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Old 31st January 2011, 11:37   #46
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Angry Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
In today’s news papers says there are some acquisitions that the late commissioner demanded bribes dont know what is truth read on The Pioneer :: Home : >> Accused in Sonawane murder case allege he demanded bribe
These allegations are bound to surface now post the incident. If that was the case then the alleged killer should have approaced the ACB long time back instead of taking a drastic action at the spur of the moment. In any case no one gave the accused an authority to take some one's life.
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Old 31st January 2011, 12:37   #47
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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I just said that things are getting better.
Things are getting better only for a certain class of people. Even in cities there is a huge discrimination. The divide is creating incidents of mugging and xenophobia in our cities.

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The fact is things won't change overnight and definitely not thru an upraising. You need sustained interest of people in policy making for a definite change. This change will happen over decades. Till that time we have to make sure that we go in the right direction.
And I agree. Thing is the getting part is not exactly correct. Things are getting better only because the markets opened up. Competition has made things better for us. But some sectors are still controlled by the government.

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Scams happens because of lack of education and connectivity of the citizens.
Scams happen because of corruption.

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Only if all of us and i believe the bhpians are more enlightened than ordinary everyday indian citizen really become interested in policy making at the national/state/local level and starts making our voice heard.
Voting is the above? Isnt it?

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I am not putting blinds on and i am genuinely concerned. but just don't think spreading more negativity all around will help in any way.
The negativity is due to the holistic view. Improving the lives of one society at the neglect of others is not wise. We move out of our mobile phone network coverage and things go south.

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By the way, all of you should come to some of the villages in kerala. I believe that kerala has a much better standard of living than rest of india for majority of it's citizens. Why is this? This is because of education. If you are concerned about the way india is going maybe you should start contributing in cash and kind to some of various educational initiatives which run in this vast country of ours.
Try and find out where the money is coming into Kerala? Industries? Tourism? or the expats?

We have a similar situation in Goa, no industries, no infrastructure but there is money. Why? Every household here has a person abroad.
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Old 31st January 2011, 13:44   #48
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

@SpirFire.
Things are getting better for a certain class of people. I agree.Generally most of the people in this class are educated and able to make use of opportunities that globalisation throws up. i can proudly say that nobody in my family is corrupt but we are doing much better than what we were some 10 years back.

Scams happen because voters/officials are unaware of the full picture and not involved in decision making. It's lack of education and connectivity in my book.

Getting involved is not the same as voting. Voting is a 1 day activity and is one of the baby steps for getting involved. Getting involved is something more sustained. It means understanding the various issues and supporting one party or the other. It means helping the better party come to power by helping them in cash and kind.It also means understanding the local undercurrents be it in terms of religion/caste/language etc and making sure that you are not damaged by those undercurrents and steer those undercurrents in a positive direction.

About kerala, a lot of money comes from Gulf/expat remitances but things are changing substantially for the better. IT industry/Banking has taken off in a big way in both cochin and trivandrum in case you are not aware. if you are educated and smart you don't have to leave kerala to find a job. This was not the case say 10 years back. One more reason why i believe things are getting better.
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Old 31st January 2011, 15:40   #49
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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Originally Posted by vishnurp99 View Post
well i said things are changing for the better because when i take a holistic view it's definitely become better for me... But I believe that India is becoming better and when my employer ran after me offering to initiate a green card for me to stay in US on top of my H1 i didn't have to think twice to come back to india.
Very happy and comfortable in a warm and fuzzy cocoon, aren't we? Perhaps we need to stop and think about THE REAL PRICE THAT THE NATION IS PAYING so that we can enjoy these comforts and luxuries sitting in the comfort of our living room. Behind all these services and luxuries is a deep, dark world brimming with corrupt netas and babus, a sophisticated and complex system of bribes and kickbacks that has allowed all these multinationals to bring these services to your door-step in the first place. 2G scam anyone? I BS you not, the kickbacks paid by all these service providers to policitians and officials are being recovered by them from none other than our very own pockets. After all, there are no free lunches in this world.

You can sit back and enjoy the latest breaking news on your latest cutting-edge 3G phone/I-Pad/whatever thingamajig you own, and enjoy some buddy-banter with your "connections" while ignoring the harsh realities that lie outside your door. But just because you are enjoying all the comforts and luxuries in life does not mean that all is hunky-dory. Care to ask your maid-servant/driver/gardener/milkman/paperboy whether things are changing for the better? After all, it is the poor who pay the heaviest price of corruption. I recently heard our house-maid saying that it is near impossible to buy kerosene from the PDS shop, as it is always "out of stock" and in "short supply". She has to pay more than twice the government price for it and buy it from the "black market". Any guesses where this black-market kerosene came from? We can see the realities on the ground only if we care to take our heads out of the clouds.

