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Old 4th May 2011, 21:58   #76
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

What ever happened to the good ol' friendly trucker who shows his hand to signal you to wait for an overtake, or waving you to go ahead and overtake safely. I really appreciate it when a trucker does this for me. How come no one has mentioned this.
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Old 5th May 2011, 00:52   #77
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gautam Dhaliwal View Post
@ vina - I too thought it was a harmless practice of putting on blinkers, till i had a close shave due to this.

I'm not saying this is harmless - I'm a new driver as far as car is concerned and earlier when I drove a two wheeler, I would avoid driving at nights. so I don't know.


On the Mumbai - Pune expressway people put on blinkers in the tunnels. I was in such a tunnel once and there was a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder (which is the rightmost lane in one tunnel) with its blinkers on because some plastic drums it was carrying had fallen off. In normal circumstances i could have identified this vehicle as a hazard and slowed down. However, one more set of blinkers in an already crowded tunnel is not something I gave a second thought to, i didnt slow down and had to take evasive action at the last minute.

When the conditions are hazardous, there are other ways (mentioned in posts before) of making sure you are visible to the other road users. Hazards lights are to tell road users that you are a hazard.

I dont see the point of someone indicating to me that its raining heavily, i can see!!!

Using blinkers normally makes me less alert to real hazards.

I'm just trying to find out what can go wrong if you use blinkers - you provided the first reason it should not be used.

What are the other possible problems this causes?
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Old 5th May 2011, 00:59   #78
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
I'm just trying to find out what can go wrong if you use blinkers - you provided the first reason it should not be used.

What are the other possible problems this causes?

Simple. If everyone starts using the hazard lights like these and kept on going, people will not take the hazard lights seriously and end up rear ending a car with real hazard situation. The same thing goes to the right indicator signalling to overtake. What will happen if the signal is to switch the lane but the vehicle behind starts to overtake?
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Old 5th May 2011, 01:15   #79
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by Ford_madhan View Post
Simple. If everyone starts using the hazard lights like these and kept on going, people will not take the hazard lights seriously and end up rear ending a car with real hazard situation. The same thing goes to the right indicator signalling to overtake. What will happen if the signal is to switch the lane but the vehicle behind starts to overtake?

Got it from the previous post.

Any other reasons?
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Old 5th May 2011, 03:38   #80
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

While driving to Mumbai in December, I encountered an Indica guy near Karad who was driving with the blinkers on at 10.30 PM for no reason. I think it was wired to his brake lights. It was damn confusing for sometime as he would be overtaking and braking and I would not understand whether he is slowing or changing lanes because I could only see half of the vehicle.

Just imagine if it was raining, it would have been a nightmare to understand. It IS a wrong practice and fog lamps or head/brake lamps are sufficient.

Also, it would not have been called the HAZARD WARNING LIGHTS otherwise.

Last edited by CorsaLove : 5th May 2011 at 03:40.
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Old 5th May 2011, 09:31   #81
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsaLove View Post
While driving to Mumbai in December, I encountered an Indica guy near Karad who was driving with the blinkers on at 10.30 PM for no reason. I think it was wired to his brake lights. It was damn confusing for sometime as he would be overtaking and braking and I would not understand whether he is slowing or changing lanes because I could only see half of the vehicle.

Just imagine if it was raining, it would have been a nightmare to understand. It IS a wrong practice and fog lamps or head/brake lamps are sufficient.

Also, it would not have been called the HAZARD WARNING LIGHTS otherwise.
That has become a common practice now; almost every other cab, mini-van on the road has the hazard lights, reverse lights wired to the brakes.

So, these vehicles do a mini-disco each time they brake!
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Old 5th May 2011, 10:40   #82
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by CorsaLove View Post
While driving to Mumbai in December, I encountered an Indica guy near Karad who was driving with the blinkers on at 10.30 PM for no reason. I think it was wired to his brake lights. It was damn confusing for sometime as he would be overtaking and braking and I would not understand whether he is slowing or changing lanes because I could only see half of the vehicle.

Just imagine if it was raining, it would have been a nightmare to understand. It IS a wrong practice and fog lamps or head/brake lamps are sufficient.

