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Old 17th July 2009, 16:34   #2806
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Hi,

OT here,

Adding to what Bouncer requested,

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Originally Posted by pachchu View Post
Sure. Let me work on that with some pictures. Given that it's a rare thing, I ought to do justice to it.
While you are at it, could you put something about your AT Santro too, if you have not done so. Lot of heartache regarding mileage in AT i10 in other threads.
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Old 17th July 2009, 16:49   #2807
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Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
What car is that? is it a corolla or a feista ? And It is quite a miracle that the driver escaped on foot. The condition of the car does not look like anybody could come out of it unscathed!
Looks like Corola to me
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Old 17th July 2009, 17:21   #2808
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Yes, that is for sure, a Corolla. Hope no one lost their lives.
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Old 18th July 2009, 04:31   #2809
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Saw this just now .The swift was struck by a tata pickup (207) from back and in front it went under a Tata 407.I still feel sheet metal thickness decides the safety in accidents .The swift has crumpled from everywhere like a pack of cards .
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Old 18th July 2009, 06:08   #2810
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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
.I still feel sheet metal thickness decides the safety in accidents .The swift has crumpled from everywhere like a pack of cards .
This is common misconception - why do you think crumple zones exist? To allow the energy to dissipate in the intended crumpling instead of having it transmitted in full to the occupants, whose bodies would then be doing the crumpling. In most cases, you would be worse off in an old fashioned body made of steel plates and were involved in a high speed crash. The car would look intact and you would look like the swift. Of course, beyond a point if the energy to be absorbed is so high that a lot of it remains even after the car has crumpled up to the rigidly constructed passenger cell, you would still be in serious trouble of course.

Last edited by Sawyer : 18th July 2009 at 06:12. Reason: PS: Look up crumple zones on wikipedia for more detail
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Old 18th July 2009, 06:14   #2811
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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
Saw this just now .The swift was struck by a tata pickup (207) from back and in front it went under a Tata 407.I still feel sheet metal thickness decides the safety in accidents .The swift has crumpled from everywhere like a pack of cards .
Thats horrific!!

Where in delhi was this and I hope the occupants... Well looks bad!!!

Are they OK???
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Old 18th July 2009, 10:54   #2812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
...sheet metal thickness decides the safety in accidents....
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
This is common misconception - why do you think crumple zones exist?
...even after the car has crumpled up to the rigidly constructed passenger cell, you would still be in serious trouble of course.
Perpetual debate will continue for ever... IMHO the Swift crumpled a lot more than expected - looking at the fact that the boot section is totally ripped off, but also mainly because it went under a T-407 and the A-pillars took the impact in front. In this kind of situation, even the airbag sensors (if present) would not be touched, and airbags won't activate.

Seems we need airbag sensors on A-pillars in this country - until Indian trucks come universally equipped with low level bumpers.
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Old 18th July 2009, 13:27   #2813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
This is common misconception - why do you think crumple zones exist? To allow the energy to dissipate in the intended crumpling instead of having it transmitted in full to the occupants, whose bodies would then be doing the crumpling. In most cases, you would be worse off in an old fashioned body made of steel plates and were involved in a high speed crash.
I too feel that metal thinkness does a vital job for the safety. But I am not telling that we should also put 100mm sheet will prove to be better. But a breakeven thickness should be used to built a car.
In Swift I believe they have used too less thick sheet to build the car. A small human push can built a dent in this car.
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Old 18th July 2009, 13:39   #2814
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Quote:
Perpetual debate will continue for ever
It wouldn't be "perpetual" if it didn't!

Looks to me like the passenger zone of that Swift has held up quite well.
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Old 18th July 2009, 13:46   #2815
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Well the accident happened in Delhi near Alipur .Also Came to know today that both rear passengers were dead on the spot(R.I.P) and the front co passengers head was smashed badly and driver is serious .

Also what i meant by sheet metal thickness is the effective deformation force that is required to rip it / tear it and this is too less in japanese cars vis a vis Eupropean.
Also please look at how the body has been teared apart .

Also in my personal opinion crumple zones should exists but what i have seen over the years in japanese cars the whole car is crumple zone but in the european they have specific crumple zones after which the body shell is really very rigid.

Last edited by Trust_In_Thrust : 18th July 2009 at 13:53.
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Old 18th July 2009, 16:27   #2816
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For a car that has taken two impacts, first a rear ending by 207 and then the car rear ended 407, the car looks like it took them well.

1) Nobody can help you if you hit the rear end/front end of truck with good force. Absolutely nothing. Do this experiment even on Merc or even rolls royce, and this will be result. The front and rear ends of Indian trucks are very high. The rear end more so. So whenever a passenger car rear ends the truck, the part of the car that is designed to absorb the impact energy i.e. crumple zones, are not activated and alre almost left untouched. What bears the burnt of the impact is the A-pillar and passenger cell that is not designed to absorb energy and is made as rigid as possible.

