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Old 24th August 2017, 14:55   #24406
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Seriously? I am surprised to see BHPians say blame the lady completely. Sure she was definitely at fault but do you think it is fine to travel so fast though an intersection? Whenever I am on the highway, I know that when passing a town, you need to decrease your speed. We don't have so many stop signs in India, but that does not mean we can bash on regardless
It's inexplicable to see people blaming the car driver here.

Let me clear out the parts where car driver can be blamed first.

Can car driver be blamed for not being defensive? - Yes, but that's not illegal.

Was the car driver speeding? - Looked like he was at 80-100kmph and the highway very well could be marked such. This is an unknown factor.

Now, getting to the faults of the scooter rider or fault of no one.

Was the scooter visible for the car early enough? - No, because of the barricade.

Was the scooter driver at fault? - Yes, 100%. It's the law for the crossing traffic to yield to the traffic on the highway. However you slice it, this accident is 100% fault on the scooter rider.

Should car driver share blame for the accident? - No, at best, he would receive a speeding ticket. Provided there was sign boards with reduced speed limits before the junction.

Any decent lawyer worth their salt would get the case against the car driver kicked out without even trying.

Last edited by Yieldway17 : 24th August 2017 at 14:57.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:05   #24407
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Yieldway17 View Post
It's inexplicable to see people blaming the car driver here.

Let me clear out the parts where car driver can be blamed first.

Can car driver be blamed for not being defensive? - Yes, but that's not illegal.

Was the car driver speeding? - Looked like he was at 80-100kmph and the highway very well could be marked such. This is an unknown factor.
Your entire argument is based on assuming you know how fast the car is going. Even if the car was only travelling between 80-100kmph, the fact is when passing through a village the speed limit decreases to atleast 60kmph. In many cases it is even 45kmph. How man times have we travelled on the highway and seen fools cross intersections and act like the own the roads when passing through small towns? Is it not common sense by now that we have to travel slower in these areas? Apart from the fact that you legally have to travel slower as well. It is silly to live in a country like India, and act oblivious to the everyday problems we face with lack of education, lack of proper licensing tests and road manners etc. That is why we have laws stating that one cannot travel at 80-100kph through such areas. Highway speed limit might be 80-120kph but I have done several outstation road trips and every highway lowers the speed limit when entering a small town.

Anyway it is sad to see that several BHPians think it is okay to be travelling at high speeds when passing through these areas. I will not argue any further, please carry on as you see fit.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 24th August 2017 at 15:09.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:18   #24408
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Your entire argument is based on assuming you know how fast the car is going. Even if the car was only travelling between 80-100kmph, the fact is when passing through a village the speed limit decreases to atleast 60kmph. In many cases it is even 45kmph. How man times have we travelled on the highway and seen fools cross intersections and act like the own the roads when passing through small towns? Is it not common sense by now that we have to travel slower in these areas? Apart from the fact that you legally have to travel slower as well. It is silly to live in a country like India, and act oblivious to the everyday problems we face with lack of education, lack of proper licensing tests and road manners etc. That is why we have laws stating that one cannot travel at 80-100kph through such areas. Highway speed limit might be 80-120kph but I have done several outstation road trips and every highway lowers the speed limit when entering a small town.
I beg to differ, we need to differentiate between what is common sense and what is law. How can a driver be held responsible if in case there are no visible speed limit signs announcing the reduction in speed limit?

Unfortunately, none of us know what the speed limit is in this area which is the crux in this incident. And if police presents the case as the accident was because of speeding, hope they can show the speed reduction signs before the junction to the judge.

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Anyway it is sad to see that several BHPians think it is okay to be travelling at high speeds when passing through these areas. I will not argue any further, please carry on as you see fit.
Nope, we do not say that. You are misconstruing our argument.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:21   #24409
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Yieldway17 View Post
Nope, we do not say that. You are misconstruing our argument.
Your argument assumes that there is no posted reduction in speed limit through that village and thus you state that the lady is fully at fault. How am I misconstruing anything here? Had you said that we need to reserve our judgement since we don't know whether or not there was a sign posted out there with the speed limit, I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise I'm sorry I don't see your point.

