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Old 25th September 2013, 11:20   #346
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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We have invented UID / Aadhar model... I am sure others will follow. Its brilliant cutting edge technology put to use in the worlds largest IT project.
@gsurya

10000% agree with you that we invented the "Aadhar card", a useless and baseless piece of paper.

Can you please elaborate on cutting edge technology, what do you find in this project that has bought the Indian ingenuity to the forefront.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:22   #347
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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
We were the largest democracy to use EVMs for voting.. now others are adopting it.
Citizens are opposed to EVM in many countries & hence it's stalled. EVM's are much easier to rig than doing a booth capture. Citizens in many countries are insisting on EVMs based on Open Hardware and Software and one whose code is audited and aren't ready to accept EVMs till then.
They also want a verifiable paper trail accompanying EVMs.
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We brought in IT services outsourcing revolution.. others copied it.
Do you mean offshoring or outsourcing? Because US used to outsource IT services much before India ever came into the picture. Have you heard of Ross Perot who was an independent Presidential candidate in the US in 1992 & 1996 (his contesting the elections split the vote & helped Clinton a lot in winning the elections both times). He started EDS (Electronic Data Systems) in the 60s which was a huge IT services outsourcing company.


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We have invented UID / Aadhar model... I am sure others will follow. Its brilliant cutting edge technology put to use in the worlds largest IT project.
Again we didn't invent a national ID. it's been there for ages. Hitler controlled the German citizenry by mandating national I.D. cards without which no one could obtain work, food or travel. The US tried to implement Real ID but aware citizens and organizations like ACLU killed it with the state government's help.

Last edited by carboy : 25th September 2013 at 11:23.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:24   #348
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
One of the academic papers discussing this approach : http://www.cedar.buffalo.edu/~govind...apr05_ver2.pdf
Not sure if this algorithm is in practice. But there are already techniques for fingerprint or any genetic hashing. One such algorithm is LSH (Locality-sensitive hashing). While UID has not made its algorithm public, LSH or a modified form it is a strong possibility.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:36   #349
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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UIDAI already says that they will make any scheme mandatory in any district only if penetration in that district exceeds 80%.
Unless the SC makes a complete about-turn, it is no longer optional to the UIDEA/UPA to make Aadhar mandatory. It is mandatory for them to make it optional.

And read this too: http://www.firstpost.com/india/food-...s-1130959.html

My personal take is that the Aadhar project is a solution in search of a problem. The project's only objective is to keep Nandan occupied, in my opinion. The way he and MMS have glossed or steamrolled over all objections/concerned raised convinces me that they do not have the best interests of the country at heart (MMS is doing the same thing again - by diluting the nuclear liability laws in India to favour American reactor/technology vendors).
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:41   #350
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Perf numbers from UIDAI for online authentication of biometrics:

"Average response time around 200 milliseconds or 295 concurrent requests/sec."

http://www.biometrics.org/bc2012/pre...ampa_v1040.pdf
@netfreak,

I would say this is a coverup statement issued that everything is working fine. A person's identity would not be ascertained only his/her fingerprints.

LOGICALLY, The person's name, Date of birth and some other fields along with the Bio metrics would have to be used to establish the identify.

The reason I say this is b'cos, at the end if all you have is a DB of biometic information without any personal information stored along with it, the data is meaning less.

Same way a stand alone test or a benchmark for finger print system response time is meaningless.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:45   #351
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Unless the SC makes a complete about-turn, it is no longer optional to the UIDEA/UPA to make Aadhar mandatory. It is mandatory for them to make it optional.

And read this too: http://www.firstpost.com/india/food-...s-1130959.html

My personal take is that the Aadhar project is a solution in search of a problem. The project's only objective is to keep Nandan occupied, in my opinion. The way he and MMS have glossed or steamrolled over all objections/concerned raised convinces me that they do not have the best interests of the country at heart (MMS is doing the same thing again - by diluting the nuclear liability laws in India to favour American reactor/technology vendors).
- SC order is an INTERIM order, while Govt presents its side of arguments, NOT the final order. I am sure Govt will present its case that UIDAI already says it has only mandated Aadhar for only SOME schemes ONLY in districts where 80% penetration is achieved.

