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Old 24th February 2008, 12:36   #61
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Once i was travelling in a DTC bus and there were a group fo schoolgirls going to their school, not older than 10 yr olds. There was another grp of uncles...all with greying hair and aged more than 40 - basically they would have daugthers the age of these school girls.

these guys were standing close to these children and were speaking in the most filthy language...they didnt say anything to these girls and were talking amongst themselves...but i was shocked to hear the language - cant even imagine what impression it would have left on those young minds. Would have liked to see these kids replaced by the uncle's daughters and then see them using this kind of lingo.
Looks like this is a favrourite pastime of oldies in DTC buses. I witnessed similar scenes 25 years back when I was studying in Delhi Varsity. Every sentence begins with a reference to one's sisters anatomy... I need not elaborate.
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:40   #62
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I completely agree with you. Ahmedabad, and actually Gujarat as a whole is very safe for women folk. A woman can travel at 12 in the night and be still safe. Cities like Chennai, Bangalore are full of 'porikki pasanga' (rowdies basically) who ogle and whistle and do all sorts of crap when a women is going around alone. And the rubbing in the bus , disgusting. No wonder a whole lot of women these days are buying their own modes of transport.
Vizag is another safe city. I'd lived there for 21 years and found many single women, bedecked in jewels, driving home alone after a night show.
Even my wife drove 28 kms to the railway station at 2 am to pick up her mom and return thereafter
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Old 24th February 2008, 14:48   #63
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In delhi - i can say its 100% true. And its not some goondas who behave like this - its common folks.
An english girl at work was planning on backpacking in a few countries. I suggested she do India as well.

Some of the perverted caht she got from guys in Delhi was totally disgusting. Things like "do you use a condom"..."what size is your bra". What an utter disgrace, it is time these perverts were taught to behave with others as their behaviour is 100% wrong and they give our country a bad name.
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Old 24th February 2008, 19:31   #64
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Blue Thunder I totally agree with this. The way the case was shown on TV was wrong where they just said the MD is being arrested but he was arrested because of negligence on his part to see that certain rules framed were to be followed. This was tightly fought as HP actually didnt come in front and distanced temselves from the case when it happened by claiming that the vehicle belonged to a transport company.

Anyone remembers the Bhopal gas tragedy. Along with union carbide the MD of the company was also booked for criminal negligence. So basically what is happening in your comany is your responsibility as a leader. This is the message that the supreme court is trying to convey to people so dont get it wrong!
The closest parallel i can draw to this is SOX compliance. When the head of the company signs against the book of accounts he vouches that it is right (though numerous folks in his/her company do the work). Based on this the investors either invest or divest stock. Similarly, there are some rules and regulations and the head of the organization vouches that those rules will be adhered to. If not, holding them responsible forces additional checks and balances into the system to ensure that the boss does not get embarrassed or go to jail. OTherwise as in this case, the folks down the line take the chalta hai attitude and innocent folks get affected. These symbolic acts (such as indictment of Martha Steward, Enron, VW execs) remind everyone of their duties and responsibilities. This happens in the bureaucracy to a certain extent - with CBI and Loy Ayukta in karnataka, but the politicians always go scott free..
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Old 24th February 2008, 23:36   #65
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I am sometimes aghast at the way people behave and feel ashamed to be an Indian.
well, only yesterday I was having this discussion with my wife on bringing up our children (US/India).

though we don't have a daughter yet, I concluded saying I would prefer (in the worst case) my daughter going to the prom, making out with guys and getting pregnant at 16 in US, than living under archaic society rules, and getting raped and murdered in a public train in India. She will be safe, happy and confident in living her life rather than suppressed and tortured.

On the other hand, my wife thought bringing her up in India would be better because she will live under society rules () and grow up concentrating on her studies and be a good girl. And almost every woman in have talked to in my life has the same view.

This only reinforces my view that Indian women choose this hell because they don't want to be independent, in charge of things, and even run errands at house. (expressed here (Shameful Incidents in Mumbai on New Year's eve - Gateway of India NOW JW Marriott) )

PS:Apart from discussing an Indian woman's mentality, my post has nothing else to do with India/US discussion or any other psychological complex. Please don't even expect me to respond on those issues. Also, it does not mean that if our girls start behaving like spoilt American girls, they will be saved. I only mentioned the consequences of being in America, not the remedy for violence against women. it's a complex social equation with many other variables involved.

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Old 25th February 2008, 00:34   #66
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All labour acts hold the chief executive accoutable for violations, unless he can prove that he had given an express order to one of his direct reports to follow the rules under the act , and that order was not complied with.
That wouldn't be difficult I guess. Lets see who is the fall guy in this case.
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Old 25th February 2008, 10:37   #67
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VivekinY2k, these are one of incidents thats happening in India considering the volume here, the percentage would be very very low even if it happens on daily basis. It depends on chances of your worst fear becoming a reality in US, based on which one needs to take a call
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Old 25th February 2008, 10:57   #68
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PS:Apart from discussing an Indian woman's mentality, my post has nothing else to do with India/US discussion or any other psychological complex.
but @surprise, it's not about statistics. it's about seeing your loved ones living in constant fear all the time.
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Old 25th February 2008, 11:00   #69
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... ... On the other hand, my wife thought bringing her up in India would be better because she will live under society rules () and grow up concentrating on her studies and be a good girl. And almost every woman in have talked to in my life has the same view.
Your wife, of course, has a good, secure family life --- but she only has to open her newspapers to see that millions of women in India do not, and that abuse, rape and domestic violence are as common here as they are anywhere in the world.

