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Old 15th February 2006, 12:33   #16
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EVO6, I salute you for stopping to help!
It is too common to hear instances, where man will not stop to help fellow man.

If in our rat-race we lose our value for human life and be idle spectators to someone's hapless suffering and death, don't we richly deserve to lie broken and bleeding someday on the road while those we wouldn't help witness in curiosity?

Condolences to the family of the person who died so unexpectedly and painfully and prayers for the complete recovery of the injured.
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Old 15th February 2006, 12:33   #17
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In the mid 1980s there was lots of noise in the USA about the short wheelbase Maruti Gypsy. In the USA, they called them Suzuki Samurai. They were notorious for buck-horse like handling and roll-over accidents.
Later on there was similar noise about the Mercedes "A"-class cars. Think of them as Hyundai Santros made by Daimler-Benz Aktiegesellschaft.

After coming back home to India, I always wondered about the safety of the Maruti Omni van, and the tall-boys: Hyundai Santro, Daewoo Matiz and Suzuki Wagon-R. IMHO, these cars were designed and sold in the countries they came from for benign activities like fetching vegetables from the market and dropping kindergarteners to school.

Not for long-distance driving on 120 km/hr expressways. For that you used a 118NE, HM Contessa, Ford Escort or Opel Astra.

Times have changed, but people never learn, do they?

Think about it.
Don't we throw caution to the winds and judge the expressway-worthiness of a car,
by irrelevant factors?
by how high a price we purchased the car for -- a metric almost entirely driven by the vendors commercial greed, sales tax and octroi thereof?
by cosmetic alloy wheels and tubeless radials?

The so-called "tall-boy" cars have a dismal safety reputation in the high-speed developed world. We've completely ignored that. They're best for fetching vegetables from the market and dropping kindergarteners to school.

Didn't mean to hurt any sensibilities. If I did, I apologize in advance!

Last edited by Ram : 15th February 2006 at 12:39.
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Old 15th February 2006, 13:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normally_crazy
but damn it - why the heck dint they have the seat belts on ? its damn difficult having symapthy for such people maan !
I can understand your frustration, but sadly not all so well informed. Even in T-BHP community, there will be many who believe that lowering tyre pressure prevents tyre burst. And again, no one deserves to die like this for breaking a rule :(
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Old 15th February 2006, 15:27   #19
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hey EVO ..good that you stopped ...but sadly there wasnt much that you could do ...i think there is only one way that a car can topple ...FRONT TIRE BURST....
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Old 15th February 2006, 16:28   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
After coming back home to India, I always wondered about the safety of the Maruti Omni van, and the tall-boys: Hyundai Santro, Daewoo Matiz and Suzuki Wagon-R. IMHO, these cars were designed and sold in the countries they came from for benign activities like fetching vegetables from the market and dropping kindergarteners to school.

Not for long-distance driving on 120 km/hr expressways. For that you used a 118NE, HM Contessa, Ford Escort or Opel Astra.

Times have changed, but people never learn, do they?

Think about it.
Don't we throw caution to the winds and judge the expressway-worthiness of a car,
by irrelevant factors?
by how high a price we purchased the car for -- a metric almost entirely driven by the vendors commercial greed, sales tax and octroi thereof?
by cosmetic alloy wheels and tubeless radials?

The so-called "tall-boy" cars have a dismal safety reputation in the high-speed developed world. We've completely ignored that. They're best for fetching vegetables from the market and dropping kindergarteners to school.

Didn't mean to hurt any sensibilities. If I did, I apologize in advance!
I do own a Santro ZipDrive (2000 model) which I flog on the Expressway every week. And no, you didn't hurt my sensibilities. Do you actually have statistics for Santro's stability at high speeds? This is the FIRST time that I have ever heard of a Santro overturning. I would dearly love to know the reason. Speedsatya suggests front tyre burst -- possible. If so, I suspect that most cars would be very difficult to control at high speeds, so why single out the Santro? (BTW, was it a Xing or one of the older models that overturned?)

And I have to disagree with your assessment. My Santro is absolutely superb for long drives in Indan conditions. It is completely maintenance-free and rugged and reliable. For example, on the Pune bypass stretch of NH4 (from Katraj to Dehu Road), you can easily zip past most traffic (indluding many heavy vehicles) at high speeds of 120 kph on the Santro. On one occasion, a Sonata and an Accord zipped past me on the Expressway, but I caught up with them (stuck behind a Volvo bus at 90 kph) on the Pune bypass road, and comfortably whupped them, overtaking the Volvo with just enough clearance on the left. Give me the highly maneuverable Santro anyday under Indian traffic conditions, as compared to these behemoths. And on the Expressway, Santro is more than adequate (does 150 kph) and holds its own against most cars. I have never found any stability issues in my frequent high-speed drives on the Expressway, even when I had to make sharp turns/lane changes on a couple of occasions - although it is true that I do sometimes feel strong crosswinds, especially while overtaking at high speeds.

Now you add the above advantages to tha fact that you can haul vegetables, kids and a lot more comfortably in the city, and you realize that you have an all-piurpose vehicle under Indian conditions.

It may be true that the Santro is inadequate under US or European highway conditions; but one should not jump to the same conclusion under Indian conditions. In the present case any number of causes are possible and may well be associated with driver error. Poor tyre maintenance is one of the most common causes of tyre-burst accidents on the Expressway, and as far as I know, the Santro still does not come equipped with tubeless tyres/alloy wheels (which are not gimmicks as you allege).

