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Old 24th June 2015, 08:50   #18046
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

One of the possible measures to avoid such incidents, IMO, is generous use of horns when you see a pedestrian at the middle of the road. When the bolero spotted the lady around 25-30 ft ahead, it should have sounded horn, multiple times possibly. The lady would become aware that a vehicle is approaching from that direction. The video shows that she certainly had no idea which side of the road she needs to cross and when. Maybe a loud honk would have helped her to understand the risk.
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Old 24th June 2015, 08:59   #18047
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Here are my calculations and interpretations.

From the picture I understand that the lady bent down to pick up that purse at about 7 seconds of the video time. The car hit her at about 9 seconds. Which means the bolero driver had only 2 seconds to see, process and react. But is the car capable of executing the drivers response? what is the braking distance of a bolero?

Lets calculate the speed of the car. I am taking a hypothesis that the distance between the car and lady at 7 seconds video time was about 50 meters. SO, the car took 2 seconds to travel that 50 meters. Speed = distance / time >> 50 meters / 2 seconds >> 90 kms per hour. This I think is a decent speed to hit on highways and at this speed there was no chance that the bolero would have come to a standstill. Not even a Toyota corolla would have stopped at that distance. Had it been a Ferrari, yes.

If you think the distance was more than 50 meters, then the bolero driver was driving at even higher speeds. Given the screeching sound on account of applied brakes, I don't think the distance between them would have been less than 50 meters; had it been then the bolero would have been travelling at a lesser speed which wouldn't have emitted a screeching sound while braking.

In my opinion, the lady made the biggest blunder of her life. Sorry for her.
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Old 24th June 2015, 10:27   #18048
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeep3in View Post
I would say the bolero driver is at fault, he had sufficient time to anticipate what was happening in front of him and i believe his thought was that the lady would stand in the middle of the carriageway and he could drive around .

The above statement doesn't mean that the lady is not at fault but when driving you should expect the unexpected and be cautious.

The picture itself is a clue to tell he had sufficient time in hand to be cautious.
I would have to disagree with you on this instance. I'm not implementing that driving on the highway entitles one to be careless and unassuming but such scenarios tend to induce panic thereby reducing one's reflexes to quite some extent. Therefore, it's easy to have opinions by watching the event from a 3rd person perspective as opposed to experiencing it in real-life i.e. in this case, the Bolero driver.

Having said that, if you loop the video from the 7 sec. mark, you can see the vehicle was unsettled and had lost traction before the moment it appeared in the frame suggesting he was braking quite earlier than what is being presumed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Exactly at 8 Seconds, he brakes and even swerves (or may be that is how his vehicle behaved upon panic braking) as he witnesses something amiss since the lady bends down to pick that purse and by now the driver possibly anticipates her to walk ahead but she walks/runs back! Game over.

On the speed of the vehicle, I cannot really call him faster than other as you notice cars that passed before this were equally faster too.

A tricky one this was!
I couldn't have said it better myself. I can't really see him speeding much faster than any of the previous vehicles.
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Old 24th June 2015, 10:36   #18049
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Can't believe the discussion is going on for so many posts. The lady is at fault. You walk into highway at your own peril. Clearly the lady lacked traffic sense.

PS: Bolero driver assumed the lady was crossing over and hence didn't make any *early* attempt to slow down. He wanted to pass behind her. Only when the driver realized the lady was turning back, he braked but couldn't stop in time. He didn't practice defensive driving and can't hold him responsible for that.
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Old 24th June 2015, 10:54   #18050
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Looks like the incident happened at an intersection.There is a zebra crossing right next to the where the lady crossed. Adding to the Bolero drivers bad luck is the wet road.
I guess he had a green and hence was hurrying when the lady decided to be stupid.
ABS on the Bolero would have saved her with injuries .From the impact in the video,I highly doubt if she did.
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Old 24th June 2015, 11:14   #18051
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

When you are going to do something like that, you have to make sure that the traffic is clear enough to make that maneuver.

I don't see any fault with the Bolero driver if he is within speed limit on that road. From the video I don't think it is possible to find out what speed the Bolero was doing. But if he is above speed limit, I think he will have to be booked. Because there are reasons, such as traffic density, pedestrian crossings, road width, etc, Indian highway authorities have fixed max speed limit for each road.

I would say it was fate that took the life of the lady, had it been anything else less worthy than the purse, the lady probably might have given a lot more thought and time.