This reminds me of the famous quote "If they don't have bread, let them eat cake."

Are you trying to prove some point by saying that you refused a green card being offered to you on a platter?

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Sorry to break your bubble, but you are a typical city yuppiee. Who doesn't look beyond his nose...

...Air tickets?? Just for a comparison my budget ticket from Bangalore to Goa one way is equal to the six months of salary paid to a teenager who supplies our newspaper and then goes to a public school.

An optimistic, forward looking view is good but with horse blinds on?? Not really...
+1000.

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@Spitfire. i am no city yuppie my friend. Have seen my share of villages. Sure there are lot of places that need to get better in india. Not just india but all over the world. When i was in chicago i went to a black suburb and believe me it was a bit like dharavi which i have seen in pics...

...This is because of education. If you are concerned about the way india is going maybe you should start contributing in cash and kind to some of various educational initiatives which run in this vast country of ours.
We got the point that you have stayed in the US. Chicago and Dharavi? Where did that come from? Please don't try to compare apples and oranges. Incidents like the one being discussed rarely take place in the US, and when they do, the repurcussions are so swift and painful that the next guy dare not repeat the same crime.

There is a thin line between negativity and criticism. Calling a spade a spade is not negativity.

I have been to Kerala, albeit as a tourist, but I'm sorry to say that it is ages behind other states as far as industrialization and development is concerned. The communist regime there is solely responsible for this. People are willing to go on strike at the drop of a hat. Tea estate workers are exploited and made to work long hours with below minimum wage pay. I could go on and on, but suffice to say that as long the communists have a strangle-hold on the state, things are not going to change much.

As for education, I feel the educated only use it to further their own corrupt interests. How many "educated" people do you see everyday, using their cellphones while driving? Did you read about the Madhya Pradesh IAS officer and his IAS wife who amassed 360 crores? In the current scam-ridden environment, it may not sound unusual, but the sad and bitter part is, the officer was "Commissioner of Economic Rehabilitation for Bhopal gas victims", and he allegedly siphoned off money from the funds meant for the same purpose. Thats like eating money sitting on the graves of the dead. Such people NEED to be put before a firing squad without the benefit of trial. But the benefit of democracy is that this case will go to our courts and will be fought inconclusively for years to come. Meanwhile, the accused will die of old age, and then the case will be closed.

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Originally Posted by kittigadu View Post
Mobile phones changed the way we live.
Guns will do the same. But every one should have one and sold like the phones...

... If the common man had shot the first guy who sold adulterated fuel, the mafia wouldn't have existed and so this thread.

Regards,
Krishna.
You have a valid point, but the basic problem here is that guns can be used (and are being used) to commit crimes. Adding guns to the mess is like adding fuel to the fire. It will result in absolute anarchy. Things will reach a point where there won't be anyone left to shoot.

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Originally Posted by San Phrangmung View Post
Every year hundreads of Army, CRPF and other para military personnel fall prey to both domestic and foreign enemy bullets and mines...

... To put it simply, the position India is today, one could brand it a thankless Nation to its citizens when it comes to a countryman sacrificing his life for the formers good...

...No one knows the pain of such a loss other than those left behind helpless to battle for survival alone.
The context is different. Army personnel lose their lives fending off an external enemy. It is a risk they have to take, and one they are fully aware of, when they enlist in the army.

Whereas, in the case in point, the government official was killed by his own countrymen, the enemy within. And that too over just a couple of barrels of stolen oil. That is what the noise is all about.

However, I fully agree with the thanklessness bit. The family members of the deceased have to face the harsh realities of life, after being abandoned and conveniently forgotten by the govt. The Manjunath case is a prime example of this.

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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Things are getting better only for a certain class of people...

...Voting is the above? Isnt it?

The negativity is due to the holistic view...

...We have a similar situation in Goa, no industries, no infrastructure but there is money. Why? Every household here has a person abroad.
Law and order is a basic necessity for any society to survive and prosper. Any amount of luxuries and services are of no use if people just start roasting each other alive or shooting each other for petty gains. I find the Taj attacks in Mumbai most relevant to this argument. Most of the victims (God bless their soul) were from the well-off section of society, their fancy cars and glitzy mobiles could not save them from the inevitable. Ultimately it was the non-functional law and order machinery in the state that failed to protect them. Mind you, what happened was extremely unfortunate, and I am not blaming the victims or their economic status for what happened. The point I wish to highlight here is that ignoring basic requirements like law and order and then talking about good roads, fancy cars and 3G mobiles is pointless. However better things may get for any section of society, without proper L&O, we are all sitting ducks.