- Nandan has Infosys stock worth 3000 cr. He didnt need to 'get employed'. Why doesnt the opposition say they will stop Aadhar project if in power if they really oppose it? Or is opposition only for sake of TV as it was Congress that envisioned this brilliant idea?

- Govt has already denied the rumors of diluting nuclear liability laws spread by some newspapers. How can any Govt dilute liability law ONLY for US while already having signed deals with France, Russia & Australia under the SAME law? Wont the other countries object?

Last edited by gsurya : 25th September 2013 at 11:46.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:57   #352
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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- Govt has already denied the rumors of diluting nuclear liability laws spread by some newspapers. How can any Govt dilute liability law ONLY for US while already having signed deals with France, Russia & Australia under the SAME law? Wont the other countries object?
Kudankular III and IV are stuck because of the law. The French deal may still go through. Aussie is for the fuel and not the reactors.
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Old 25th September 2013, 11:59   #353
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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- Nandan has Infosys stock worth 3000 cr. He didnt need to 'get employed'.
And I think that the Infosys stock benefits from Aadhar. For eg. if Banks using Finacle needs Aadhar number to be added to their Core Banking system - they will be paying Infosys for that. Infosys is probably doing/will do a lot of Aadhar related projects indirectly.
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Old 25th September 2013, 12:01   #354
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- SC order is an INTERIM order, while Govt presents its side of arguments, NOT the final order.
Correct. Hence my point about "about-turn" of SC. It is still binding on the government from the date of the interim order till the date of the final order.

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- Nandan has Infosys stock worth 3000 cr. He didnt need to 'get employed'.
I didn't say "employed" - I said "occupied". :-)

Incidentally - He is one chap who wouldn't get my vote (I understand he's planning to contest the upcoming elections from Bangalore).

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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
- Govt has already denied the rumors of diluting nuclear liability laws spread by some newspapers. How can any Govt dilute liability law ONLY for US while already having signed deals with France, Russia & Australia under the SAME law? Wont the other countries object?
They will. Other folks objected when the highly one-sided India-Abu Dhabi deal was signed too (it is also sub-judice now, I think).

And the way they have done this is simple. From what I understand - the liability law (to which many had objected, in the first place) makes it the prerogative of the installation operator to enforce the liability obligations. In this particular case, the operator is NPCIL, who is choosing not to enforce such obligations (NPCIL is a PSU; and the contract is cleared by the Union cabinet).
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Old 25th September 2013, 12:02   #355
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Kudankular III and IV are stuck because of the law. The French deal may still go through. Aussie is for the fuel and not the reactors.
Kudankulam 3 & 4 are being negotiated.. Russia has said they will cost double of 1 & 2, in part due to stringent liability law. But thats like insurance cost on any project.

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Last edited by Samurai : 25th September 2013 at 12:27. Reason: No politics. Rule #13
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Old 25th September 2013, 12:18   #356
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

Ok what exactly are we discussing here?
- Aadhar is privacy and civil liberties nightmare or not!
- Kudankulam reactors
- Hashes for identity verification
- Nandan Nilekani's Job Description and Salary Slip

Get back to one point people!

Basically UID program is going on without approval of parliament! In a country whose struggle of freedom derived a lot of drive and determination because one Mohandas Gandhi refused to give his fingerprints and get such an Identity Card from British Government in South Africa which led to evolution something called Satyagraha, I am much rather open to another struggle for civil liberties than submitting my fingerprints or Iris/Retina scans or whatever!
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Old 25th September 2013, 12:35   #357
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Basically UID program is going on without approval of parliament! In a country whose struggle of freedom derived a lot of drive and determination because one Mohandas Gandhi refused to give his fingerprints and get such an Identity Card from British Government in South Africa which led to evolution something called Satyagraha, I am much rather open to another struggle for civil liberties than submitting my fingerprints or Iris/Retina scans or whatever!
Everyone who has ever got a passport or ration card has put his fingerprints on paper which is lying around in unsecured files all around Govt offices.