May good times be with her and her family! God bless.
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Old 24th June 2015, 11:36   #18052
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

If I too add another armchair judgement here over this Bolero-lady interaction, I'd proportion the blame as 52% - 48% leaning towards the lady.

If one gets caught in such a scenario, IMO the best thing is to stay rooted in one place and let the driver navigate around you. But to begin with, the lady should have taken a good look around rather than be in a hurry, which she seems to be in, since her focus was only on getting the bag back in her hands. She should have ideally picked it up, had a good look around, then decided what to do. Anyways, too late now. But ideal study case.
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Old 24th June 2015, 12:47   #18053
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy
Can't believe the discussion is going on for so many posts. The lady is at fault. You walk into highway at your own peril. Clearly the lady lacked traffic sense.
No one is denying that the lady should've been more careful - for her own good. But that does not absolve the Bolero guy from his part of the mistake. Especially when you consider that
(1) this is not a highway where pedestrians are banned.
(2) a zebra crossing and a stop line can be seen in the video, which makes it clear that pedestrians are expected on this road (not the contrary).
(3) and if 2 is true, then it is the responsibility of the motorist to drive accordingly.

Though the accompanying text in the FB post is in Malayalam, not sure if it happened in Kerala. But if it did, then having pedestrians on the highway is more the norm than an exception, given the peculiar road/traffic/population-density situation in Kerala. So mowing down pedestrians loitering on the highway is not an option here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy
Bolero driver assumed the lady was crossing over and hence didn't make any *early* attempt to slow down. He wanted to pass behind her. Only when the driver realized the lady was turning back, he braked but couldn't stop in time. He didn't practice defensive driving and can't hold him responsible for that.
Making assumptions (especially ones that are proven wrong later) are no excuse. Defensive driving might not be required by law, but anticipatory driving definitely is - especially in such scenarios where one ends up causing loss of life or property.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:28   #18054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VW2010 View Post
Thad, when you check the video you will realize the road is similar to ECR and in this case even comparing with previous cars on the road the bolera was definitely over speeding. His reaction was literally from 15-25 feet which is when he even noticed that there was a lady. Now it could have been a curve which again puts back the question of speed there.

The lady took the purse and started running which also means she misread the distance from next vehicle to her.

The Bolero had a bullbar the topic of hot discussion we always have. The deadliest sin in indian roads according to me.

To me its a combination of overspeeding, casualness and absolutely disrespect of rules from both the lady and the car driver.

Irrespective of what, pedestrians needs to be saved and you do what ever it takes, from driving slow to taking a hit and avoiding the pedestrian.

In this case as well the bolero did try to not hit her but she ran into the bolero. Had she walked or simply stayed after seeing the bolero the direction the driver took was to avoid her.

Hope she survives which i think is going to be very difficult considering the speed of hit, place of hit and her actual body motion. just slow down the video and we can learn to respect speed for various reasons. It gives me chill.


If only the bolero drove at sane speed in a non median two lane, two way traffic, he would have had a chance to actually stop or graced her instead of probably killing her.

@Thad, Are you headfi forum with same user name
(yes, several other forums, although I have largey given up the audiophile nonsense these days)

Your post is reasonable and balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Exactly at 8 Seconds, he brakes and even swerves (or may be that is how his vehicle behaved upon panic braking) as he witnesses something amiss since the lady bends down to pick that purse and by now the driver possibly anticipates her to walk ahead but she walks/runs back! Game over.

On the speed of the vehicle, I cannot really call him faster than other as you notice cars that passed before this were equally faster too.

A tricky one this was!
It is not tricky. One of my Dad's early driving lessons to me: "When do pedestrians have right of way?" Answer, after much teasing and saying no to all my quotes from the UK highway code: "Always. You must not run them over."

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlybull View Post
The bolero lady was on a suicide mission here. Scantly looking at the oncoming traffic and treating a busy road like her backyard. Clearly she valued that purse more than her life and took a risk and miscalculated.

Can't blame the Bolero guy too much in this case except that he could have been driving slower. There was no way he could have guessed that she was going to pick up an object on the road and scram back without even looking in the proper direction. He did try to save her, we can see he swerved to the left while slamming the brakes. If she didn't bolt back like an animal she would have escaped the hit.
There should be no guesswork. Life should not rely on guesses. When you see a pedestrian, especially in a circumstance like this, you consider that they might do anything. Please keep guessing off the roads.

