The SAGA of Low_Bass_Makker

[Autophile]

In a 3-Way system the advantage is that you have a dedicated driver for midrange. And midrange is very crucial part of music reproduction. Car audio is a challenging environment for sound reproduction so you have to be very careful about choosing the components and mounting location of drivers which differs from car to car, not forgetting about difficult to deal with car acoustics.

I prefer 3-Ways over 2-Ways. I would like the sound to be coherent in upper midrange to tweeter with soundstage up in the dash level with transparency and speed. Mounting the tweeter and midrange driver closer together helps in achieving the seamless and coherent sound. This kind of sound is possible only in expensive 2-Ways with bigger tweeter having low Fs, but then bigger tweeters can have downside of not playing higher frequencies well, like bigger midbass drivers don’t have much to offer in upper midrange. In case of smaller tweeter the sound appears to be detached from midrange.

I don’t emphasis on using the drivers with wider dispersion. But the wider dispersion of driver helps in dealing cons of car audio environment. Sometimes it is not possible to mount the driver where we would ideally want to, and the location which is available is generally off-axis eg. Lower portion of door panel near midbass, kick panel (not so famous in India). In these mounting location you have to aim the driver with less dispersion towards the listening position (which can have issues of beaming) where as you don’t have to do much with wide dispersion drivers. As the midrange driver when mounted in door panel and kick panel there is not much of high reflective surface like glass around it. Other place to install midrange and tweeter is in A-pillars where also you can aim the drivers towards listening area and avoid the reflections off the windscreen glass.

Dash mounting has pros and cons, the pros are more alluring than cons so one has to be careful of driver aiming and mounting if done properly the results can be great. Windscreen glass reflection differs from car to car as each car has different dash design, height and windscreen angle.

B&T, I was not aware of Canton midrange with back can. But looking at it seems like it is impossible to mount Canton’s 5” midrange with back can in the door panel because of the mounting depth of the back can. It is only possible to install in some cars that too in the lower portion of door panel where it will not touch the window glass in which case it is low and closer to midbass and idea of achieving midrange height/presence in the soundstange goes for a six and there is no other location where one can accomodate the depth of midrange backcan.

In car audio phase and time plays very important role. Easiest way is to leave it on manufacturer and use passive crossovers.

When you go active it gives you lot of flexibility with crossovers, level, delay, equalizer with which you can virtually tailor the sound of each car as per the acoustics.

Since last 10 years I have been listening to Tannoy loudspeaker with Dual Concentric driver. Dual Concentric is a great driver; it is phase coherent point source driver with first order slopes. The only better thing I can think beyond it is a full range driver. It is good to have shallower slopes on good quality drivers nothing come close to the shallow slope crossovers but in car it is totally different from home.

The phase changes with the change in crossover points and slope. Mounting locations also affect the phase. The 0 / 180 Deg standard phase flip available does not always help. You need a frequency dependent phase shifter to align the phase or a variable phase the way it is available now in home audio subwoofers. But sadly they are not available in car audio electronics. Precision Power used to have it but now they have discontinued. The frequency dependent phase shifter is available as an optional module (PC36) in Audison VRx range amplifiers but then we are talking high end.

So in order to achieve the phase correct system you might have to use/experiment steeper slopes which will also reduce the overlap of the drivers as you are in the near field listening area. It is all placement dependent. I have seen cars winning SQ competition using expensive drivers and using steeper slopes, 3rd – 4th order in tweeters, midrange, midbass and 6th – 8th order in the subs. As no car audio electronics offer that much of flexibility (until recent Pioneeer / Carrozzeria Reference) they use professional processors like dBX, Behringer etc.

As far as the choice of midrange driver type is concerned among dome, cone, horn, ribbon it is ones own choice and sound preference along with budget.

[kb100]

Goo Goo.. GA GA... ***GURGLE***...... DUH??....

