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Old 12th April 2016, 18:14   #20266
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Old 12th April 2016, 20:15   #20267
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Whatever 'adventure' and 'excitement' the motorcycle industry loves to portray alongside these contraptions - these are nothing but machines of death. There will be no Ralph Nader to ban this industry, because hardly anyone in the developed world rides two wheelers.

This thread seems the most suitable for a discussion on this news:

Prominent woman biker Veenu Paliwal dies in road accident in MP

Quote:
Veenu Paliwal, one of the top woman bikers in the country, died in a road accident in Madhya Pradesh’s Vidisha district on Monday evening.
The 44-year-old Jaipur resident was on a nationwide tour on her Harley Davidson motorcycle along with fellow biker Dipesh Tanwar, who was on another vehicle.
Paliwal died after her bike skid off a road near Gyaraspur, 100 km from state capital Bhopal.
She was rushed to a primary health centre and then to the Vidisha district hospital, where doctors declared her brought dead, police said.


Known for driving Harley Davidson bikes at 180 kmph, Paliwal was planning to make a documentary on her motorbike journey across the country.
“Her family and friends in Jaipur, Indore and Mumbai have been informed. Some of them have already reached,” police said.
A post-mortem will be conducted on Tuesday morning.
Paliwal learned to ride in college, from friends. She couldn’t continue riding, though, because she didn’t have her own bike. She later married a man who wouldn’t let her ride.
After divorce, last year was the second coming of the mother of two.
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Old 12th April 2016, 21:37   #20268
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

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Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Whatever 'adventure' and 'excitement' the motorcycle industry loves to portray alongside these contraptions - these are nothing but machines of death. There will be no Ralph Nader to ban this industry, because hardly anyone in the developed world rides two wheelers.

I am going to come across as insensitive and harsh but here it is.

There was this bike riding friend of mine. He was biking from the last 10 years or so, complete with the Rs. 100000 gear and helmet and all that. He left his job to ride and cover some kilometres in some hours. He managed one such ride and was applauded by fellow morons. There were other pricks who appreciated him and called it a big feat and what not. This guy, buoyed up by this stupidity, tried another stunt, meticulous planning and all. He even mentioned this on some forums, to get more fake appreciation. He got killed after hitting a median at high speeds. Story over. His appreciates found other idiots to support.

I cannot stress this enough.

A motorcycle, is highly unsafe even if you are covered in proper gear from top to bottom. In 2015 motorcyclists were about 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash.


By supporting such nonsense, you are making these fools feel it's some big feat. If you really have nerves made of steel, join the army.

PS: I just read that she claimed of doing 180 kph on Indian roads. Well, I am sorry, but the lady was asking for trouble. I wouldn't dream of doing 180 in a low slung sedan.
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Old 12th April 2016, 23:22   #20269
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

First of all RIP - Veenu Paliwal.

We've lost one of our fraternity. Yes, the reporting was irresponsible. Still the same news is being circulated even after 12 hours of the accident. Even other News papers have borrowed the same news without any editing.

The time taken for an accident victim to reach the nearest Hospital is known as Golden hour. But in her case, it was a different issue. I doubt, whether Doctor's have enquired before administering any injections to her. Or is it a case of infection ? Whatever has happened is Very Sad news for everyone.

A Soldier prefers do die on the battlefield rather than tamely !
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Old 12th April 2016, 23:47   #20270
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Originally Posted by silversteed View Post
Did the jeep guy(s) demand compensation from the Loco Pilot? High chance they'll say the train was "speeding" and hit a "parked" jeep. Stupidity has no bounds these days.
By BLR road rules, train being a bigger vehicle is at fault.
No way train would have a dash cam to prove otherwise (the way you did!)!
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Old 13th April 2016, 00:01   #20271
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Copy paste details from FB.
Quote:
The news that we are reading is just the half side of the story.

She was given an incorrect/overdose of an injection after a minor fall.

After that her pulse dropped and she was rushed to a larger hospital where she was declared dead.

Last edited by jeepster : 13th April 2016 at 00:02.
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Old 13th April 2016, 01:04   #20272
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Whatever 'adventure' and 'excitement' the motorcycle industry loves to portray alongside these contraptions - these are nothing but machines of death. There will be no Ralph Nader to ban this industry, because hardly anyone in the developed world rides two wheelers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
I cannot stress this enough.

