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Old 16th September 2011, 11:32   #91
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

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Originally Posted by anilisanil
I am talking this from experience, if for whatever reasons you stall the engine, forget ABS even your brakes do not work and Power steering goes dead and if you are an atheist, those few secs would leave you wondering what to do!!

I stalled my car (for reasons different than incorrect gear) on a curve and ended up spin wheeling with no control whatsoever on brakes and steering!
anilisanil, I know where you're coming from. I have read your stalling escapades with the Figo and for good or bad, it is making you ready for handling panic situations.

I have enrolled for the Ford "Driving Skills for Life" on Sunday. Hope they will be able to provide some concrete answers.
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Old 16th September 2011, 11:48   #92
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

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Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
First and foremost, The speed limits we have in our country are sometimes downright absurd. I have seen 4-lane with concrete median roads in India with a speed limit of 40. Tell me who can follow speed limits on such roads.
....
I would be very very very scared. Not because I am driving too fast or too close to the speed limit. But because everybody would be overtaking me at speeds nearly 2 times I am doing. ...

What would you do at that time?....


... The next logical thing to do is to introduce a minimum speed limit on such access-controlled 'super' highways such that traveling here at speeds of 80 or below should in fact be illegal and anyone driving 'slower' should be fined....

.....
The bold part is done in India too. So why the drastic difference in speed limit laws?

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by devansn View Post
When an old woman tries to cross a road (not through a zebra line) and a vehicle is approaching, one can very well honk her away (even if he / she can slow down the vehicle, and let her cross) and continue in the posted "speed limit", and be content in doing nothing "illegal". But to me, it is unethical and I would call people who do that "the weak".

I learned something today - its not only asking people to wear their seatbelt that ruins relations, its also my inability to elaborate things.
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Originally Posted by devansn View Post
Again, extremely sorry for not elaborating my usage of "the weak" - "The weak" to me are the ones who cannot judge their limitations and act accordingly. In situations where even the posted speed limits are dangerous, for instance, when it rains for the first time in a season and the road is slippery due to all that dust, even a person driving in the legal speed limit could cause an accident. The speed limits are posted for people who are not so good in judging road conditions and acting accordingly - but thats only one step to complete safety. In a lot of scenarios driving "legally" need not avoid all kinds of accidents and inconveniences to fellow beings.

I am surprised to see that till now no one of us, we are proud BHPians(except suhass, he tried to touch on this), has pointed out that speed limits are not decided in keeping your car/vehicle in mind, they are there because of road conditions like build quality, material used, bends, prevailing weather conditions etc. there is no “dangerously slow speed limit”. Assigning road signs and speed limits is science and people deciding these are well educated (like Transport Engg.).

That also explains the speed limit difference in different countries. Pakistan has much better roads (at least in big cities like Karachi, Lahore) since British raj.

Please, follow the speed limits these are there for a reason. These are not imposed on whim. These are not imposed by TATA owners to slow down the BMWs to 80kmph. If BMW is doing 200kmph on 80kmph speed limit, it doesn’t mean you should start racing too! Or does it? Try to report him, stop him, warn him, if these are not options let him do what he is doing, he will learn his lessons sooner or later. Just pray that he doesn’t learn them hard way. Because everyone thinks like “if he is doing 200, I can at least do 140 because my car and I can do that”, that causes the chaos we see on our roads.


I wouldn’t recommend and it is illegal too to judge your speed limit yourself. Remember judgments are subjective. You should be using your judgment in avoiding accidents rather than speeding and racing. If road is bad with mud and rain water or oil spill or poor visibility or anything which can cause you lose the control of your vehicle, you should slow down till you are confident and keep (increase in case of bad road conditions) distance from other vehicles.

Following speed limits doesn’t give you license to overrun others even if it’s there mistake and it’s illegal downright even if you were in speed limits.

Follow the rules, speed limits, overtake only when you have clear view ahead and don’t overtake where overtaking is forbidden (with solid lines on road surface) and first and foremost be tolerant to the mistakes of others. Everyone makes mistake.

Last edited by Suess : 16th September 2011 at 11:50.
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Old 16th September 2011, 13:27   #93
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

One can't blame ABS for the accident, it's human error that resulted in the Captiva to be written off. ABS=Braking sans drama, I have been driving an ABS/All round discs car for last 5.5 years and the confidence it gives is enormous. I think it will be difficult to adjust the braking distances now if I drive a non ABS car. My advice is stick to ABS even if it means slightly over budget, God knows when you'll need it.
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Old 16th September 2011, 13:27   #94
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Back when I had a non-ABS Accent I was cruising at around 80+ on Link Road somewhere near where Fun Republic is now (yes it was possible back then )

This cyclist appeared out of nowhere and I had to brake HARD. I could do this "safely" since I knew there was nobody directly behind me. So I did, and to my shock the car skidded and moved *laterally* so that I ended up at near-standstill in the left lane. There was a poor guy driving sedately just behind me in the left lane and he had to brake hard to stop as well. Luckily there was no impact but it was scary as hell.