2) In the case of Swift, similar thing happend. The crumple zones never had opportunity to do their duty and A-pillar ( read passenger cell ) took all the impact. I feel that Swift indeed took the crash well and is identifiable. Generally cars are wrecked beyond recognicition in these cases. A few years ago a Scorpio rear ended a truck on NE-1. It was carrying a newly wed couple ( not even a week ) and both of them died on the spot.

3) Theories like Sheet metal.. are baseless. Basically what we touch are skin panels ( sorry if my term is not technical ). They are not very strongly made and this cannot affect a car's crash worthiness. From what I have read on the net, these not so strong skin panels improve pedestrian safety.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
Also in my personal opinion crumple zones should exists but what i have seen over the years in japanese cars the whole car is crumple zone but in the european they have specific crumple zones after which the body shell is really very rigid.
I dont agree with this statement. This is a so called blanket statement. Crash any European car into rear end of truck at very high speed and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arin_12 View Post
I too feel that metal thinkness does a vital job for the safety.
In Swift I believe they have used too less thick sheet to build the car. A small human push can built a dent in this car.
Swift main body structure is made by a technology called " Tailored Blanks ". With the help of this, the thickness can be varied. But what you are talking is about is skin panels getting dented. This is not crumple zone.

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
IMHO the Swift crumpled a lot more than expected - looking at the fact that the boot section is totally ripped off, but also mainly because it went under a T-407 and the A-pillars took the impact in front. In this kind of situation, even the airbag sensors (if present) would not be touched, and airbags won't activate.

Seems we need airbag sensors on A-pillars in this country - until Indian trucks come universally equipped with low level bumpers.
It all depends upon how the car is hit and at what speed. Here the car suffered two impacts, a rear ending by a 207 and then Swift rear ended a 407.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Looks to me like the passenger zone of that Swift has held up quite well.
yes, agree with you. The car took two impacts and is still identifiable. 10 years ago, the cars would be unidentifiable.
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Old 18th July 2009, 16:36   #2817
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Gentlemen, the tinny Japanese cars also have to pass EU crash tests to allow for their sales in the EU. I agree they are tinny, but the passion for heavy metal from a safety perspective is just prejudice. Crumple zones is not something new, and this Indian distrust has existed since the time the Maruti 800 was launched. The real issue with that car was that it was too fast for the skill/self discipline of Indian drivers at the time. And this state of affairs seems to be continuing with every new launch. Sitting inside even "tanks" and doing all the stupid things that caused many of the accidents that are pictured here is not going to save our lives.
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Old 18th July 2009, 16:45   #2818
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Very well said, Sawyer.

I feel safe in an Audi than I do in a Maruti. But, just at the level of body strength, this is probably an illusion. In fact, I sometimes tell myself that my refusal to ride 2-wheelers whilst feeling safe in a 4-wheeler tin box is largely illusory.

Sometimes it is healthier for us if things look dangerous.

Lots of people say to only think of the positive, and never to visualise the negative --- but I find that occasionally meditating on broken glass and crushed metal has an excellent effect on my driving. I follow this thread for the same reason.
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Old 18th July 2009, 17:05   #2819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Very well said, Sawyer.

I feel safe in an Audi than I do in a Maruti. But, just at the level of body strength, this is probably an illusion. In fact, I sometimes tell myself that my refusal to ride 2-wheelers whilst feeling safe in a 4-wheeler tin box is largely illusory.

Sometimes it is healthier for us if things look dangerous.

Lots of people say to only think of the positive, and never to visualise the negative --- but I find that occasionally meditating on broken glass and crushed metal has an excellent effect on my driving. I follow this thread for the same reason.
You are safer in the Audi, but that is more because it will stop faster and safer, and handle itself better if you want to maneuver. And be better equipped in terms of airbags etc.
And for those reading this thread, along with broken glass and metal, think smashed and bleeding body parts. Lying neglected by the typical Indian passer by.
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Old 18th July 2009, 19:06   #2820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
It wouldn't be "perpetual" if it didn't!
How true! My English stands upgraded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
The front and rear ends of Indian trucks are very high. The rear end more so. So whenever a passenger car rear ends the truck, the part of the car that is designed to absorb the impact energy i.e. crumple zones, are not activated and alre almost left untouched.
This is exactly what I was also trying to highlight - the fact that cars in India go UNDER a truck when rear-ending them. New legislation IS in place for all trucks to have low-level bumpers at the back - but then, we love not to obey silly laws! And this happens...
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