A motorcycle, is highly unsafe even if you are covered in proper gear from top to bottom. In 2015 motorcyclists were about 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash.
Both of you are right. Motorcycles are extremely unsafe and the motorcyclists are more susceptible to fatal crashes than car drivers.

And gear is not the solution to everything (I'm in no way advising against wearing protective gear, I do follow ATGATT). Just like having ABS, airbags and crumple zones in your car doesn't guarantee that you will walk out alive.

My belief is simply that a motorcycle is safer than a car, because on a motorcycle I can better avoid accidents on them. In a car, I feel safe because I protection around me. On a motorcycle, I feel safer because I have more options. Riding a motorcycle isn't as simple as driving a car. There are a lot more factors involved like the balance of the vehicle, the braking patterns, the headshakes etc., which requires you to be that more attentive and competent to be able to deal with them.

And that comes only from experience. Riding as much as possible and as attentively as possible is the mantra I live by. One small mistake and I might die, it keeps me on the edge making sure that I'm giving it a 100%.

Competent riders are safer because they:
  1. See more - A rider is usually higher than a car driver, and so has a better view. A better view means you see danger earlier, and can avoid it better. Riders have no car body around them to create vision blind sports. Just turning their head gives a clear all round view. A bike can also move left or right in the lane for a better view, if a truck blocks your vision. A car driver in contrast must remain on the steering wheel side. A motorcycle rider’s field of vision is further and wider than that of a car. When I drive a car, I feel I have a much more constricted field of view.
  2. Evade better - A motorcycle is smaller than a car, and so less of a target to be hit. Being smaller, it also has more places to go safely. If the car ahead stops suddenly, the car behind must hit it. Highway pile-ups occur because cars in a lane have nowhere to go in sudden stop. However a bike can swerve to the side, or fit between two cars on a many lane highway. It can pull onto the safety shoulder if necessary. A motor-cycle has evasion options not available to a car. It can accelerate better out of a trouble situation. In nearly every situation, a motorcycle has more evasive choices, because it is smaller and more mobile.
  3. Attend more - There is something about traveling at high speed a few feet above hard ground that gets your attention. When the body is right there, the brain tends to be right there with it. By comparison, a driver is separated from the world by the car body, air-conditioning and comfort. You only have so much attention. Attending to one thing degrades your attention to another. Distractions reduce your attention to the road, which leads to accidents. Cars have many distractions, but on a motorcycle, it is just you and the road.
  4. Assume less - People driving large vehicles with life insurance think they are “safe”. Life insurance should be called what it really is - death insurance. Then people would understand it better. Money cant replace life. You don't really have insurance (in the sense of replacing what you had). Car safety features cannot avoid the "nut behind the wheel" problem. Safer cars are no use if people are more careless. If drivers with anti-skid brakes just drive faster in the rain, what is the safety benefit? The accident rate depends as much on attitude as on mechanical safety features. Motorcycles create a better attitude, because on a motorcycle, you know you are vulnerable.
The “strength” of a motorcycle is its flexibility, not its invulnerability. The goal is to avoid accidents, not to “safely” have them.

The mentality is not only about saving petrol or having "adventure" and "excitement", it is also an attitude to life, a willingness to be responsible for your own acts.

I don't care if you're convinced or not. The above four points are not only meant for you two but for other riding members of team-bhp too. If it doesn't benefit you, it might actually benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
By supporting such nonsense, you are making these fools feel it's some big feat. If you really have nerves made of steel, join the army.
Sir, are you in the army? If not, please don't bother. Riding a motorcycle are being an Army officer are two very different things.

My dad was in the army and he rode a motorcycle. By your calculations, steel wouldn't be strong enough.

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Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
I wouldn't dream of doing 180 in a low slung sedan.
You probably won't, but many do.
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Old 13th April 2016, 04:22   #20273
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Whatever 'adventure' and 'excitement' the motorcycle industry loves to portray alongside these contraptions - these are nothing but machines of death. There will be no Ralph Nader to ban this industry, because hardly anyone in the developed world rides two wheelers.

This thread seems the most suitable for a discussion on this news:

Prominent woman biker Veenu Paliwal dies in road accident in MP

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
I am going to come across as insensitive and harsh but here it is.