My point is: even though the car did skid, I did not *stop* braking. No sane driver would. So blaming ABS etc. is pointless: my suspicion is that this guy is just a bad driver. Doing 100-120 approaching a tollbooth is just stupid.
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Old 16th September 2011, 14:09   #95
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suess View Post
here it is:

HowStuffWorks "The ABS System"

to read about it:

Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

here is excellent video from Robest Bosch, the inventors of ABS:

Antilock Braking System ABS

and excellent resource on info about ABS/ESP:

Safe braking with the ABS

for more videos you can search youtube there are several videos on it.

how this helps to understand better.
Thanks for the links, Suess. Helped me understand ABS.

Keyur: Knowing you, I am not at all surprised you helped the people who met with accident and that you had a first aid kit handy. Good on ya mate.

I am among those who do not read the instruction manual and this thread made me go through the videos posted by Suess and now I understand ABS better than few mins ago.
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Old 16th September 2011, 14:10   #96
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Drive safe guys. This seems to be a majority of driver error. Still adhereing to speed limits is important. And speeding when a toll booth is ahead is careless speeding if I may add.

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
My point is: even though the car did skid, I did not *stop* braking. No sane driver would. So blaming ABS etc. is pointless: my suspicion is that this guy is just a bad driver. Doing 100-120 approaching a tollbooth is just stupid.
Very true noops. I think that the driver must have slammed the brakes thinking that he might not stop in time. Thus the ABS kicked in and he might have felt vibrations. I shock he must have thought that the wheels have locked up. And he ended up in this shunt.

Though there seems a very minute possibility of the ABS failing.

Zap
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Old 16th September 2011, 17:30   #97
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by keyur View Post
What's with you and the speed limits and ABS?
ABS kicks in when :
1. There is relative speed difference after braking
2. There is sudden deceleration due to braking (not gradual).

This has nothing to do with speed!
Let me clarify again.

Speed has to do with the driver's ability to react, and therefore whether or not ABS activates. In this case it is because someone was at a speed above both the recommended envelope and their personal abilities and experience, and then could not react appropriately when confronted with an unfamiliar situation. Even in the cases you have mentioned, if the surface and tyre are very grippy (hot road and tyres) the extent of ABS activating will be very low. It only prevents wheels from locking, so that you have traction at all times when braking. It does not retard or enhance actual braking performance (theoretically a little shorter stopping distance, but that varies by implementation).

As for the speed limit, it is mentioned keeping in mind at what distances obstacles become apparent, the nature of the road and all its users, and the average stopping time of every different kind of vehicle on the road.

Once you are outside those limits you are on your own and cannot blame the machinery for failures. It's like overclocking a computer. You can do it and do it safely and push everything beyond recommended spec (and even compete for the highest levels of push), but you cannot blame the hardware for failures, loss of money or warranty.

To get back to this situation - had the speed been lower, panic braking may not have been necessary -> no ABS would have kicked in -> the pedal action would have been normal -> the driver would not have panicked -> accident would not have happened.

Let's assume the car was travelling at 140 km/h at the point in time the brakes were applied, this is about 38 meters per second. At 80 km/h the speed is about 22 meters per second. In the 7-8 seconds of a braking action required the car would have travelled an additional 50 meters if it was at the higher speed, which means the obstacle had to be seen 50 meters before it actually appeared.

Also keep in mind I have not accounted for the much higher (2x) braking forces required to slow down something with much more momentum. In reality from 60mph the total braking distance (to zero) is close to 130 meters (panic braking including a one second delay between recognising the obstacle and applying the brake) for an average European sedan. From 50mph the distance is close to 80-90 meters. At 100mph the distance is close to 250 meters. These are very long distances, you have to see a 100 meter track to understand what we are talking about.

I really respect your fortitude in stopping to help. Much admired and one of the things I wished I had done. However not sure that the accident was due to ABS, but an irresponsible and inexperienced driver. That's all.

Frankly, the first time I felt ABS working it scared the hell out of me, but in that case I kept my foot buried as hard as I could as I didn't have an option. I was at about 90 and a trailer decided my lane was more appetising than the one they were on. I had no choice but to keep it buried because I would have gone under the trailer, the car stayed on line, obeyed the steering, and slowed down sufficiently to avoid any mishap. Since then, I know exactly what to expect and thank the manufacturer for putting it in there.

Last edited by cranky : 16th September 2011 at 17:33.
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Old 17th September 2011, 20:17   #98
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Default Re: Accident caused due to Unawareness of ABS Behavior

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Originally Posted by Vtecguy7166 View Post
I have seen a switch in many cars which allows you to turn off passenger side air bag like what's found in Hyundai i20.
What is the case in those car's? Lets for example take an i20.
If I were to switch off passenger side airbag and I have a co-passenger in the seat buckled up. Will the airbags deploy?
Similarly, if I were not to put seat belts being a driver then will the airbags deploy on impact?
For first question, answer is no.
In my Punto, there is an option to disable passenger airbag. This is provided to disable airbag when using a child seat in the passenger seat kept backwards. If airbag is activated in such a scenario it is likely to be more dangerous to the child than the accident itself.
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Old 20th September 2011, 23:34   #99
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down



Its not very difficult to flip a car.
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Old 20th September 2011, 23:49   #100
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
If while sliding the tyres suddenly found traction, wouldn't the car stop going in the existing direction and change directions?

