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Old 19th May 2012, 17:22   #11116
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Default SX4 - Crash pictures

Since safety is very much underated in India just want to share a recent incident-

A good friend & business associate bought, a few months ago, the fully loaded SX4 - ZXi AT version - at my insistence that he go in for the full safety features.

A couple of days ago, while going to Bangalore, he had a crash with a tractor trolley @ high speeds. There was emergency braking from 80-90ish kmph (latest feedback) & airbags deployed on impact & all passengers in the car were uninjured (one person in the rear seat had some shin bruises). The car was towed back to Pune with the driver accompaning it on the tow truck. Friend & his group continued their business trip to B'lore & returned by Bus.

He mentioned to me that the Airbags & safe body of the car prevented a serious turn of events. He has forwarded the pictures taken at the site. Will go & see the car at the workshop, to see how the front firewall & pedals behaved (crash movement wise).

Atleast from the photos the passenger compartment is intact & doors opened.

Is it not high time that Airbags & ABS with EBD be made compulsory? For a start atleast it can be made compulsory to offer it as an extra across all variants of a car. Larger cars, which will be driven at higher speeds on the highways should have it as a compulsory addon.
( I know - I know -a M800 used to be flogged @ 80-100 by a maniac like me - in my younger days. But madcaps like me hopefully are rare!.)

Wake up Maruti & give Airbags with ABS as options on all ur variants. Then the others will follow.

NOTE: All passengers were wearing seatbelts.
Attached Thumbnails
Pics: Accidents in India-img_3812.jpg  

Pics: Accidents in India-img_3825.jpg  

Pics: Accidents in India-img_3829.jpg  

Pics: Accidents in India-img_3830.jpg  


Last edited by Rehaan : 22nd May 2012 at 17:50. Reason: Mentioning that everyone was wearing seat-belts. (Airbags can cause damage without them, so just being clear). Thanks.
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Old 19th May 2012, 17:26   #11117
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Yes, we are OT, and should be prepared for post disappearance (sorry mods!) but, we are either misunderstanding each other or the subject.

If the corner is to left, the road will be banked (higher) on the right. This helps the car to turn to the left, and not drift to the right, which would be going uphill. This is the way stunt drivers go around inside a wall of death show.

If the road is banked the wrong way, it feels like it will fly off.

Camber, or banking, helps, but it is one's own car and steering that gets around that corner. We should not rely on the road engineers. Corners should be approached in right gear and right speed. If not absolutely sure, slow down and change down.
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Old 19th May 2012, 17:44   #11118
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
Is it not high time that Airbags & ABS with EBD be made compulsory? For a start atleast it can be made compulsory to offer it as an extra across all variants of a car. Larger cars, which will be driven at higher speeds on the highways should have it as a compulsory addon.

Wake up Maruti & give Airbags with ABS as options on all ur variants. Then the others will follow.
Glad to know that your friend is safe and unhurt.

It is a good idea to make Airbags and ABS etc compulsory. But i would rather see reasonable speed limits being enforced seriously across the country first. And prevent traffic like tractor trolley and bullock carts and cyclists etc from getting on to the highway.
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Old 19th May 2012, 18:14   #11119
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
And prevent traffic like tractor trolley and bullock carts and cyclists etc from getting on to the highway.
From the description of events that my friend gave on phone, they had initially slowed down & were overtaking the tractor trailer (2 trollies carrying sugarcane) when the whole thing suddenly veered to the side. Friend's speed estimate is just judgemental. Seeing the photos my guess is that they must have been around 80 kmph max & at the time of impact it must have dropped to 60. Their driver is a very safe driver with 12 year's accident free record.

The swaying motion of these tractor trollies combos is basically due to the pendulum effect caused by poorly designed steering & tow bars. It is actually a cottage industry product coming onto a national highway & not paying any toll to boot.

Last edited by sridhar-v : 19th May 2012 at 18:15. Reason: spelling
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Old 19th May 2012, 18:17   #11120
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

@Sridhar-v: Good to know everyone is safe. and unhurt. It indeed should be mad made mandatory across all variant. To start with, it could be made optional across all variants, for the price consious. Nice to see more people appreciating the need for saftey.

