay.

Last edited by aah78 : 25th March 2014 at 00:39. Reason: Quote fixed.
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:13   #324
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by Deep Blue View Post
Do we really need such an extensive verification system ? Retina scans and finger print verification for opening bank accounts, getting married !
We are running too scared I guess. Scared of what, god only knows.
Uncle Sam anyway seems to know of every mail and message I send.

The money spent on UID would have been better spent on creating some road/power and such other physical infrastructure for the country.
Illegal immigrants would be a long term strain on our economy and the tax payers, added to the security

IMHO the UID in its FULL FORM and GLORY is required to protect the citizens of India.

Better to be safe than sorry,
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:51   #325
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

But illegal immigrants too can get UID !

Our political parties will anyway provide them with voter IDs, BPL ration cards and what not to get them to vote for them.
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:53   #326
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Well, let's say it takes a millisecond for one comparison. And there are 10 fingers.

Total time taken check a duplicate (worst case) = 10 fingers x 1000000000 samples x .001sec = 115 days
Worst case scenario should be around 100 comparisons I.e. time complexity of O (log n). Note that system does _not_ compare fingerprints, it compares hashes of fingerprints.

To find duplicates among hashes, a simple binary search can be used. No need for O(n*n) algorithm.

I am sure, you used 1 millisecond for simplicity. Actually, Xeon x7550 that was released in 2010 can calculate Hash in 5 microseconds from fingerprint templates. And it should be able to compare two 256 bit hashes in 50 nanoseconds.

Quoting from UIDAI:

"A fingerprint scanner is an electronic device used to capture a digital image of the fingerprint pattern. This scan is digitally processed to create a biometric template which is stored and used for matching."

"They ABIS providers also do not store the biometric images (source), they can only store template for the purpose of de-duplication."

http://uidai.gov.in/biometric-devices.html
http://uidai.gov.in/images/FrontPage...jan21_2012.pdf

Last edited by NetfreakBombay : 24th September 2013 at 22:06.
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Old 24th September 2013, 21:53   #327
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

+1 to that shivshanker

The UID is a step towards identifying individuals. This will save a lot on the exchequer in coming years.

It will help eliminate duplication that itself is a huge saving.
With deep rooted corruption, I doubt a check on illegal immigration will be possible. But at least it is a step forward.

Recently there was a news of immigrants had leased couple acres of land in Kolar, Karnataka, for their settlement. And they all had local ration cards already.

UID as far as I have read around, is only an authentication system. Other services will have to integrate with it.

It will not take 4 days as calculated in one of the post to match .
These are based on algorithms and indexing. Large databases like these are also divided into multiple servers catering to a range of serial numbers. So at no point is the system actually scanning thru millions of records. Might take a few milliseconds to match the code and a few seconds to communicate the response back to the requesting system.

In a Bank ATM your pin is stored at your banks centralized server. Based on the card number, the ATM requests its host bank, which in turn reaches out to Visa or Master to find the authenticating server, then the connection is made to authenticate the pin, cash balance is checked and cash dispensed. All this happens in a few seconds.

EDIT: my post came late. NetfreakBombay thanks for the details.

Last edited by HillMan : 24th September 2013 at 21:56.
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Old 24th September 2013, 22:04   #328
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Worst case scenario should be around 100 comparisons I.e. time complexity of O (log n). Note that system does _not_ compare fingerprints, it comares hashes of fingerprints.

To find duplicates among hashes, a simple binary search can be used. No need for O(n*n) algorithm.
You can use binary search, only if you can create an unique hash. Every time the fingerprint is read, only 70-80% will be common. How do you create a unique hash? I want to understand that.
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Old 24th September 2013, 22:18   #329
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Every time the fingerprint is read, only 70-80% will be common. How do you create a unique hash? I want to understand that.
What #NetfreakBombay mentioned is valid. The biometric scanner feeds the image to the local (operators) system, the software then processes and looks for key features and converts them to a hash tag. the UID database can have multiple hash tags that are similar because of this. But then the name, date of birth, hash tags of fingers and retina will not find a duplicate entry.

Even if the UID database is hacked, I dont believe the hackers will get the images of biometric scans for replication. All they will get is the hash tags. You cannot make an image out of reverse engineering these tags.

The same is true for facial recognition as well.

Last edited by HillMan : 24th September 2013 at 22:20.
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Old 24th September 2013, 22:22   #330
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You can use binary search, only if you can create an unique hash. Every time the fingerprint is read, only 70-80% will be common. How do you create a unique hash? I want to understand that.
You don't do hashes. Fingerprints are processed into fingerprint characteristic data using the ISO 19794-2 template or vendor specific templates. When you want to compare against a input fingerprint, you first convert the input also into a template format. Then you narrow down based on the characteristics. Each characteristic would probably allow you to eliminate a huge chunk of fingerprints.

Fingerprints used to be compared manually without computers using a similar technique. Of course the number was smaller - fingerprints of criminals only. Now that we are all criminals, the number to be compared against is much bigger but we also now have computers to help us along.

Last edited by carboy : 24th September 2013 at 22:24.
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