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Old 24th August 2017, 15:34   #24410
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The car driver is equally at fault. He should have slowed down at the intersection.

My guess is, the driver didn't even notice her until it was too late.
Is this an intersection? Looks like the lady is not even coming from a road, but from pavement of some building.

Even though cab driver is also at fault, I wouldn't say both are equally at fault. Lady on scooter had all the time in the world to look on both sides and to take a decision, but cab driver had only few seconds. He might have thought she wouldn't make such a foolish or dangerous move.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:35   #24411
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

My 2p on this.

Sure, the car does appear traveling faster than it is recommended in such parts of the highway where it passes through crowded / residential areas. The offense that the driver can be booked is under "over speeding" and probably "rash and negligent driving" - hopefully there were road markings.

Under what sections would the scooter rider be booked under for riding on the pavement, crossing the highway at 90 degrees to the traffic, riding on a pedestrian crossing. Not to mention about not wearing a helmet!
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:46   #24412
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Your argument assumes that there is no posted reduction in speed limit through that village and thus you state that the lady is fully at fault. How am I misconstruing anything here? Had you said that we need to reserve our judgement since we don't know whether or not there was a sign posted out there with the speed limit, I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise I'm sorry I don't see your point.
To explain better, I personally would never speed through a junction especially one with barricades like this cab driver did.

It's the fault of the highway designers and maintainers for not putting up speed limit signs and for designing this junction without a traffic light. But without lack of a traffic light, the cross road becomes a road with a virtual 'STOP' sign and the onus is on the crossing vehicles to always stop, yield and go which the scooter rider did but did not do well.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:47   #24413
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

The lady has not identified the speeding car and it was clear in the footage.
Even the car driver did not look like he was enough cautious on the highway.
If he was cautious enough, he had enough time to brake after the sudden entry of the lady into the highway.
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Last edited by Hickstead : 24th August 2017 at 15:51.
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Old 24th August 2017, 15:50   #24414
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

I would say the lady is at fault. First of all its a highway. Secondly she did not even once glance at the crossing road to see if any traffic is coming from the right side (here in Pune we have to keep watching on all sides even on highways!).

Thirdly, the cab driver, maybe, was speeding. But even then, if you look closely, the lady started off slowly and slowed down even further once she reached the opening in the divider. The cab driver may have assumed that the lady has seen him and she would wait for him to cross.

The cab driver, if at all at fault, should have braked earlier as soon as he saw that the lady was not stopping. But again I think till that thought crossed his mind, he had already hit the lady. IMO this is not an intersection but a convenient opening for the residents. One last guess - the lady saw the car but failed to gauge its speed and thought that she would be across in a jiffy.
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Old 24th August 2017, 16:08   #24415
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

Lets put ourselves in the shoes of both the Swift driver as well as scooter rider and consider how we would have reacted.

Scenario #1: as driver of Swift car
When you see from a distance that someone is crossing the road, first you assess the speed of the crossing vehicle. If you think the crossing vehicle has enough speed to cross the road before you intercept it, you will not slow down or break (this is what we do in our day to day driving, lets be honest and practical). If you think the crossing vehicle is in a dilemma whether to cross or not, you will slow down till both of you reach an understanding.

In this case the lady started off at a good enough speed to cross the road before the swift car would intercept her and based on the same assessment the car driver didnt slow down and he was right on his part. Why in the world would he imagine that she would suddenly stop her scooter just before he reaches her?

Scenario #2: as scooty rider
You assess the speed of the oncoming car and judge whether to cross or wait for it to pass. Once you decide to cross, you will not stop in the middle of the road and wait for the car to hit you.
This is precisely what the lady did here. Was she attempting suicide?

To people saying cars should slow down at intersections, I drove on this road (Krishnagiri-Ambur-Vellore) many times and there are umpteen such intersections, almost one every 20-30 KM. As a practical driver you would just scan the intersection before approaching, honk hard and passover. Slowing down at each and every intersection when there is no traffic in sight will drive any driver mad. Its all good for preaching but practically its not possible.
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Old 24th August 2017, 16:41   #24416
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

My turn to pile in.