@amitoj: do we have reasonable speed limits in the country in the first place? If I am correct the max permissible is 120 kmph. With the current generations of cars, many of them can easily 150 kmph even on the smallest hatchbacks. Instead would prefer to have infrastructure for such speedsters and tolls collected , and the revenue collected from such tolls should also be used to maintain NH and SH where the current speed limits maintained. I do agree that the enforcement should be effective and enforced. Today the toll roads are good only for a couple of years of laying it. A good example is the Chennai Bangalore highway. The road which was smooth all the way from outskirts of chennai, is all ups and down wave pattern of the soft tar.
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Old 19th May 2012, 18:33   #11121
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

I have the Cruze with ABS and have mentioned this in umpteen posts in various forums. Do not get a car with ABS which does not have individual brake control. A car with EBD will behave horrendously when braking with either of the wheels in the mud or off the road where the grip offered is poor. EBD takes care of front rear wheel brake control as if they were twins and not individual wheels. I have experienced ABS on three occasions and frankly my Junkindica without ABS/EBD is far better at helping me judge stopping distances when the left side wheels are off the curb. When all wheels are on tarmac then ABS/EBD does make sense. Just like the saying" A chain is as strong as the weakest link"; so also braking in a ABS/EBD equipped car is as strong as the grip available on the weakest tire. Till manufacturers offer individual brake control do not advice anyone to go for ABS/EBD equipped cars unless they only travel on well laid tarmac with shoulders. Its far better to opt for airbags than opting for ABS/EBD. I doubt though if airbags are available sans ABS. Google about what happens to a car when either left or right wheels are off the tarmac and ABS/EBD comes into play and the resultant stopping distances.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 19th May 2012 at 18:35.
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Old 19th May 2012, 18:48   #11122
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar-v View Post
From the description of events that my friend gave on phone,
My post was not w.r.t the accident. It was more in response to the suggestion of making abs compulsory. I was only highlighting the fact that there are more serious issues that need to be addressed if accidents are to be reduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu.t.k View Post
@amitoj: do we have reasonable speed limits in the country in the first place?
Some places we do, some places we don't.
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Old 19th May 2012, 19:04   #11123
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Glad to know every one came out of the vehicle safe & uninjured. "drpullockaran", thank you for a very useful piece of information. I had no idea about the effect of ABS/EBD over a situation where either of the wheels are off the tarmac.
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Old 19th May 2012, 19:21   #11124
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Good to know that everyone is safe after such a horrific crash.
What i feel is that rather than government & manufacturers making the safety features such as Airbags, ABS, EBD, ESP etc mandatory on cars, It is more important that people realize the importance of all the safety aids and make sure that the new car that they buy has these. Only then the manufacturers too will offer these features on all the models.
I recently saw a similar accident involving an indica(without any safety aids) where the driver and other occupants were badly injured.
People must be educated about the safe driving and safety aids. Cost alone should not be the only deciding factor while buying a car.
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Old 19th May 2012, 19:38   #11125
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
...we are either misunderstanding each other or the subject...


Yes, that is correct. I think we both are just putting it in different ways. What I was trying to say is exactly the same. I think we mixed up about the "inside" and "outside" part..!!
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Old 19th May 2012, 20:24   #11126
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
I have the Cruze with ABS and have mentioned this in umpteen posts in various forums. Do not get a car with ABS which does not have individual brake control. A car with EBD will behave horrendously when braking with either of the wheels in the mud or off the road where the grip offered is poor. EBD takes care of front rear wheel brake control as if they were twins and not individual wheels. I have experienced ABS on three occasions and frankly my Junkindica without ABS/EBD is far better at helping me judge stopping distances when the left side wheels are off the curb. When all wheels are on tarmac then ABS/EBD does make sense. Just like the saying" A chain is as strong as the weakest link"; so also braking in a ABS/EBD equipped car is as strong as the grip available on the weakest tire. Till manufacturers offer individual brake control do not advice anyone to go for ABS/EBD equipped cars unless they only travel on well laid tarmac with shoulders. Its far better to opt for airbags than opting for ABS/EBD. I doubt though if airbags are available sans ABS. Google about what happens to a car when either left or right wheels are off the tarmac and ABS/EBD comes into play and the resultant stopping distances.
Many thanks for that interesting feedback. Shocking that there is such cost cutting in a high end car. What is required is a 4 channel ABS system, but a 3 channel setup has been used..