Also, it would not have been called the HAZARD WARNING LIGHTS otherwise.
Thanks, here's reason number 2 id the driver of a vehicle following you can only see part of your vehicle then he may assume that you intend to turn/change lanes - when you have no such intention.

This is a pretty serious thing.

Any other reason?
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Old 5th May 2011, 11:26   #83
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
Thanks, here's reason number 2 id the driver of a vehicle following you can only see part of your vehicle then he may assume that you intend to turn/change lanes - when you have no such intention.

This is a pretty serious thing.

Any other reason?
Another reason would be the question with which this thread was started. "How would one indicate a turn while the hazard lights are on?". So If a driver wants to turn / change lanes while the blinkers are on, no one in the world would be able to guess his intentions and might proceed to overtake.
In most of the cars your indicators don't work independently when the hazard lights are on (with a few execption like I had mentioned in the Polo scenario earlier in one of the posts - the moment you use the indicator stalk to indicate a turn/lane change, the hazard blinkers switch off automatically and come back again once the stalk is in default position).
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Old 5th May 2011, 15:23   #84
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

Found this useful PDF on the government website for "National Institute of Disaster Management". They have rightly termed all these incorrect uses of indicators and hazard warning lights as "man made disasters".

http://nidm.gov.in/idmc2/PDF/Present...ents/Pres5.pdf

Just because some moron on the road thinks that switching on hazards

a. during the rain or fog

b. while passing through a tunnel

c. while going straight through a junction

is a convenient way of warning others, doesn't mean it's an "accepted" convention. Same goes for the "right indicator indicates giving a pass" practice. Thats akin to saying that relieving oneself or spitting on the wall by the sidewalk is an "accepted" convention. Just because the rest of the people idiotically accept it (and gladly follow it) does not decrease it's nuisance value.

Hazard lights are to be used only if the vehicle is

a. broken down (on the road or road shoulder)

b. being towed

c.travelling at extremely low speeds due to a malfunction (like brake failure, or the speed-restricted "limp mode" in modern cars).

For poor visibility conditions, most cars these days come equipped with powerful front as well as rear fog lamps. After all, the engineers who put those lamps there did it with some purpose in mind. And they made them bright enough and tested them to be visible even in the poorest visibility conditions. For those cars that don't have fog lamps, dozens of aftermarket ones are available in the market.

In an overtake scenario:

1. It is actually the overtaking vehicle that is supposed to turn on the right indicator, and not otherwise. This is similar to the "lane change" manouvre, where the overtaking car is warning the car behind it (and any oncoming cars, see next point) that it is moving to the right for initiating an overtake. This is irrespective of the number of lanes the road has.

2. At the same time, if there is an oncoming vehicle in the lane that is being used for overtaking (on a single or multi lane highway), the driver of the overtaking vehicle needs to flash his headlights to warn the oncoming vehicle. (The oncoming vehicle needs to slow down, and not flash back with an increase in speed, as it happens in our country. )

3. The "overtaken" vehicle need not signal anything. But

a. If it is daytime the driver "may" wave his right hand back and forth outside the vehicle window to signal a pass.

b. Similarly, if it is dark, the driver "may" use the LEFT indicator to signal that he intends to stick to the left of the road, and the trailing vehicle has permission to pass.

c. Again, the above 2 actions "may" be done only if the driver of the "overtaken" vehicle is feeling pestered by incessant honking/flashing by the trailing vehicle, but it is not mandatory otherwise.

d. Once the "overtaking" vehicle has fully crossed the "overtaken" vehicle, it needs to blink the left indicator to warn the overtaken vehicle that it is entering the lane ahead of it. This, again, is a "reverse lane change" action.

e. Once the overtaking vehicle has fully entered the lane ahead of the "overtaken" vehicle, all indicators should be switched off, and both vehicles may continue their course.

NOTE: The left and right indicators are also called "turn signals", and that exactly what they are. They indicate if a vehicle is turning, or if it is changing lanes. The latter is because the implication of both moves is the same for surrounding vehicles.