Voting is just our way of making ourselves believe the delusion that we are somehow involved in the so-called democratic government and policy-making of this country. The only vote that counts is the one that paid for, not the ones that you and I give away for free. For the record, I do vote, and have been doing so since I became eligible to do so. But every time I vote, I realize that things have only gone from bad to worse. It really makes me think whether it's even worth the effort of going to the polling booth and wasting time there standing in line to perform this holy ritual.

Goa is like my native place, I have seen it up close and personal. More than the money that comes from Goans staying abroad, it is the money that tourism brings that makes the wheels turn. Apart from that, the mining industry, both legal and otherwise, churns out the crores for the govt. And last but not the least, it is the dubious businesses run by illegal immigrants and their Indian touts on the beaches that brings in a lot of moolah. It is this last aspect of Goa that has been in the news for much of the last two years, primarily due to the murders that started taking place with alarming frequency as a side-effect of this undesirable business.

Phew, what a long post. I hope you guys enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed typing it. This is just an intellectual debate. My apologies if I have offended anyone. Keep posting.

- Bullitt.

Last edited by Bullitt : 31st January 2011 at 15:42.
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Old 31st January 2011, 16:07   #50
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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To put it simply, the position India is today, one could brand it a thankless Nation to its citizens when it comes to a countryman sacrificing his life for the formers good.
We aren't thankless. Look we made millionaires out of fringe players like Rohit Sharma and we paid almost a lakh per ball to Ishant Sharma for bowling in IPL and you never know a certain S10 may becomes the richest sportsperson in the whole wide world or he already is?
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Old 31st January 2011, 16:33   #51
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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Any amount of luxuries and services are of no use if people just start roasting each other alive or shooting each other for petty gains.
I was talking about the luxuries weighing out the core issues. I agree with your post.

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Voting is just our way of making ourselves believe the delusion that we are somehow involved in the so-called democratic government and policy-making of this country.
But this was not what it was meant to be. We(the politicians and citizens) have today molded this weapon in such a way that its power is lost.

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Goa is like my native place, I have seen it up close and personal.
Goa "is" my native place. And being very close to the political, citizen and student scene there I have seen and being a part of the dirty underbelly of this place. Its so bad its not even believable. But that topic would be out-of-scope of this thread. Someday later maybe.

My point above was the similarities in the states of Kerala and Goa and the seemingly better way of life there.
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Old 31st January 2011, 17:11   #52
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

@bullitt The gc thing is not a big deal really and not very sure what point i could have proved by putting it there. I put it there in a matter of fact way to say that i believed in this country and it's systems. I know a lot of other guys who have done the same thing and lately it's become something of a trend with a lot of guys moving back to india because of the very good opportunities here.

Also please visit kerala again and find out that kerala is not one big tea estate where labourers are taken for a ride. Communist party is a business enterprise these days atleast in kerala. You will be surprised to know how much kerala has changed. I agree with your post about industrialisation not being up to scratch but we are catching up fast and lot of progress has already been made.

About education, what it will do is help people safeguard their interests. If everybody starts safeguarding their own interests, then that will be a good thing right. I know quite a few people from the so called lower classes(For eg my dad's peon's son who studied hard and is a doc now. We had a guy who used to do small electrical work in our area and his son has become an IT professional etc) who have been benefited. Education is the way to go.

Some of the slums in chicago are much worse than the ones in dharavi. I was given this information by a social worker who has worked in both these places and i trust him.

The Taj attacks in mumbai was a meticulously planned terrorist incident. Don't see that as failure of L&O. Maybe an intelligence failure but not L&O. From whatever accounts i have heard of ,the police folks and army folks did a commendable job after the initial shock and awe. Th

The above incident(Death of the commissioner) definitely calls for criticism no doubt. but don't think anybody would be justified to go on a rant about how nothing in this country works.

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Old 31st January 2011, 18:25   #53
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

I think we are past the point where we could complain about "nothing working in this country".

Now the rot has reached the last bastion of democracy: the Law.

When things come to the point where the keepers of the law and the ones who protect it are so corrupt that they fail to do their duty, we are staring anarchy in the face.