(By the way: what if it was a cow or a dog? What, or how whould they be expected to "think" and behave?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
No doubt the lady should not have walked on to the road. However, we have to be realistic. Unfortunately there are a lot of people crossing major roads and highways in India. When a driver sees a pedestrian near the road, he should slow down to be on the safe side. If the pedestrian is actually ON the road then the driver MUST slow down and even stop to ensure the safety of the pedestrian. Unfortunately there are many irresponsible drivers who speed even when children are walking on the roads.

Pedestrians should also be stopped from walking on the roads but that is a different topic. End result is that no one cares about safety.
Yes, she was stupid. People are stupid. I'd rather have a stupid pedestrian than a stupid, irresponsible, bad, dangerous driver. With bull bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ankan.m.blr View Post
One of the possible measures to avoid such incidents, IMO, is generous use of horns when you see a pedestrian at the middle of the road. When the bolero spotted the lady around 25-30 ft ahead, it should have sounded horn, multiple times possibly. The lady would become aware that a vehicle is approaching from that direction. The video shows that she certainly had no idea which side of the road she needs to cross and when. Maybe a loud honk would have helped her to understand the risk.
Maybe it would. The horn should be used to alert others to danger. I use mine often when coming behind pedestrians on narrow roads. But here is another of Thad's Dad's lessons. Specific to this sort of situation, he asked me, "And what if they are deaf?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Can't believe the discussion is going on for so many posts. The lady is at fault. You walk into highway at your own peril. Clearly the lady lacked traffic sense.
This has to have a strong response: Rubbish!

Whilst almost all accidents are avoidable, a few are not. As I have said, if someone walks out, five feet in front of our car, even at slow speed, we will hit them. As a driver, this is possibly the thing that I dread the most, especially thinking of children.

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 24th June 2015 at 13:29.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:59   #18055
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post

There should be no guesswork. Life should not rely on guesses. When you see a pedestrian, especially in a circumstance like this, you consider that they might do anything. Please keep guessing off the roads.

(By the way: what if it was a cow or a dog? What, or how whould they be expected to "think" and behave?)
I agree with you Thad...you are going by the rule book and technically the Bolero driver has to be blamed as he caused a loss of life.

Not sure if there was a signal too, at that Zebra crossing, but if there was , the lady should have only crossed the road when it turned green for pedestrians. If there was no signal, the Bolero should have absolutely stopped/slowed down well in advance.

Maybe guess was the wrong word I chose, call it anticipation if you will. Practically speaking we all use anticipation everyday while driving. When it goes terribly wrong, you have a incident like this.

The unfortunate lady acted much like a frightened animal in this case, and paid dearly for it. In India you have to watch your own back, can't rely on rules and expect others will follow them. Maybe in a perfect world everyone does everything one is supposed to do and we would not have any accidents too.
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Old 24th June 2015, 14:10   #18056
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
The lady is at fault. You walk into highway at your own peril. Clearly the lady lacked traffic sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
If the pedestrian is actually ON the road then the driver MUST slow down and even stop to ensure the safety of the pedestrian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
This has to have a strong response: Rubbish!.
I understand where you are coming from. But lets consider the sequence:
1) Pedestrians must assess the traffic and then step on to road when it is absolutely careful to do.
2) Drivers must slow down when there are pedestrians on road.

Now the failures:
1st failure: Lady didn't show any inclination of assessing traffic. She just stepped on the road.
2nd failure: Driver couldn't stop or didn't stop when there was a pedestrian.

The lady acted which caused the driver to react. Hence I pinned the fault on the lady. Let me know if I am wrong here.
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Old 24th June 2015, 14:22   #18057
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Come on let us get over with this.

It is very easy to be wise in hindsight. Are all of sure we could have done better as the driver there. Why blame the driver as coming at xx speed. If ypu cross a road it is your utmost importance to judge the traffic before crossing.
Please let us move on. Request to refrain from further autopsy on this case.
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Old 24th June 2015, 14:30   #18058
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
It is not tricky. One of my Dad's early driving lessons to me: "When do pedestrians have right of way?" Answer, after much teasing and saying no to all my quotes from the UK highway code: "Always. You must not run them over."
One of those unlucky souls who wasn't educated about the right of way for pedestrians knowing that in our country anyone can cross the road even on a super fast & fenced expressway and that's the reality. Its too easy to obtain a driving licence.

We are a country who know "right of way" means having the headlights ON.

We can go on and on just talking about this one particular accident finding faults in both the parties. We can also have a long discussion on how under- privileged are a majority of the driving class here who do not even know about defensive and anticipatory driving techniques, let alone make a guess that the lady would start walking in the reverse direction.