LOL ... My knowledge on the subject has definitely improved!!... cant comment on the direction though!!.. (must be cause my grey cells are curently doing a dual concentric thingy themselves!!... heh heh heh)

[low_bass_makker]

ok now this is off the topic it is about the 2-way componet set are the experts agree with this person about the rating give to various sets..





The sets following will be listed by how much I think they are worth, and scale of sound quality mirroring the original (in this case, the concert), options, ease of installation, midbass and looks. Rated 1-10 , 10 being Best. 10 Also indicates the component sets faithfulness to the Concert I attended.

Again, you cannot judge something without a reference point.

MTX Thunder TX6001 series 6.5- sound was okay for this price range. $200. Tweeter clarity was above average. power handling? 75 watts or less all day long. Sound 5. Looks 5. Installation 6. midbass 5.

Kicker RS 6.5 series- sounds clean. midbass is better than MTX. Tweeter is warm, but somewhat distorted in comparison. sound 6. looks 6. midbass 6. installation 6.A happy power range is usually 30-80 watts. Anymore, they didnt *seem* happy.

Infinity CS6000 series 6.5- these have excellent lower powered tweeters. midbass is lacking for this $200 pricerange. You must make the kick pods or door panels as airtight as possible,and remove as much resonance as possible for decent midbass. Again, good clarity, not enough midbass for me. sound 7.look 6.installation 7. midbass 5.

MB Quart Q- The MB tweeters are bright. Perfect for Rap or Techno. Do not aim them at the listener. They locate like Batman at a swim meet. Midbass is good. midbass is also not too hard to achieve. It almost appears MB engineered them with MIDBASS built-in. they dont like more than 110 watts per side. looks 7.5. sound 8. midbass 7. installation 7.

Infinity Perfect 6.5- Tweeter and midbass response is good. off axis response to the listener is just as good. Pricing is important, if you can nail $300 for the set with a warranty-get it. sound 7.5. looks 8. installation 8. midbass 6

Orion P6.2 6.5- they handle 120 watts all day long. and I dont mean max, I mean, I tested them-ALL DAY LONG.(some of you might ask how I sat in a car, with 120 watts going to tweeters this long, simple, I installed them in the BACK of the car.)Tweeter is bright, but off axis is above average. the tweeter can be toned down. midbass in a reasonably sealed enclosure is good. sound 7.5. looks 7. install 7.5. midbass 7.

Diamond Audio HEX/silk AND Ti- silk tweeters are very smooth. not too bright. If lined up properly, they blend with the midbass. midbass response when INSTALLED in an above average enclosure yields above average response. Titanium tweeter is bright. Good news is the crossover can compensat for this. Ti tweeter also seems happier with more than 110 watts per side. crossover is tunable more so than the average multi-order X-overs. happy with 70-120 per side. looks 8.5. (love those germans). Sound 8.5. midbass 8. installation 7. *install would be an 8, but the X-over is huge.

Morel Tweeters: I got the idea to test these from a young guy I sold an amp to. So I went and got some from a home audio dealer as a TEST item. Well, sound 8.5. looks 7. installation 4. These things are huge.

Pioneer TS-C160R- These are awesome for low volume clarity, provided you dont spend more than $150. Power handling, is happy around 50-70 watts. Midbass is lacking. midbass 5. looks 6.5. sound 7. installation 7. would have been an 8 if not for the screw holes.

Memphis Ref 6-all around good component set. Find them for $240 or less- you got a good deal. Midbass is above average, tweeters are solid, but sound artificial. Perfect for Techno or Rap. sound 5. looks 6. installation 8. midbass 6.

Alpine SPX-177R- tweeters handle power nicely, like 130 watts nicely.midbass is strong. dont over due your midbass enclosure, or you might get too much midbass. depth is VERY deep for this frame size. looks 8. sound 8. installation 6. midbass 7. The only downside to these is price. find something better than $350.