The most common trait I have seen in most Indian drivers is that they need everything to be in black and white in the rule book. Alongwith one page on "how to use a given feature", we need to add a hundred pages on "how not to use a given feature" and write them down as punishable offenses. Unless we do that, people will simply use any light on the vehicle in any way they wish, common sense be damned.

- Bullitt.
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Old 5th May 2011, 15:46   #85
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

@bullitt
What a post, very detailed and i agree with your views here.
Especially that the overtaker should turn on the right turn signal before overtaking. and then the left signal when the overtake has been complete before returning to the lane of the overtaker.
not following these simple principles can lead to more work for another type of taker.
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Old 6th May 2011, 00:28   #86
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post


In an overtake scenario:

1. It is actually the overtaking vehicle that is supposed to turn on the right indicator, and not otherwise. This is similar to the "lane change" manouvre, where the overtaking car is warning the car behind it (and any oncoming cars, see next point) that it is moving to the right for initiating an overtake. This is irrespective of the number of lanes the road has.

In fact, looking into your rearview mirror (which is what you should do before you start turning/changing lanes) - this is how you come to know that a guy is about to overtake you. Honking is not a good practice for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post

2. At the same time, if there is an oncoming vehicle in the lane that is being used for overtaking (on a single or multi lane highway), the driver of the overtaking vehicle needs to flash his headlights to warn the oncoming vehicle. (The oncoming vehicle needs to slow down, and not flash back with an increase in speed, as it happens in our country. )
I'm confused, why would you try to overtake if the lane is blocked by oncoming traffic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
3. The "overtaken" vehicle need not signal anything. But

a. If it is daytime the driver "may" wave his right hand back and forth outside the vehicle window to signal a pass.

b. Similarly, if it is dark, the driver "may" use the LEFT indicator to signal that he intends to stick to the left of the road, and the trailing vehicle has permission to pass.

c. Again, the above 2 actions "may" be done only if the driver of the "overtaken" vehicle is feeling pestered by incessant honking/flashing by the trailing vehicle, but it is not mandatory otherwise.

d. Once the "overtaking" vehicle has fully crossed the "overtaken" vehicle, it needs to blink the left indicator to warn the overtaken vehicle that it is entering the lane ahead of it. This, again, is a "reverse lane change" action.

e. Once the overtaking vehicle has fully entered the lane ahead of the "overtaken" vehicle, all indicators should be switched off, and both vehicles may continue their course.

sadly though all of the above is obvious - few use them. Also I have seen commercial vehicle guys (taxi drivers - there are more good ones than bad ones on the roads) use them much more often than do the others (especially the supposedly well educated)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
NOTE: The left and right indicators are also called "turn signals", and that exactly what they are. They indicate if a vehicle is turning, or if it is changing lanes. The latter is because the implication of both moves is the same for surrounding vehicles.


The most common trait I have seen in most Indian drivers is that they need everything to be in black and white in the rule book. Alongwith one page on "how to use a given feature", we need to add a hundred pages on "how not to use a given feature" and write them down as punishable offenses. Unless we do that, people will simply use any light on the vehicle in any way they wish, common sense be damned.

- Bullitt.
sad reality eh.
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Old 6th May 2011, 09:26   #87
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
In fact, looking into your rearview mirror (which is what you should do before you start turning/changing lanes) - this is how you come to know that a guy is about to overtake you. Honking is not a good practice for this.
I think what he is referring to is if the guy behind me has his right turn indicator on, but he still is behind me and not crossing over into the adjoining lane, I know that he wants to overtake me, and so I shall respond accordingly. Many times when I want to drive leisurely I may trail a vehicle for a few kilometres, without trying to overtake even if there's a chance. When I do make up my mind, before executing the overtake I usually would want to either honk quickly or flash my lights a couple of times to let the driver in front know I am going to overtake. I almost always (even on empty roads) use the right turn indicator before changing lanes, so I am just making sure the driver in front is alert to the fact that I am now overtaking him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
I'm confused, why would you try to overtake if the lane is blocked by oncoming traffic?
Again, I think he meant when you can see an oncoming vehicle, but it's still quite some distance away and you can safely overtake. He was referring to the tendency of many of us when we see an oncoming vehicle overtaking, we try to become aggressive and block his path so we won't have to slow down.
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Old 6th May 2011, 11:36   #88
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