A link to a simple explanation
About ABS

The Cruze is another example of where the manufacturers use ABS as a marketing tool without giving full disclosure of their cost cutting. I have heard talk of Bosch developing a low cost ABS system for Indian Market - must be a 2 channel one. And ARAI being what they are they will not even question the effectiveness of such a system.

So Guys - Include a question "Is it a 4 channel ABS?" in your checklist.
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Old 19th May 2012, 20:26   #11127
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
I have the Cruze with ABS and have mentioned this in umpteen posts in various forums. Do not get a car with ABS which does not have individual brake control. A car with EBD will behave horrendously when braking with either of the wheels in the mud or off the road where the grip offered is poor. EBD takes care of front rear wheel brake control as if they were twins and not individual wheels.
Doc, I understood your point. But how can we identify what kind of a ABS system the car has and whether it has individual wheel control? Is there any car (under 15 lacs) which has this individual wheel control ABS system?
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Old 19th May 2012, 20:50   #11128
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Sridhar, good to know that the car occupants were duly saved from more grievous injuries due to the safety features doing their jobs effectively.
The car has crashed and only its crumple zone (the engine bay) of the monococque body shell has been impacted. The passenger cabin is almost intact.
It is evident that the car was controlled and it withstood the event. Or else, had the speed been higher and uncontrolled, the things would have taken a different turn.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 19th May 2012 at 20:51.
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Old 19th May 2012, 21:20   #11129
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Sx4 has absorbed the impact well here. I feel a solid shell with well designed energy absorbing crumple zones is more important than the number of Airbags in a car. Good thing is car manufacturers have started paying special attention to safety at the time of designing the cars, just look at the number of Euro NCAP 5 star rated we have around compared to the percentage a few years back.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
I have the Cruze with ABS and have mentioned this in umpteen posts in various forums. Do not get a car with ABS which does not have individual brake control. A car with EBD will behave horrendously when braking with either of the wheels in the mud or off the road where the grip offered is poor. EBD takes care of front rear wheel brake control as if they were twins and not individual wheels. I have experienced ABS on three occasions and frankly my Junkindica without ABS/EBD is far better at helping me judge stopping distances when the left side wheels are off the curb. When all wheels are on tarmac then ABS/EBD does make sense. Just like the saying" A chain is as strong as the weakest link"; so also braking in a ABS/EBD equipped car is as strong as the grip available on the weakest tire. Till manufacturers offer individual brake control do not advice anyone to go for ABS/EBD equipped cars unless they only travel on well laid tarmac with shoulders. Its far better to opt for airbags than opting for ABS/EBD. I doubt though if airbags are available sans ABS. Google about what happens to a car when either left or right wheels are off the tarmac and ABS/EBD comes into play and the resultant stopping distances.
I do not understand what do you mean to say? Most cars these days which come with 4 channel ABS also come with EBD as standard, and it is EBD(Electronic Brake force distribution) which splits the braking power in milliseconds and gives extra braking power to the wheels in need.

I have been driving ABS equipped cars for years, in total i have driven them for lakhs of kilometers, i have never felt ABS compromised the braking performance, in fact i love the steering and body control offered by ABS under emergency braking. Brake Assist is another awesome feature, which compensates for driver not applying enough force to pedal in an emergency situation.

The only car i know which comes with 3 channel ABS without EBD is Mahindra Scorpio. Even in that one compared to non ABS version the braking performance is a lot better.

In fact i feel, apart from ABS even the ESP should be offered as standard equipment.

Last edited by .anshuman : 20th May 2012 at 11:30. Reason: typo
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Old 19th May 2012, 22:08   #11130
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

It doesnt look like the survival rate in this accident was dependent on airbags alone. The cabin is intact and the crash is not as bad. Bad, but not too bad. What will you complain about if the car gets crushed under the truck?

From the description, it appears probably no one was wearing seat belts, hence the passenger feels that the miracle of AirBag saved him. In a crash like this seat belts alone would have prevented injury for all 4 passengers.

Giving Airbags or ABS on all variants is as good as discontinuing Vx or LXi variants since there will not be much difference among L, V or Z!

Cant complain much if people are not wearing seatbelts.
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