There was this bike riding friend of mine. He was biking from the last 10 years or so, complete with the Rs. 100000 gear and helmet and all that. He left his job to ride and cover some kilometres in some hours. He managed one such ride and was applauded by fellow morons. There were other pricks who appreciated him and called it a big feat and what not. This guy, buoyed up by this stupidity, tried another stunt, meticulous planning and all. He even mentioned this on some forums, to get more fake appreciation. He got killed after hitting a median at high speeds. Story over. His appreciates found other idiots to support.

I cannot stress this enough.

A motorcycle, is highly unsafe even if you are covered in proper gear from top to bottom. In 2015 motorcyclists were about 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash.


By supporting such nonsense, you are making these fools feel it's some big feat. If you really have nerves made of steel, join the army.

PS: I just read that she claimed of doing 180 kph on Indian roads. Well, I am sorry, but the lady was asking for trouble. I wouldn't dream of doing 180 in a low slung sedan.
Good job both of you of being sterotypical after reading a news article without knowing the entire story.

Call for a ban, thats what we educated fools are good at. I heard someone got an STD as they had sex, shall we ban sex too?

Next time while driving be aware of the surroundings, pedestrians or bikers can get injured badly, and then you may want a ban on driving too.

Maddy
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Old 13th April 2016, 06:51   #20274
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Talking Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingheaven View Post
I am going to come across as insensitive and harsh but here it is.


A motorcycle, is highly unsafe even if you are covered in proper gear from top to bottom. In 2015 motorcyclists were about 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash.


By supporting such nonsense, you are making these fools feel it's some big feat. If you really have nerves made of steel, join the army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
Copy paste details from FB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maker_of_things View Post
Both of you are right. Motorcycles are extremely unsafe and the motorcyclists are more susceptible to fatal crashes than car drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddy42 View Post
Good job both of you of being sterotypical after reading a news article without knowing the entire story.

Call for a ban, thats what we educated fools are good at. I heard someone got an STD as they had sex, shall we ban sex too?

Next time while driving be aware of the surroundings, pedestrians or bikers can get injured badly, and then you may want a ban on driving too.

Maddy
YMMV!

I have nothing against those who want to ride - just as those who wish to do bungee jumping.

In reality this mode of transport is very unsafe. Especially in a country like India (and I really can't think of any country where it is safer, can you?)

With proper safeguards and routine checks it is highly unlikely that the bungee cord would fail - and people are very much aware of the risks. But fail they do - if you assume that your local bungee entrepreneur will, for the sake of future business and his reputation, will ensure safety checks, you are sadly mistaken.

The motorcycle industry resists all attempts at regulation - just like the tobacco industry. This is where I see a problem.

Those riding expensive bikes (because financially they could afford a car), have bought the image, so carefully cultivated, by the advertising and motorcycling industry, so that their "choice" is in effect, the execution of their programming by the stories in their environment.

However, the "choice" (whatever that means) is yours.

Lets not start a flaming war here because nothing much will be achieved. There are 2 camps here - "motorcycling is safe" and on the other "motorcycling is unsafe" - and and never the twain shall meet!!!
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Old 13th April 2016, 08:49   #20275
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

At the best of times motorcycling is unsafe. And it is even more unsafe on Indian roads than many others because of the complete absence of courtesy/culture here, which leaves the cyclist exposed to the acts and absent mercies of others on the roads, even in cities where high speeds aren't possible. All it can often take is just a touch or a side swipe.

IMO, in India the only justification for two wheelers is an economic one.

Riding for adventure/kicks is ok provided one has made sure that those that a death will leave behind, will at least not be financially affected.
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Old 13th April 2016, 09:21   #20276
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

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Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
In reality this mode of transport is very unsafe.
Agreed. Motorcycling is inherently unsafe. That is why it is not for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Especially in a country like India (and I really can't think of any country where it is safer, can you?)
Yes, in fact I can think of a number of countries (especially developed ones) where the motorcyclists as well as other motorists get proper training on how to use the roads safely. Of course in this case, other road users are more courteous and considerate towards smaller vehicles (like motorcycles) and pedestrians, who are more vulnerable. Also, the road infrastructure allows for a much safer riding environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
The motorcycle industry resists all attempts at regulation - just like the tobacco industry. This is where I see a problem.
Do you have any evidence to substantiate this claim?