Diamond M5- Midbass off the top is CLEAN and tight, but not punchy or full. perfect for smaller cars or easy listning. tweeters are clean. power handling is good for $250 pricerange. midbass 5.5 sound 6.5. installation 8. looks 8.5 Metal looks good here folks. HOWEVER-do not touch that cone or it DENTS.

Polk db series 6.5- midbass for DAYS. tweeters are bright and must be toned down. crossovers seems more than adequate. power handling, happy with 100 watts all day. sound 7. looks 7. installation 7. midbass 8.5.

Image Dynamics CXS6- excellent sound, if they were $300 a set. Tweeters are nice, midrange lacks midbass SLIGHTLY. if you install well, you wont notice. sound 8. looks 8. installation 8. midbass 6.

Image dynamics Comp Horns w/midbass- The sound stage is engulfing with horns. midbass is okay, but I would find an 8 inch to fully back up the horns. install aint easy, and aiming that horn can be a pain, took our test crew from 6pm till 10pm just to get the HORNS done. looks 6. sound 9 (WHEN DONE RIGHT). installation 3. midbass 7.

JL XR6.5- JL often has very good engineering. Tweeters are above average. midbass is above average. Price is above average. If you can snag a set for $300 or less. ROCK them till the cows come home. Good for raggae, rap, rock, alternative, country and the like. Tweeter is not smooth enough for classical instruments. sound 7.5. looks 8.5. installation 8. midbass 7.5.

Eclipse SC8365-Tweeter and midrange mounted together offer a simple remedy for a difficult installation. Midbass is very solid. Kinda like, 50 ft tree-trunk solid against a honda civic ex. some leaves might be lost, but the tree wins this one. Meaning, with a 150 watts per side, the midbass is assertive and comforting. Tweeters are above average. Midrange is somewhat lacking, BUT overall clarity is well above average. sound 8.5. looks 8. installation 4. midbass 8.

Eclipse SC8200 series- midbass is above average, BUT clean sort to speak. tweeters are good for voices and Tympani.crossover offers good options. looks 7. sound 7.5. installation 8. midbass 6

Rainbow Pre- This is one of the premier 3 way sets I wanted 4 years ago. finally got to test them not to long ago. Tweeters, sound golden brown. kinda like good french fries. midbass was strong, but not overly commanding. bass, not sub-bass was an added bonus. crossover setup is slightly time consuming. but over all sound is top notch. Problem? $3000. sound 9. looks 8. installation 5. midbass 7.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

ok now this is off the topic it is about the 2-way componet set are the experts agree with this person about the rating give to various sets..

LBM, before we comment on these ratings, are you now considering 2way sets.

Also, as a courtesy disclaimer, please mention the source, the forum from where this originated.

[ksethuram]

The doors of Swift is not capable of withholding high bass speaker. I have a Pioneer TS-C160R in my front door. The whole door starts vibrating when i increase the bass.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Since last 10 years I have been listening to Tannoy loudspeaker with Dual Concentric driver. Dual Concentric is a great driver; it is phase coherent point source driver with first order slopes. The only better thing I can think beyond it is a full range driver...As far as the choice of midrange driver type is concerned among dome, cone, horn, ribbon it is ones own choice and sound preference along with budget.

JB's got my disease! :-) and I mean that as a compliemnt. LOL. But I must say that JB's a lot more articulate.

JB I did try some fullrange drivers in the car but i found that since they were designed for the home enviroment their cones and surrounds did not stand up too well in the hot, humid car enviroment in Mumbai. In fact one of the drivers I had used (in the early 90s) was a 8" Tannoy dual concentric in the rear of my Contessa. That was when Ram of R&S Eelectronics had bought Tannoy to India (along with Dynaudio).

I found the Tannoys to be beautifully dynamic but a bit too forward. Some music even got irritating.

Back to the topic...

In short using a 3 way or 2 way in a car depends on the drivers you have access to, the car you intend to install them in, and the effort you intend to make in the installation. The factors are so variable that it can only be discussed on a case to case basis.

