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Old 15th September 2011, 15:40   #61
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by devansn View Post

With due respect to the law / rules, I beg to slightly differ here. I think rules are for the weak - those who cannot judge their / their vehicle's limitations. I mean, even 100 kmph is not a safe speed for many vehicles / drivers in particular driving conditions - its all relative. Ultimately it is for you to decide what is the speed you can take on your vehicle in different conditions. I think the driver's ethics is what matters - to be responsible and make sure his and other's safety. If even hacking can be done ethically, why not speeding?! :-)
And guns are for strong people. If even hacking can be done ethically, why not killing someone? I think if someone is not following the rules he is a strong guy and a threat to my strength, and since I live in jungle and follow the law of jungle, I should exterminate him. No?
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Old 15th September 2011, 15:49   #62
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

@keyur: You did a great job in helping the victims of the accident. Hope there are more good samaritans like you in the world.

While ABS does provide more safety than a non ABS equipped vehicle, we should be aware of its limitations of how it works and what it does (also what it doesn't do). In this case, I feel that the driver simply tried to turn the steering in the wrong direction relative to the fishtailing he experienced, and hence the accident.

Here is a video which tries to explain how ABS works and how to use it to our advantage in real world situations:
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Old 15th September 2011, 15:52   #63
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by good.car-ma View Post
I salute your stand on seatbelts as it is right but your subsequent statement appalls me! It is ridiculous to compromise road safety for personal pleasure. Remember that others are dependent on your driving and vice versa.

It could very well be that your wife/child/mother is driving at a low speed and a person who thinks like you is driving at a high speed and the end result is an accident. Would you still say that its all in the game since rules are for "the weak" who in this case, turned out to be your loved ones???
Again, extremely sorry for not elaborating my usage of "the weak" - "The weak" to me are the ones who cannot judge their limitations and act accordingly. In situations where even the posted speed limits are dangerous, for instance, when it rains for the first time in a season and the road is slippery due to all that dust, even a person driving in the legal speed limit could cause an accident. The speed limits are posted for people who are not so good in judging road conditions and acting accordingly - but thats only one step to complete safety. In a lot of scenarios driving "legally" need not avoid all kinds of accidents and inconveniences to fellow beings.
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Old 15th September 2011, 15:58   #64
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by Neilguy View Post
Here is a video which tries to explain how ABS works and how to use it to our advantage in real world situations:
Very informative and useful dude. Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 15th September 2011, 16:03   #65
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
And guns are for strong people. If even hacking can be done ethically, why not killing someone? I think if someone is not following the rules he is a strong guy and a threat to my strength, and since I live in jungle and follow the law of jungle, I should exterminate him. No?
LOL

IMHO rules are meant to be followed. Just because everyone in our dear country thinks he/she is a bit special and the rules can be bent in their favour has lead to the situation we find ourselves in.

In the scenario mentioned earlier according it is totally the drivers fault. Driving at speeds of 120kmph+ and not being familiar with how ABS works is just his fault.
Even i had a similar experience some time back. I was coming from Delhi to Chandigarh and on the way near Panipat a traffic policeman suddenly appeared in front of me on the road. I was doing about 100kmph and slammed the brakes totally. Fortunately i stopped well short of the person in question. I did not experience any vibrations or anything, just heard some squealing from the tyres in the beginning which stopped almost immidiately and the car was very maneuverable the entire time.
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Old 15th September 2011, 16:09   #66
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
And guns are for strong people. If even hacking can be done ethically, why not killing someone? I think if someone is not following the rules he is a strong guy and a threat to my strength, and since I live in jungle and follow the law of jungle, I should exterminate him. No?
When an old woman tries to cross a road (not through a zebra line) and a vehicle is approaching, one can very well honk her away (even if he / she can slow down the vehicle, and let her cross) and continue in the posted "speed limit", and be content in doing nothing "illegal". But to me, it is unethical and I would call people who do that "the weak".

I learned something today - its not only asking people to wear their seatbelt that ruins relations, its also my inability to elaborate things.
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Old 15th September 2011, 16:49   #67
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Lightbulb Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

First and foremost, The speed limits we have in our country are sometimes downright absurd. I have seen 4-lane with concrete median roads in India with a speed limit of 40. Tell me who can follow speed limits on such roads. What I observed all throughout this thread was that Delhi people were most in favor of sticking to speed limits. But weren't the speed limits inside Delhi only raised last week because too many people would break them?

Also, do you guys happen to know that the National speed limit for all National Highways in India is 80 for 4-wheeler (60 for 2 wheelers). How many of us adhere to this one?

Coming to the topic of Speed Limit Enforcement on the Mumbai Pune Expressway. If I were driving on the e-way on the middle lane maintaining a constant 79kmph (speed limit is 80). I would be very very very scared. Not because I am driving too fast or too close to the speed limit. But because everybody would be overtaking me at speeds nearly 2 times I am doing. Especially the German saloons and the Honda Civics and Accords. Believe me it is not a very comfortable position to be in when constantly at the back of your mind you would be thinking which car would just crash into you from behind when you try to overtake the trailer truck going ahead of you at 55kmph.