Anyway - Where are the pictures in this thread?

Last edited by paragsachania : 24th June 2015 at 14:31.
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Old 24th June 2015, 22:45   #18059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
I understand where you are coming from. But lets consider the sequence:
1) Pedestrians must assess the traffic and then step on to road when it is absolutely careful to do.
2) Drivers must slow down when there are pedestrians on road.

Now the failures:
1st failure: Lady didn't show any inclination of assessing traffic. She just stepped on the road.
2nd failure: Driver couldn't stop or didn't stop when there was a pedestrian.

The lady acted which caused the driver to react. Hence I pinned the fault on the lady. Let me know if I am wrong here.
You are generally correct except the fact that you are overlooking your own point 2 above (derived from my post). The driver of the Bolero saw the lady from some distance but did not slow down. If you see a pedestrian NEAR the road, you should slow down from say 90 to at least 40 - 50 to be safe while you observe what the pedestrian does. Then you either stop to let them go as a courtsey if it is safe to do so or you honk to warn them. If you see a pedestrian actually ON the road, you MUST slow to a crawl and stop regardless of who has the right of the way. If you have a green light but can see that there is a car stuck in the middle of the road or is jumping the signal, you wouldn't just hit it because it was your right of the way? Similarly even if a pedestrian is wrong on being on the road, the driver has to protect her as far as possible. Pedestrians need to be fined and educated on this matter as well but that is not what we are discussing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
You are generally correct except the fact that you are overlooking your own point 2 above (derived from my post). The driver of the Bolero saw the lady from some distance but did not slow down. If you see a pedestrian NEAR the road, you should slow down from say 90 to at least 40 - 50 to be safe while you observe what the pedestrian does. Then you either stop to let them go as a courtsey if it is safe to do so or you honk to warn them. If you see a pedestrian actually ON the road, you MUST slow to a crawl and stop regardless of who has the right of the way. If you have a green light but can see that there is a car stuck in the middle of the road or is jumping the signal, you wouldn't just hit it because it was your right of the way? Similarly even if a pedestrian is wrong on being on the road, the driver has to protect her as far as possible. Pedestrians need to be fined and educated on this matter as well but that is not what we are discussing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Exactly at 8 Seconds, he brakes and even swerves (or may be that is how his vehicle behaved upon panic braking) as he witnesses something amiss since the lady bends down to pick that purse and by now the driver possibly anticipates her to walk ahead but she walks/runs back! Game over.

On the speed of the vehicle, I cannot really call him faster than other as you notice cars that passed before this were equally faster too.

A tricky one this was!
The Bolero seemed faster than other vehicles. Look at the speed at which the car before the Bolero passed without braking. The Bolero hit the lady at around the same speed even after braking hard for some feet. Secondly, why assume anything when a pedestrian in on the road? A driver must slow down in the interest of safety.

Last edited by benbsb29 : 25th June 2015 at 04:48. Reason: Merging back-to-back posts. Please use the Multi-Quote option to reply to more than one post at a time. Thanks.
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Old 25th June 2015, 01:23   #18060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlybull View Post
Maybe guess was the wrong word I chose, call it anticipation if you will. Practically speaking we all use anticipation everyday while driving. When it goes terribly wrong, you have a incident like this.
I sort of knew what you meant. Just making the point!

Quote:
The unfortunate lady acted much like a frightened animal in this case, and paid dearly for it. In India you have to watch your own back, can't rely on rules and expect others will follow them. Maybe in a perfect world everyone does everything one is supposed to do and we would not have any accidents too.
Everybody, including you and me, will act like a frightened animal when we find a vehicle coming at us. A driver just might do something more sensible than a non-driver, but it is all going to depend on how sudden it all is and how scared we are.

This is what we must expect from pedestrians on the road.


Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
I understand where you are coming from. But lets consider the sequence:
1) Pedestrians must assess the traffic and then step on to road when it is absolutely careful to do.
2) Drivers must slow down when there are pedestrians on road.

Now the failures:
1st failure: Lady didn't show any inclination of assessing traffic. She just stepped on the road.
2nd failure: Driver couldn't stop or didn't stop when there was a pedestrian.

The lady acted which caused the driver to react. Hence I pinned the fault on the lady. Let me know if I am wrong here.
You are not exactly wrong, but what makes all the difference is that the pedestrian is not the one driving the machine that kills. In the end, that it is the trump card that puts the major part of the responsibility in the hands of the driver.
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