- Without any regulation, the global bike makers agreed to a cap of 300 kph top speed.

- Motorcycles are subjected to the same stringent emission norms as passenger cars. Two strokes went extinct over a decade ago.

- ABS and CBS are already mandatory in the developed world. By 2018, they will be, in India as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvadg View Post
Those riding expensive bikes (because financially they could afford a car), have bought the image, so carefully cultivated, by the advertising and motorcycling industry, so that their "choice" is in effect, the execution of their programming by the stories in their environment.
I don't know how old you are, but before the dawn of the internet and motorcycling forums and group rides, there were many of us who were riding - alone or in groups. There was no Facebook to post instantaneous updates, there was no Golden Quadrilateral to set speed records, there were no Adventure Tourers to take to Leh.

I have over 3,00,000 km of riding experience. In India. And I have owned and enjoyed 19 two wheelers in the past two decades. On a motorcycle, you should know your limits and stay well within them. Also, unless you have very good reflexes and anticipation skills, there is a good chance you will come back home in a box, after a ride.

But don't be under the misconception that all bikers bought their bikes to build their image. These days, people have more money and more powerful bikes are available. And biking is considered 'cool' by the ignorant newbies. That does not mean that all bikers are attention seekers or base their image on their machines. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

I ride because I love to ride. I ride safely and responsibly. And as far as I am concerned, it need not be of concern to anyone else. It may not be my right. But it is a privilege I intend to continue enjoying for as long as my physical abilities let me.

Last edited by Viju : 13th April 2016 at 09:47.
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Old 13th April 2016, 09:47   #20277
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

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I have over 3,00,000 km of riding experience. In India. And I have owned and enjoyed 19 two wheelers in the past two decades. Unless you have very good reflexes and anticipation skills, there is a good chance you will come back in a box after a ride.
While I have a lot of riding experience, it is nowhere near this, but here is the thing:
How many of those that now have the money and the opportunity to have immense power at the twist of their right hand, also have anywhere close to this kind of background?
Ally that to the deathtraps for the unwary that all Indian roads are, things are going to get a lot worse before they - perhaps and hopefully - get better in this aspect of India as well.
And while I am not sexist, how can it be safe for women on bikes in India, where most Indians seem to see all women other their own mothers and sisters as targets on whom to vent their unhealthily pent up sexual frustrations?
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Old 13th April 2016, 09:53   #20278
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

Though I am quite distressed at the attitude of many of the comments and non-substantiated claims made in the preceding posts, I am also happy that there still exists some who logically have evaluated motorcycling as such.

I have only this to say to the doomsayers from a quote that I read somewhere -

Quote:
It's easy to be confident when you have control of the puck. It's very, very difficult to keep that confidence when you gotta take whatever strange bounces life throws your way. Don't be careless, but don't be too careful either. You cannot be afraid to lose! That's how you gain the confidence to attack the game when the puck isn't yours. That's how you attack life... even when you think you don't have any control. And that's how you play real defense.
Cheers...
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Old 13th April 2016, 10:12   #20279
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Default Re: Lessons learnt from motorcycle deaths in Delhi

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Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
Copy paste details from FB.
The news that we are reading is just the half side of the story.

She was given an incorrect/overdose of an injection after a minor fall.

After that her pulse dropped and she was rushed to a larger hospital where she was declared dead.
Absolute rubbish, she died of rupture of liver. She was given anti tetanus injection. One can't expect a Primary health centre to save someone with liver rupture. The fellow rider Deepesh Tanwer made this baseless allegation. There are many photographs of the said lady riding without helmets on the roads. And at the time of the accident the Harley was going at 110 km/hr. There is no point blaming poor doctors for our mistakes. I have seen quite a lot of RTA and it's very unlikely to get your liver ruptured at a lower speed. The moment you feel invincible, mind you, you are getting into trouble. NO AMOUNT OF SAFETY FEATURES CAN SAVE YOU IF YOU ARE SPEEDING. The speed limits are there for a reason, not for the government to extract money. Only when we start respecting the speed limits on our roads, then only will the roads cease to be death traps. You may be the best rider/driver , but when something goes wrong the best person who can help you may not be there nearby.

Last edited by The Rationalist : 13th April 2016 at 10:21.
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Old 13th April 2016, 18:23   #20280
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