What would you do at that time?
Become a leftist?(Illegal + Unsafe driving practice)
Or move to the rightmost lane praying that nobody rear-ends into you for the 20 seconds it would take you to overtake the trailer while still sticking to the speed limit?



We must understand that such roads are fast transit routes meant for high speeds and assigning speed limits such that underpowered vehicles do not become a nuisance on this road is the worst way to counter it. In the same way, motorcycles are not allowed on E-way, vehicles below a certain bhp/tonne should not be allowed on the E-way. This will very well keep the 3-wheelers, Tata Aces, (M800s, Omnis, Nanos???)& the 18 wheelers off it because the just wont qualify. The next logical thing to do is to introduce a minimum speed limit on such access-controlled 'super' highways such that traveling here at speeds of 80 or below should in fact be illegal and anyone driving 'slower' should be fined. That way, it will become a 'enter at your own risk' highway for such underpowered vehicles and they themselves will stay away.

FYI, if we compare the above model with 'Motorways' in, none other than, Pakistan, I would not be very far from saying that this is the exact system they follow.

Quote:
Pakistan's motorways are either six-lanes or four-lanes with a universal minimum speed limit of 80 km/h and a maximum speed limit of 100 km/h for heavy transport vehicles and 120 km/h for light transport vehicles. All four-lane motorways are upgradable to six-lanes. They have a central median and are fenced on the outside for safety and prevention of unauthorized access by pedestrians, animals and slow-moving vehicles. Entry to all motorways in Pakistan is restricted to fast-moving vehicles only, including high-performance heavy bikes. Pedestrians, bicycles, low-performance motorcycles, animal-driven carriages and other slow-moving vehicles are not permitted on the motorways.
Source: Motorways of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bold part is done in India too. So why the drastic difference in speed limit laws?

Coming back to the original topic of discussion, I think this is a lesson for the chauffeur driven ones here that their driver needs basic professional training in safe driving practices.

I had a chat with Mr. Pradeep Nair of Automission Motorsports back in May/June 2010 at his dirt track in Khopoli when we had discussed such issues. He happened to tell me that they do in fact have 1/2-day courses for training Chauffeurs in safe driving practices.

Quote:
Advance Driving School

International Rally Cross champion drivers as instructors, to impart advance driving training over a full day with special focus on Car Control and Advance Driving Techniques. Which include Slide Control (Drifting), Braking (Hand Brake Turns), Throttle Control.

All in all being more in control of the car while being Safer, Smoother and more stylish, causing less wear and tear to the car and yet being faster. By the end of the day, you will be left gasping for air with your heart racing. An intensely exhilarating and extensive day behind specially prepared FIA compliant Rally Cars.
People do in fact get their Drivers to take the course because after all it is their own live which is in the hands of their Driver.

P.S.: I am in no way affiliated with Automission. There may be other schools which offer a similar course so please look around but training IMHO is essential so I had to mention this one here.
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:12   #68
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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With due respect to the law / rules, I beg to slightly differ here.
Very briefly, I had posted a clarification on page 2 of the thread. The original title would lead one to believe that ABS caused the accident.

In actual fact (and this is something I have personally experienced), ABS saves lives. In emergency braking you will feel it as a heavy judder under your foot. In soaking wet rain you will see no loss in traction under braking, with steering input continuing to work.

It has saved my skin (rather, my car's skin) in the crazy Gurgaon traffic. You have to drive here once in your life to know what monumental stupidity can achieve when it is coupled with new and fast money and cars.

The only instances where ABS does not work well for you is when you are at very low speeds and on very rough surfaces with very low grip, such as a road with lots of gravel or slush. You should be actually crawling at this speed, but we have bikers, people, cows and three-wheeled apparitions who will cut you off without warning beforehand or apology afterward. In those situations the tyres will simply slide, but then a car without ABS would behave similarly.
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:21   #69
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

Two weeks back, a friend's SX4 (I belive non-ABS) met with a similar accident on the expressway. What was surprising was that the car toppled and did multiple cartwheels before coming to a stop. There was no other vehicle involved. I was really surprised that a sedan could topple and roll. Was wondering, whether the power-steering and sudden jerk to the steering at decently high-speeds could cause it? Any thoughts?
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:32   #70
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
If the car has seat belt pre-tensioner and a transducer connected to the air-bag circuit then and only then would the air-bags deploy only when the seat belt is buckled.

If there is no pretensioner, then air-bags deploy independently and are not interlinked to buckling.