I don't think she looks to her right. It is almost as if she is waiting for a car to cross in front of.

The view is not obstructed. They could both see each other clearly if they were both looking.

We get about three seconds from this camera. It may not have been time to stop, but it might have been easy to pass behind the scooter.

I can imagine the car driver saying he could not believe that the scooter woman could be so stupid. But that's stupid. He should have expected it.

Every intersection is a hazard. A driver should be ready to respond, unless it can be seen that it is completely clear. Here it could be seen that it was not completely clear.

I don't think that either driver has much respect for safety. Hope they both learned.
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Old 24th August 2017, 17:12   #24417
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by Midas View Post
Is this an intersection? Looks like the lady is not even coming from a road, but from pavement of some building.

Even though cab driver is also at fault, I wouldn't say both are equally at fault. Lady on scooter had all the time in the world to look on both sides and to take a decision, but cab driver had only few seconds. He might have thought she wouldn't make such a foolish or dangerous move.
Exactly my thought as well. Why is everyone calling it an intersection? An intersection has a minimum of 3 road segments. This is just an opening on the highway for U turns (as can be seen by the dotted line in the gap) and any driver would primarily be focusing on vehicles taking a U-turn from the opposite side and not not on some suicidal riders jumping off from the pavement from the left (the 2 wheeler can clearly be seen stepping down from a height). This might have been the reason that his focus was more on the right side of the road than the left. Of course, in an ideal world he would have been more alert of the left as well but again, that is wishful thinking.

Last edited by praveen789 : 24th August 2017 at 17:14.
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Old 24th August 2017, 18:18   #24418
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Originally Posted by chevyman View Post
To people saying cars should slow down at intersections, I drove on this road (Krishnagiri-Ambur-Vellore) many times and there are umpteen such intersections, almost one every 20-30 KM. As a practical driver you would just scan the intersection before approaching, honk hard and passover. Slowing down at each and every intersection when there is no traffic in sight will drive any driver mad. Its all good for preaching but practically its not possible.
Obviously, I am not debating your points but my views do differ slightly. In an ideal world and perhaps in a more developed country with larger roads, adequate signage and well planned and enforced rules, perhaps the car can keep rolling after scanning the oncoming lane and the side lane.. but not in India. The basic mentality of a two-wheeler is to shoot then look, also once they are close to crossing the median and turning to the other lane the discover that they have to look out for the opposite side traffic of the lane across the median and thus they come to a dead halt leaving 2/3rd of the two wheeler hanging out at the speeding lane.

It is with this knowledge that most drivers including I, stop or slow down to a point where the vehicular control is 100% to prevent any last minute errors. Yes it may not be our fault but who exactly is the police looking to apprehend now? The driver of the car no doubt? It almost seemed like he didn't even touch the brakes at any point.

Besides the driver also did a hit-&-run from the looks of it (perhaps he cant be blamed as the public will give him absolutely no chance to take the rider to a hospital, rather they will ALSO send him to the hospital separately), nonetheless a run after such an accident is illegal. We need a paradigm shift in road manners and accident care protocol. Accidents will happen, but doing everything to prevent them should never stop.

Wishing the rider a full recovery and with a higher enlightenment of safety instincts this time.

Last edited by dark.knight : 24th August 2017 at 18:21.
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Old 24th August 2017, 18:37   #24419
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is this even an intersection?

Good point. Actually looks more like a pedestrian crossing! But drivers should treat those with as much, if not more respect.
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Old 24th August 2017, 18:45   #24420
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Default Re: Pics: Accidents in India

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
It is with this knowledge that most drivers including I, stop or slow down to a point where the vehicular control is 100% to prevent any last minute errors. Yes it may not be our fault but who exactly is the police looking to apprehend now? The driver of the car no doubt? It almost seemed like he didn't even touch the brakes at any point.
This is what is enraging me that the police will put the entire blame on the car driver and let the scooty driver go scot free. On the flip side, I agree extreme defensive driving is indispensable on Indian highways.
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