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by gunbir

LBM, before we comment on these ratings, are you now considering 2way sets.

No man I am not considering the 2-way as I am using the Pioneer TS-C160R and they rock good. I just wanna compare the company I know this sound weird but I am asking that the person who has audited the above speaker is honest with his result thats all nothing else.......

Please experts comment on the same.............


ksethuram try damping the door It will help a lot I will give u a pic of the same. Later I am going to put whole lot of damping on the whole door soon....









Also How do u find the pioneer TS-C160R. How do u rate them on the scale of 1-10. Did u considered any other model before buying them.....

[navin]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

ok now this is off the topic it is about the 2-way componet set are the experts agree with this person about the rating give to various sets...

1. who wrote this?
2. models differ from country to country and year to year.
3. sound is install/location/car dependant as well

[low_bass_makker]

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ult...c;f=4;t=020202

Navin Ji U can see the whole topic here..............

[navin]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ult...c;f=4;t=020202

Navin Ji U can see the whole topic here..............

thank s.

[Bass&Trouble]

LBM, that is a very confusing evaluation. His parameters for rating are sound, looks, installation and midbass. Looks should not be a basis to judge a speaker, build quality would be more appropriate. Let's assume he means that, but still what is midbass as a parameter???

Is this a midbass evaluation test?? All of his descriptions border around whether the midbass was appealing to him or not. It is unclear whether midbass refers to the LF driver in general or the band of frequencies that constitue the term. In some references it seems like the former, and in others, the latter. There is no mention about what any of those sets do in the vocal range etc. Clearly his concern is with whether the woofers tested were punchy or not. Although he is right on some counts about the sound of the various sets tested, it is still overall a very juvenile adventure.

And whatever makes him think that speakers with bright tweeters and overpowering midbass are good for rap and techno?? To start with, rap and techno aren't even remotely similar musical genres. And by techno, I'm sure he means all kinds of dance music that includes the likes of house, trance, DnB etc. All of which are different from each other. A lot of this music is also occassionally excellently produced, so you can't always play it down as a 16 yr. old junkie's shoddy bedroom adventure. For 'techno', you would like the highs to be a bit attacking, not harsh. Forward, but not overpowering. Loud, but not imbalanced with respect to the rest of the spectrum. RnB and hip-hop on the other hand do not employ spanking mid-bass notes. Unless it's reggaeton. Again, different styles of music. I listen to a lot of the above-mentioned music, and I like them played through clean speakers. Horn loaded compression drivers and big mid-bass drivers help. But not bright or boomy stuff.

On the other hand, about time someone agreed that the MB Quart tweets bite your ear off. I've seen some dodos call it warm and subtle.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

The sets following will be listed by how much I think they are worth, and scale of sound quality mirroring the original (in this case, the concert), options, ease of installation, midbass and looks. Rated 1-10 , 10 being Best. 10 Also indicates the component sets faithfulness to the Concert I attended.....

Have to agree with B&T, just this guys impression of what all he's heard. While he makes a couple of valid points here and there, by and large its an excercise in futility. Seems to be an installer, seems he has heard all these in different setups in different cars. All through the post hes talking about midbass and then he reviews Morel tweeters. ???? So yeah, I wouldnt his ranting too seriously.

[low_bass_makker]

http://www.dls.se/english/speakers/Iridium63i.htm

What do u think guys how is the above product in the 3-way system......

Any reviews guys -> navin, B&T , Sam , Gunbir , JB and many more...

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

http://www.dls.se/english/speakers/Iridium63i.htm

What do u think guys how is the above product in the 3-way system......

Any reviews guys -> navin, B&T , Sam , Gunbir , JB and many more...

you mean these?
http://www.dls.se/english/speakers/up35.htm ?

[low_bass_makker]

jkdas I meant the same as the above but to clear ur doubt i am giving the link again.........


http://www.dls.se/english/speakers/Iridium63i.htm