India has done a great PR job to cover these things up, just as my mother country used to do in my youth (men beating women? teenagers having sex? abuse of children? Not here!). I don't know where it comes from, it seems to be a sort of unspoken agreement on all sides to sweep these things under the carpet.

But the media is doing its job now. These things are getting publicity, and that is the first step to them being dealt with.

The first reaction is that it didn't used to happen, that it is something new; something imported from America; something in the music kids listen to; etc (I'm talking about UK in the 1950s/60s, not India, but doesn't it sound familiar?).

From there on, its a long hard road, and perhaps it has no ending. Children are still raped in my country, and women beaten by husbands everybody in the community thinks of as fine, gentle men, despite the fact that the media has been doing its job for decades now.

But, my view as an outsider says there is still a difference. There is a difference in the level of possible threat, for instance, that I feel walking down the street and encountering a bunch of 12-year-olds. I'd rather do that in Chennai than in London.

But, again a view as an incomer: its changing. And of course, I find myself joining the generation that says, it's imported from America; blame the films/music/etc.

Just rambling here...
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Old 25th February 2008, 11:03   #70
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That wouldn't be difficult I guess. Lets see who is the fall guy in this case.
It may be difficult to prove this, esp in pvt sector or IT industry, where most directives are verbal. On the contrary, most orders in Govt and PSUs are written, and this evidence comes in handy in such distressing situations.
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Old 25th February 2008, 11:09   #71
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Your wife, of course, has a good, secure family life --- but she only has to open her newspapers to see that millions of women in India do not, and that abuse, rape and domestic violence are as common here as they are anywhere in the world.
nope, she has seen and encountered these things first hand. else my first step would be to educate her.

still she prefers that to an american upbringing.

and that's what makes me think whatever we have been discussing is totally useless.
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Old 25th February 2008, 11:57   #72
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nope, she has seen and encountered these things first hand. else my first step would be to educate her.

still she prefers that to an american upbringing.

and that's what makes me think whatever we have been discussing is totally useless.
actually US is not a society where i would bring up my kids either.

We should strive to be like some of euro countries (norway, denmark etc) where crime is really low and ppl respect each other.
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Old 25th February 2008, 14:19   #73
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nope, she has seen and encountered these things first hand. else my first step would be to educate her.

still she prefers that to an american upbringing.

and that's what makes me think whatever we have been discussing is totally useless.
Then I can understand your difficulty in communicating on this one.

My Indian wife has seen and experienced a lot that one would not wish on anyone too: she still loves her country (which is good, because that means I get to live here) and certainly has no wish to live in mine, though she enormously enjoyed her visits. If she was to bring up another family (we're too old) she'd choose India.

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I concluded saying I would prefer (in the worst case) my daughter going to the prom, making out with guys and getting pregnant at 16 in US, than living under archaic society rules, and getting raped and murdered in a public train in India. She will be safe, happy and confident in living her life rather than suppressed and tortured.
There is certainly more than one view of this, and you might well be over-estimating the safety of of USA.

One American friend of mine lives near the college where, last week, a young, popular, seemingly normal student entered a lecture theatre, with guns, and opened fire, killing and injuring many. OK, these events are not common in USA, but not unique either.

The relative freedom of the "West" where sex is concerned puts kids under a lot of pressure to do what they may not actually want or feel ready for.

Anyway, India is opening its economic and cultural arms to America. I'm horrified. Remember what my Brit ancestors did to India? You don't think Walmart is going to be even better at it than the East India Company was? (kind of random example there). No need to travel; USA is coming here.
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Old 25th February 2008, 19:38   #74
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There is certainly more than one view of this, and you might well be over-estimating the safety of of USA.
Of course, I was only discussing attitude of indian females towards not rising up for their own safety. everything else I said was used as circumstantial evidence, and has often been overzealous to emphasize the point.

Last edited by vivekiny2k : 25th February 2008 at 19:54. Reason: zealous!
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Old 25th February 2008, 20:01   #75
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amohit, let me try to explain : the MD is not being arrested because somebody in the company committed a crime : he was arrested because certain statutory orders (relating to the safety of women working late hours) were not followed in the organisation. One of the points to be adhered to is that if a female employee is being dropped off at late night by a cab, there has to be male colleague present (who will b be dropped off laast) or a security guard has to travel in the cab (in case there are no male colleagues leaving at that hour). In this case, the victim was the last person to be dropped off and there was no security guard present in the cab. For this violation, the police have arrested the MD.
Guys,

We are here discussing a gruesome crime committed against a hapless woman. Please at least read the media article (Link available in the opening post). This girl was kidnapped, raped and murdered by a stranger claiming to be a replacement driver, when she was going to work - not when being dropped. The strangest part is that her regular driver called her 10 mins later. But this phony replacement somehow managed to convince her regular driver that he was asked to pick her up. Facts to be considered in this case are:

1. Why did her regular driver not call the company and verify the story of the rapist/replacement driver?

2. Why did the victim not call her husband when her regular driver called her?

3. Why did the company not call the victim's house when she did not turn up for work?

4. What is the point in arresting the MD for not following safety regulations of providing a security guard in the cab? The victim was picked up by a phony driver in a phony cab which was not even arranged by the company? So what do they expect - provide a security escort in a cab that was not sent by them?

Cheers,

Rajan
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