Look at it this way: at the very top of the democratic pyramid, we have mega-stupendous cases of corruption (a form of crime) like the 2G scam, CWG scam, Adarsh scam etc., while on the other hand at the bottom of the pile we have cases like govt. officials being burnt alive for doing his duty. In the middle of this chaos is sandwiched the great Indian middle class, like most of us. The irony is that at both these levels, the law is conspicuous by it's absence. It is this absence that encourages criminals and politicians to encourage and commit such heinous acts in the first place. So, as expected, the accused perpetrators are roaming scot-free, while the govt. conducts so-called "investigations" using it's own corrupt agencies. Everybody knows what the outcome is going to be.

Bottomline: there is no fear of the law.

To top all that, we hear news that even the judiciary and the court, the temple of the law, has not been spared from the ever-increasing web of corruption. We see news about judges being influenced and bribed. Today, the common man on the street is scared for his own life. Even petty incidents like road-rage are causing deaths. People do not think twice in fear before taking away the other person's life, as they feel they can get away with it. They think "if the local politician and goon can do it, why can't I"?

If this not a failure of L&O, I don't know what is.

Coming to the Mumbai Taj attacks, the question is not whether they were planned or not. What I wanted to highlight was the pathetic response of the law-enforcing agencies. So many more lives were lost just because they were not adequately equipped or trained to deal with the situation, resulting in a HUGE delay in giving a proper response to the terrorists. So many of the beat constables who responded had not fired a gun in years, and ultimately ran away in fear. These were the same blood-sucking termites that roamed around in jeeps, terrorizing the vendors and motorists for "hafta-vasooli".

Mind you, this was not the first time Mumbai has faced a terror attacks. They should have been prepared. It was definitely a failure of L&O. The intelligence failure is secondary.

Last edited by Bullitt : 31st January 2011 at 18:27.
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Old 31st January 2011, 20:55   #54
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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I think we are past the point where we could complain about "nothing working in this country".

Now the rot has reached the last bastion of democracy: the Law.
Bullit,
I totally agree with analysis, what scares is not the present but future anarchy, basis of civilisation is fear of law.There is big class in our society which is not afraid of law.
The middle class will not bother unless personally affected by it.The top class is untouchable by virtue of power,money and connections.While lower class does not have voice.Media also like where there is glamour (why sweat) and easy story.
It is the future that is scary.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 02:09   #55
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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@bullitt The gc thing is not a big deal really and not very sure what point i could have proved by putting it there. I put it there in a matter of fact way to say that i believed in this country and it's systems. I know a lot of other guys who have done the same thing and lately it's become something of a trend with a lot of guys moving back to india because of the very good opportunities here.

Education is the way to go.

Best part is i have connections in my local town/city/state which means that i am not unnecessarily harassed.

Some of the slums in chicago are much worse than the ones in dharavi. I was given this information by a social worker who has worked in both these places and i trust him.

The Taj attacks in mumbai was a meticulously planned terrorist incident. Don't see that as failure of L&O. Maybe an intelligence failure but not L&O. From whatever accounts i have heard of ,the police folks and army folks did a commendable job after the initial shock and awe.
I think the reason you came back to India is because of what you said in your previous post (highlighted in bold). You know you are above the law with your so called "connections", your 3G phone and what not. Nothing in the US would have enabled you to have that. And this is not what is called development and opportunities. With connections a person can do anything in India. You can kill people, siphon off crores, get your electricity meter fixed, use your jack to do absolutely anything and get away with it.

You are not seeing the BIG PICTURE. One of the primary reasons why the Police folks could not react in the Mumbai Terrorist Attack was because the guards at the Railway Station did not have the ammo to match the terrorists. Why? Because our corrupt ministers must have received kickbacks for buying outdated old cheap ammunition.

We all want our country to develop however development should be all round and not only for a few select people. And with the level of corruption this will not happen. If you have seen Rang De Basanti, well thats the kind of stuff that is needed. And trust me that will happen one day.

This is my personal opinion and apologies if I caused offence to anyone.

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Old 2nd February 2011, 14:37   #56
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Brabus E V12, You have misunderstood my post about the connections. They are not connections with the corrupt in govt which makes me above the law . but rather i am connected to the local population/local issues/speak the same language etc. I and my parents will know the elected representatives the same as a normal person who has stayed in that same city for say 20 years. Some of my neighbours/friends/relatives are in the govt and i have good cordial relationships with them. This is not because i have paid them money but because we have seen each other for the better part of say 10 years. These are not big guys that i am talking about like IAS officers or anything. Normal officers/clerks etc. In a nutshell if i go to a government office or government hospital I will not be seen as an outsider who
earns obscenely and hence can be taken for a ride if you get the drift.