Plus almost any local police officer could tap phones, cybercop cell could monitor emails, messages since independence.. only now we have something called CMS to bring some structure & framework to this. But already we hae little privacy to complain of Aadhar.

Aadhar is at least having biometrics in highly secured environment & servers stored in encrypted databases that can only be accessed by webservices.

There are many other useful things to do a Satyagraha on than a pathbreaking technology our Govt is using. And Govt is now indeed working on making a law for Aadhar. It wasnt needed as this can be done by executive decision.
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Old 25th September 2013, 12:40   #358
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Plus almost any local police officer could tap phones, cybercop cell could monitor emails, messages since independence..
Not legally as far as I know. They would require court orders for this. But thanks to Anti Terrorism laws and CMS, they can now do this legally. Again, I will donate to any organization who would fight for total abolition of all anti terrorist laws.
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Old 25th September 2013, 13:48   #359
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Everyone who has ever got a passport or ration card has put his fingerprints on paper which is lying around in unsecured files all around Govt offices.
Now there is talk of linking your UID for passports. You will have to sign an authorisation / waiver. The first obvious benefit!

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Originally Posted by Mohitkumaar View Post
Ok 1.
- Aadhar is privacy and civil liberties nightmare or not!
- Kudankulam reactors
- Hashes for identity verification
- Nandan Nilekani's Job Description and Salary Slip

2. Basically UID program is going on without approval of parliament! In a country whose struggle of freedom derived a lot of drive and determination because one Mohandas Gandhi refused to give his fingerprints and get such an Identity Card from British Government in South Africa which led to evolution something called Satyagraha, I am much rather open to another struggle for civil liberties than submitting my fingerprints or Iris/Retina scans or whatever!
1. Yes it was drifting somewhat.
2. Gandhiji was well over 150 years ago. Times have changed. I am sure most people going for a US Visa do not think twice about fingerprinting. Also, many countries now need an Iris scan for the electronic passport.

A firendly advice, do not travel to the Gulf, they need an Iris scan as part of the entry procedure.

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Last edited by Rudra Sen : 25th September 2013 at 14:17.
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Old 25th September 2013, 15:08   #360
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Default Re: Nationwide UID - will it work?

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Everyone who has ever got a passport or ration card has put his fingerprints on paper which is lying around in unsecured files all around Govt offices.
Hmm I do have a passport and yes they may have taken the fingerprints but:
1. AFAIK they passport forms are kept in hard copy, they are coleecting only 1 thumb impression, so is still not as easy for anyone to break into the RPO to steal the thumbprints. Imagine th load thy have to sift through to get to my print and do you think the govt official would have maintained the forms in usable condition. Given their track record I feel safe.

2. The passport is governed by an enabling act of Parliament and is thus constitutional. Aadhar has no enabling act so is currently ultra vires the Constitution. If we have a rule of law, we can not expect govt to publicly undermine it.

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Now there is talk of linking your UID for passports. You will have to sign an authorisation / waiver. The first obvious benefit!



2. Gandhiji was well over 150 years ago. Times have changed. I am sure most people going for a US Visa do not think twice about fingerprinting. Also, many countries now need an Iris scan for the electronic passport.

A firendly advice, do not travel to the Gulf, they need an Iris scan as part of the entry procedure.
As for waiver authorisation thing, we will cross the river when we come to it.

As for the sign Act thing, Gandhi may have been 150 years back (actually it was in 1907) but the basic tenets are civil liberties are stilll older but increasingly important.

My gripe is I should have a right to refuse. By forcing Aadhar for something as basic as marriage regn. (let us keep aside subsidies part for now) I think the GoDelhi and GoMaharashtra have overdone it.

Gulf I know is civil liberties nightmare anyway and yes America asks fingerprints for visitors, but they are also independent sovereign entities where I will be an alien and thus not entitled to same rights as citizens. Yes there are also people and organisations in these nations which are working on ideals of civil liberties. We do this as well. I understand that we do not live in utopia but turning the country in a police state, that I am absolutely against.
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