Another scenario where you might need to use the Hazard lights / Blinkers.
It's pitch dark on the highway, there isn't any mechanic or ASC. and you realise that your parking light and headlight is not working, or it may be your taillight which is not working on one side. So in this case, you should not stick to the right most lane, and you should put on your hazard lights to make your vehicle visible. Because if you don't it may be difficult for others road users to realize that it's a car and not a bike. Which may lead to an accident.
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Old 6th May 2011, 11:53   #89
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
In fact, looking into your rearview mirror (which is what you should do before you start turning/changing lanes) - this is how you come to know that a guy is about to overtake you. Honking is not a good practice for this.

I'm confused, why would you try to overtake if the lane is blocked by oncoming traffic?
@ vina: You have confused 2 different things. honeybee has already clarified my post. To make things clearer:

Looking into the rearview mirror from time to time is a good driving practice which should be followed at all times, irrespective of whether one is being overtaken or not. We as human beings have been blessed with eyes only in the front of our heads. The 3 rear view mirrors together, in combination and with correct alignment, give us a very good idea about what is going on behind us.

A single warning honk by the "overtaking" vehicle is not a bad idea at all. You are referring to honking by the "overtaken" vehicle, which is useless. I haven't mentioned that in my post either.

Honking is an annoying practice followed by our uneducated (not necessary illeterate, 2 entirely different things) drivers whenever they want to overtake the vehicle ahead. Most of them just keep their hand on the horn pad (and aggressively tailgate) till the leading vehicle has given way, not considering that the lead vehicle may not be in a situation to give way for a few seconds/minutes.

What I said was, the "overtaken" or lead vehicle's driver may use right hand or LEFT indicator if he feels pestered due to the incessant honking/ flashing/ tailgating by the trailing vehicle. But, it is not mandatory to do so. He need not give any signal whatsoever to the vehicle trying to overtake, as long as he is continuing his straight course. In fact, it is in this exact situation that most Indian driver's turn on the RIGHT indicator to say "you may pass". THIS IS WRONG. In the same situation, what if he wants to turn right? He will do the exact same thing, i.e. turn on the RIGHT indicator!

Also, by oncoming vehicle in the opposite lane, I did not mean the lane is "blocked". If you see an oncoming vehicle "at a safe distance" while you are overtaking, you should flash your headlights to warn him that you are in his lane. Please not that all indicators should be OFF while the overtake is IN PROGRESS.

Use indicators only while switching lanes before overtaking and after overtaking, and not actually while overtaking.

Hope this clarifies.

- Bullitt
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Old 6th May 2011, 12:12   #90
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Default Re: Heavy rain, blinkers on; how do you signal lane change?

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Originally Posted by mdsaab View Post
Another scenario where you might need to use the Hazard lights / Blinkers.
It's pitch dark on the highway, there isn't any mechanic or ASC. and you realise that your parking light and headlight is not working, or it may be your taillight which is not working on one side. So in this case, you should not stick to the right most lane, and you should put on your hazard lights to make your vehicle visible. Because if you don't it may be difficult for others road users to realize that it's a car and not a bike. Which may lead to an accident.
@ mdsaab: As far as headlights are concerned, in 90% of the cases, only one filament goes bust. If that happens, just change the beam to keep both lights operational. Even if both filaments (of same bulb) are busted, use the front fog lamps. If not, even if the small parking lamp still works, it is enough indication of your vehicle's size for an oncoming vehicle.

On a different note, it is for such eventualities that manufacturer's like MUL provide a spare set of H/L bulbs with the car. One should know how to replace these in case of emergency.

In my opinion, one fused tail-light is still OK. As long as the other works, you can continue driving. After all, apart from the tail-lights, you also have the number-plate lights and the occasional (twin as well as high-mounted) brake light for guiding a trailing vehicle.

But 2 fused tail-lights is a definite No-No. You are right in this case, keep left and use hazards till you reach the nearest garage. You can even switch on the rear fog lamp instead, if the vehicle has one.

- Bullitt
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