The problem is that lots of folks especially in the metros are out of touch with the local population completely. They never make an attempt to connect and understand how things work. They expect things to work with first world effeciency in this 3rd world country.
The fact is that the right kind of connections can enable you to do all kind of illegal things anywhere in the world including US but i was not talking about those kind of connections at all.

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Old 2nd February 2011, 16:32   #57
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Default Re: Fuel Adultration!! Death of Commissioner

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Normal officers/clerks etc. In a nutshell if i go to a government office or government hospital I will not be seen as an outsider who
earns obscenely and hence can be taken for a ride if you get the drift.

The problem is that lots of folks especially in the metros are out of touch with the local population completely. They never make an attempt to connect and understand how things work. They expect things to work with first world effeciency in this 3rd world country.
The fact is that the right kind of connections can enable you to do all kind of illegal things anywhere in the world including US but i was not talking about those kind of connections at all.
LOL. You are saying that if clerks are taking bribe from others and not from you due to your "connections" with them, then others are at fault for not making connections? What do you expect. Go for diwali parties with the guy who does driving license test?
Corruption is not just monetary, its influence too. You have influence with the local "clerks" which allows you to get ahead in the line. You are as much guilty of corruption as those who pay bribe to get ahead in the line.
But remember, many of us are forced to pay bribe just to get our right. And when they protest, police arrests them. Read what happened with a NRI who returned to Noida, and was asked for bribe by the authorities for some petty work which was his right.
Maybe because he returned from west, he earns obscenely, and should pay up? thats what you are saying, right?
That said, for the roadside rag picker, you are sitting in front of a computer, so you must be earning obscenely, right?
Somehow your posts seem to be condoning use of influence and corruption. you seem to be advocating there is nothing wrong in paying a bribe as long as you get a good salary. I guess this is the mindset of all the clerks etc., you are reffering to as your influence?
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Old 2nd February 2011, 17:00   #58
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@tsk1979 I am not condoning anything but just saying how things actually work. Outsiders are always treated differently and you have to pay more to get things done. For eg the maid who comes and cleans my house in chennai charges me around 30% more than what she charges the other local folks in the same apartment. I don't think this is fair at all but that is how things happen. As a matter of fact i got so frustrated that i told her that i don't need her services anymore but see other families (Folks from north) in this same apartment ready to pay the premium.

Like i have said earlier, India the Nation itself is an alien concept to a large section of our population due to illiteracy or ignorance. It's important that we build up local connections at our place of stay so that we can help each other and get our things done without a lot of hassle. Over a period of time our institutions will become stronger and the cities will become more cosmopolitan and these local connections/contacts will not be necessary. But for now this is the only option.

Gargantuan scams of corruption are a totally different ballgame from this small time corruption/favouritism. I feel that our media is extremely sensationalist and run stories which are based on innuendo and suggestions without any real proof. So some of the figures which come out are hype but there is a genuine problem no doubt. The only thing is i don't believe in just going on and on about how these scams make this country not worth living in etc. There is corruption everywhere be it the west or the east. Enron and Lehmann happened in the US and i know folks whose fortunes/retirement funds were wiped out because of this. My best friend used to work for Satyam and i know what he went thru when satyam went bust. Corruption is a universal phenomenon with some extremely malevolent manifestations in india. but if we don't believe that it can become better and work towards it it will never become better.

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Old 2nd February 2011, 17:27   #59
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.
But remember, many of us are forced to pay bribe just to get our right. And when they protest, police arrests them. Read what happened with a NRI who returned to Noida, and was asked for bribe by the authorities for some petty work which was his right.
Hi. Sorry to chip in here, but there is no provision under Indian law that permits you to get arrested if you don't pay up. Not that I have faith in the Indian police, but I don't think they can ever arrest you without a warrant or for no reason. And even if they do, you can challenge them in court and the jury will surely be on your side. But in case you do know of something of that sort happening, please let (us) me know. And about the case in bold, please give me a link so I can check it out. And I guess we've moved more than a little off topic here.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 19:09   #60
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Hi. Sorry to chip in here, but there is no provision under Indian law that permits you to get arrested if you don't pay up. Not that I have faith in the Indian police, but I don't think they can ever arrest you without a warrant or for no reason. And even if they do, you can challenge them in court and the jury will surely be on your side. But in case you do know of something of that sort happening, please let (us) me know. And about the case in bold, please give me a link so I can check it out. And I guess we've moved more than a little off topic here.
Please do some google search on noida nri arrest. They were arrested because they started protesting outside noida authority.
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