Let's say the driver is at around 120kmph. He sees an obstacle up ahead, say about 50 metres, and slams onto the brakes, at the same time trying to steer left. Now, the wheels lock up just as they are changing directions and so the car starts skidding towards the obstacle, not head-on, but say at a small angle such that if the slide continued, the RHS headlight/skirting would hit the obstacle first.
In the above Bold scenario, there can be 2 cases:

Case 1: The driver is a Moron. Because at the speed of 120kmph, 50 meters would take 1.5 seconds. I don't think even a Bugatti Veyron, with its huge brakes and 265/365 section front/rear tyres would be able to stop that fast. So, unless he was driving a car which can do 120-0 in less than 1.5 seconds, he should get off the gas pedal waay before the 'obstruction' is just 50 meters away, at which time, the tyres WILL LOCK UP if no ABS. Even if there is ABS, the risk sill is waay to big.

Case 2: The obstacle (assuming an errant (motor)cyclist or pedestrian) is a moron. Even though the moron in question doesn't value his/her life enough to live very long, it is our duty to save this pathetic life by trying to not hit him as it would be a big inconvenience for us if this moron is hit. People here who have hit a Pedestrian / cyclist on the road will understand what I mean by 'inconvenience'.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 16:48   #101
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Most off the SUVs are front heavy and bound to dig in on hard breaking ,and with a combination off a fool of a driver who know not how an ABS work we have what we have!!!
Educating expressway/any highway users is the only solution to avoid/control situations!!
my experiences include:
hazard lights in the tunnels
high beams
overtaking left right and center
sudden lane changes
chaos compounded by 16 wheelers/buses doing a drag on the exway!!

Lucky those guys got off light!! Someone was watching over them!! and thanx to air bags and belts!!
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Old 22nd September 2011, 21:51   #102
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

A very unfortunate incident. rather scary. Thank god that both the occupants are safe.

When trying to arriving at a conclusion about how this accident really happened, Iím more worried about the prospective ones in front. So far not thought about this kind of a scenario at all.

Many of us enjoy being chauffeur driven regularly or occasionally. However, when we hand over the keys to another person (an employed driver) not really aware of the new age automobiles and the nuances of it, I think itís a scary situation. This is the time to really look at ourselves to see if we have oriented the driver enough about the technicalities of the vehicle. Iím sure any member of T-BHP can do that easily. But what about others?

Doesnít it make sense to have a simulator setup at every car showroom for us drivers to experiment how the ABS, Air Bags and other safety features work at time of an incident? To teach the drivers that they should wear seat belts for the Air Bags to kick in..! To show them the implications if they adjust Steering/Seats while driving? Should we start demanding this need to every car manufacturer in India?

ABS is definitely an experience itself for a person who knows every theory about it from its origin; then think about a person whoís is completely unaware of what it is. Will freak out for sure when the break lever vibrates when ABS kicks-in and surely think the brakes are faulty..!!
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Old 23rd September 2011, 14:14   #103
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

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Originally Posted by rdhan View Post

hazard lights in the tunnels
I used to think I was the only one getting irritated by this!
This, I would term as stupid. Someone should really tell these guys that hazard lights are for hazards. Just turn on your headlights in the tunnels

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhan View Post
high beams
I agree on this too, but there are so many trucks with no taillights and no reflectors (or covered by mud) that without the high beams it is impossible to notice them till you have rear-ed them. At such times, the decision is between your safety (by turning on the hi-beams) and the oncoming guy's inconvenience (due to the hi-beams). It's obvious that we choose the high beams!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhan View Post
overtaking left right and center
sudden lane changes

nothing to say here! This is further compounded by people who turn on their hazard lights!

Last edited by Rehaan : 23rd September 2011 at 16:45. Reason: Please don't post in all bold text. Thanks.
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Old 23rd September 2011, 21:10   #104
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

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Originally Posted by Indicruz View Post
Doesnít it make sense to have a simulator setup at every car showroom for us drivers to experiment how the ABS, Air Bags and other safety features work at time of an incident? To teach the drivers that they should wear seat belts for the Air Bags to kick in..! To show them the implications if they adjust Steering/Seats while driving? Should we start demanding this need to every car manufacturer in India?
Is it true that, Air bags have interlock with seat belts? Any Indian models have this implemented?

My first experience of ABS kicking-in was, when I tried hard braking in loose gravel. It was on a test drive vehicle, with one wheel on tarmac and other one on loose gravel. It was not that bad when you are expecting it.
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Old 23rd September 2011, 22:51   #105
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Default Re: Driver ignorant of how ABS works; Turns Chevy Captiva upside down

Indian roads are't designed for 100 kmph + speed. Freeways in Europe/US can handle these kind of speeds. Occupants of the car are very lucky.
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