Hello Anil,

Just want to know what is the system in ANHC, it does have pre tensioner in seat belts. So does it mean in case of impact if there is only driver in the car then only 1 airbag on steering will deploy, provided seat belt is worn.
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Old 15th September 2011, 17:53   #71
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
First and foremost, The speed limits we have in our country are sometimes downright absurd. ...
Believe me it is not a very comfortable position to be in when constantly at the back of your mind you would be thinking which car would just crash into you from behind when you try to overtake the trailer truck going ahead of you at 55kmph.
...

Source: Motorways of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...
At the risk of digressing from the original topic, I must say the speed limits imposed in our country are because we aren't yet mature, as vehicle owners and also as drivers. While calling the speed limits downright absurd, you are conveniently forgetting that almost all the accidents which took place on the expressways could have very well been avoided (or at least become non-fatal) if the respective drivers had been abiding by the speed limits imposed. The speed limits aren't imposed by illiterate road workers. The government does take into account all the different vehicles which will ply onto the road and accordingly imposes the limits. To say these limits are absurd just because you happen to own a fast car is in fact absurd.

Perhaps in Pakistan they don't impose speed limits because they never know when a bomb will explode there. j/k

ABS or no ABS, if you followed the speed limits you wouldn't see so many accidents. That's a fact.
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Old 15th September 2011, 18:02   #72
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

When my Skoda was new i remember taking it to the A.S.S guy asking him to tighten the brakes. Then from Team-Bhp i learnt how to drive with ABS....(just stomp the brakes and hold) and realised that the shuddering feeling was just ABS kicking in.
Well, i still prefer the old non-ABS brakes, but know that this is a life saving safety feature. I also tell my friends about using ABS the proper way.

Btw Keyur appreciate that you took time out to help...a good samarition.
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Old 15th September 2011, 18:03   #73
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

The driver's story is incomplete, and has too many loopholes. And yes, there is no way he was cruising at 100 - 120. Even if you brake hard for 3 - 4 seconds at 100 - 120, you lose 40 kph easily. Looking at the impact, his speed was 120ish after hitting the brake pedal. In all likelihood, he was doing 140ish, and saw something at the nth moment (a car? a pedestrian? a rock?). Swerved + braked really hard to avoid impact, which led to a complete loss of control.

There are one too many powerful SUVs driven by inexperienced drivers who don't understand the meaning of roll-over & higher center of gravity. I've seen several Fortuners (especially) lying turtle on MH highways. Equally, I am dead certain that if these nincompoops were in a sedan, the results would have been less catastrophic.

Right after an entertaining drive on the Nasik-Mumbai highway, my brother & I stopped for a Marlboro at the Bhiwandi bypass toll naka. Deep in our conversation, we feel something large whooooooooooosh by. The two of us nod to each other, hoping he doesn't knock someone down. Jump back in the car, hit the first long flyover and guess what? The same Landcruiser is lying sideways on the road. Obviously, he took the left-hander too fast, lost control, hit the divider and toppled. Within hours, I see a picture of the LC on Team-BHP (accidents in India thread).

@ Keyur : You are a hero to stop, help and use first-aid on the injured. Thanks for setting an example for the rest of us.

Last edited by GTO : 15th September 2011 at 18:11.
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Old 15th September 2011, 18:03   #74
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by Vtecguy7166 View Post
Hello Anil,

Just want to know what is the system in ANHC, it does have pre tensioner in seat belts. So does it mean in case of impact if there is only driver in the car then only 1 airbag on steering will deploy, provided seat belt is worn.
honestly I do not know.But it is wrong to assume that. Because there can be a common transducer to both and the trigger mechanism can also be common. But yes ideally if there are pretensioners, it should be a good idea to have independent triggering mechanism for driver and passenger side air-bags.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devansn View Post
When an old woman tries to cross a road (not through a zebra line) and a vehicle is approaching, one can very well honk her away (even if he / she can slow down the vehicle, and let her cross) and continue in the posted "speed limit", and be content in doing nothing "illegal". But to me, it is unethical and I would call people who do that "the weak".

I learned something today - its not only asking people to wear their seatbelt that ruins relations, its also my inability to elaborate things.
Ah! I think you really misrepresented yourself, I got what you wanted to say now- use discretion!! So don't mind and no offence meant!!

Last edited by anilisanil : 15th September 2011 at 18:26.
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Old 15th September 2011, 19:20   #75
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
honestly I do not know.But it is wrong to assume that. Because there can be a common transducer to both and the trigger mechanism can also be common. But yes ideally if there are pretensioners, it should be a good idea to have independent triggering mechanism for driver and passenger side air-bags.
I have seen a switch in many cars which allows you to turn off passenger side air bag like what's found in Hyundai i20.
What is the case in those car's? Lets for example take an i20.
If I were to switch off passenger side airbag and I have a co-passenger in the seat buckled up. Will the airbags deploy?
Similarly, if I were not to put seat belts being a driver then will the airbags deploy on impact?
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