Regards, rks
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Old 15th February 2006, 16:31   #21
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My condolences to the bereaved family. And Evo you deserve kudos for being so thoughtful as to have stopped and tried your best to be of some help. I am sure you were not strolling on that highway. And yet to took time out. Thanks mate for being there for those people when they needed you.

satya bhai... it is not necessary that the front tire needs to burst for a Santro to topple. One of our PMs had a very bad experience a couple of years back. He was going to office early in the morning (early by IT standards, 8 am). The drive to the office was a long one and passes through 4-laned highways (Medchal Highway). He had his window rolled down. All of a sudden a huge plastic bag flew in through the window and wrapped itself around his face thus blinding him. In panic he tried to brake... maybe he swerved also (as it happens in panic situs). The result was that his Santro toppled... 4-5 times, on its bonnet, roof, back and then sideways several times. He was saved (I do not know whether he had the belts on) but was hospitalised for 4 months... thereafter he had to wear those tension belts (used in spinal injuries etc) around his neck for 2 years.
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Old 15th February 2006, 16:45   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rks
I do own a Santro ZipDrive (2000 model) which I flog on the Expressway every week.
...
Regards, rks
rks, just because you drive your Santro on the highways and managed to speed up to insane levels does not prove anything. I understand that you are a bit defensive about your car. Thats natural. We all love our cars and jump to its defense. However what ram is saying has some facts in it and solid reasons.

Santro has small tires, in terms of both radius and width. Coupled to that the fact that it is unconventionally tall but is not so long. These facts cause problems like less than ideal CG, air-resistance issues etc. At high speeds these problems only get compunded. It just becomes a high wire act that can topple if any variable goes out of control. Vehicles of Santro's dynamics are known to have failed the slalom tests.

It is true that everything that applies to US and Europe need not be applied here. And yet the fact is that with better roads, superb hi-speed expressways we are actually heading the US/European way. So more and more those same factors have started playing it out here as well. Ram's vegetable runs and "pick up the kids" errands are only metaphors to say that Santro is a brilliant city car. No differing opinions on that. However hi-speed expressway runs are an entirely different ballgame.

I do not mean to belittle Santro. It has its utility. However what I said are just to put forth some issues to consider.
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Old 15th February 2006, 16:59   #23
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My condolences to the family - may the lady's soul rest in peace and the others recover well.


As far as the question on seatbelts go, its crazy but true that people actually think seatbelts are for sissies and so are helmets - its just that it may be too late when they overcome this illusion.

The other point is lack of infrastructure in India, which again has a number of reasons behind it - no point discussing them again and again - try to do your bit, thats the least you can.

Evo, really good to hear you actually stopped over to help them. Not many people would do that.


Drive safely guys - rules are there for a reason - lets follow them.
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:00   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo
satya bhai... it is not necessary that the front tire needs to burst for a Santro to topple. .


zappo bhai ..please read wat i have written ...i havent said anything about a santro ...i have told that on a straight road car can topple only if the front tire bursts ..it can happen to any tall boy car ..or any vehicle with higher CG....

and rks ...u say the santro is stable at 150 kph ...u are living on the edge ...that car is meant for city use ...its not for high speed driving ....brake suddenly at 150 kph or swerve at that speed...and u will be history ..please drive safe
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:07   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedsatya
and rks ...u say the santro is stable at 150 kph ...u are living on the edge ...that car is meant for city use ...its not for high speed driving ....brake suddenly at 150 kph or swerve at that speed...and u will be history ..please drive safe
with speedsatya.......take care my friend, I, for one, would not risk a Santro at 150 kmph........different cars fulfil different needs and I would not say the Santro fulfils the Need for Speed under any circumstances. But that is my opinion only and you may, of course differ; but please don't risk any other lives while you differ
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:11   #26
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Evo..kudos for being a Good Samaritan..

The Incident Kind of Scares me...When I Delhi...I drive to Dehradun with my family...While I & the front seat passenger wear the seat belts...Alto doesnt have rear seat belts..

I guess the lesson for me is to have the Reat Seat Belts installed in the after market..
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:11   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedsatya
zappo bhai ..please read wat i have written ...i havent said anything about a santro ...i have told that on a straight road car can topple only if the front tire bursts ..it can happen to any tall boy car ..or any vehicle with higher CG....
Yaa... ok. I also only used Santro as a placeholder since we were in general talking about this particular case of Santro. The fact is it can happen to any car with higher CG. And it can happen whenever something causes sudden impediments to their dynamics (which is already on a razor thin balance). As in the case I narrated a sudden brake application also caused the same result.
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:14   #28
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On the Same Topic..

Are there any Stats available on the Casualties in India - broken up by different Car models ( as a % of total sales, etc)..

Of course , the Stats may be skewed towards M800, Zen, Santro, Indica..by the sheer volume of their sales..

But still..maybe some indicators..

w.r.t Safety rankings of Indian cars, the least we talk about it, the better !
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:15   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rks
I do own a Santro ZipDrive (2000 model) which I flog on the On one occasion, a Sonata and an Accord zipped past me on the Expressway, but I caught up with them (stuck behind a Volvo bus at 90 kph) on the Pune bypass road, and comfortably whupped them, overtaking the Volvo with just enough clearance on the left. And on the Expressway, Santro is more than adequate (does 150 kph) and holds its own against most cars. I have never found any stability issues in my frequent high-
Regards, rks
As a fellow Santro Owner.... my humble is advise not to take chances with Santro and laws of Physics.... Pls. be careful over 100Kph in Santro...
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Old 15th February 2006, 17:41   #30
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Having extensivly driven santro on highways, I find it much more skittish than the indica. Though santro reaches higher speeds, corsswind stability is almost nill. Every time a bus passes you it feels as if the car will fly.
I think this problem will be there with all light weight high CG cars.
For those who flog their GL model getz and santro's a word of caution.
the tyres are 155R80. Infact in case of getz they are of lower speed rating than mentioned in user manual. So if you wanna drive 100+ get atleast 185+ tyres.
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