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Old 19th May 2012, 22:12   #11131
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Its good to know that all the passengers escaped unhurt.

Regarding the wonderful insight into the ABS working, it was really eye opening. But I have a few queries as I a newbie to ABS details-
1) how do we know if the car has individual wheel brake control?

2) What does the number of channels signify?
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Old 19th May 2012, 22:33   #11132
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

glad to know nothing happened! I too have decided to take my next car with all the safety features!

On the point of ABS effectiveness, it is also depends on the technique of braking. I attended a BMW advanced driver training program where they taught us how to recognize if ABS has kicked in (you get feedback from the brake) & how to control the car during that time. very useful.

An experience with the BMW Driver Training Program

Last edited by urajkumar : 19th May 2012 at 22:51.
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Old 19th May 2012, 23:13   #11133
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

A noob'ish question, when a car has ABS does it automatically mean it has EBD? As in, is EBD a function of the ABS? Take for example the Chevrolet Beat, the top model has ABS but has no mention of EBD. Does ABS without EBD even make sense? And how would you know if its 2,3 or 4 channel?
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Old 19th May 2012, 23:37   #11134
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Default re: Pics: Accidents in India

Scientifically implemented banking certainly plays a major part in safety. Unfortunately, in India, banked cureves are mostly on the new National Highways/Expressways and in the hills. Elsewhere, it's pure luck depending upon the competency of the particular contractor and his supervising Independent Engineer!

Chances are that curves where there are multiple accidents are incorrectly banked! Any correctly banked curve should resemble a very shallow V shape allowing both sides to use centripetal force to (i.e. the banking angle) to partly nullify the strong centrifugal force pushing the vehicle to the outside of the curve.

For Bangaloreans, a fine example of a wrongly banked curve is the Le Meridien curve on NH7/Chowdaiah Road next to Bangalore Golf Club. Multiple accidents have taken place there and any over-confident driver will find himself/herself in a soup even though the curve is not very pronounced!
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Old 20th May 2012, 07:57   #11135
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Glad to know everyone is safe.
BTW : which part of the truck did it hit, I mean even both the headlamps are in shape; more like 'hit a an electric post' or something.
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Old 20th May 2012, 08:12   #11136
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Sx4 has absorbed the impact well here.
Very impressive indeed. And yes, airbags is a savior, but more than that, it’s the crumple zones which absorbed the impact well, and kept the passenger shell intact.
SX4 indeed is a worth mentioning effort from Suzuki as far as safety standards are concerned, probably the best among their models sold in India, along with the Swift.
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Old 20th May 2012, 08:27   #11137
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Glad everyone is safe.

SX4 seems to have taken the hit rather well. Guess the speeds wasn't that high either; the front windshield is untouched.

Make ABS/EBD, Airbags compulsory - sure; but drivers should also be educated on how ABS works. Remember the Chevy Captiva accident on Mum-Pune expressway thread!
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Old 20th May 2012, 09:16   #11138
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
Guess the speeds wasn't that high either; the front windshield is untouched.
I can see a crack at-least on the windshield. Top right bottom. Isn't it?
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Old 20th May 2012, 09:17   #11139
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
It doesnt look like the survival rate in this accident was dependent on airbags alone. The cabin is intact and the crash is not as bad. Bad, but not too bad. What will you complain about if the car gets crushed under the truck?

From the description, it appears probably no one was wearing seat belts, hence the passenger feels that the miracle of AirBag saved him. In a crash like this seat belts alone would have prevented injury for all 4 passengers.
All of them were wearing seatbelts. Unless you have the pretensioning type of seat belt system your upper torso will move forward before being held back by the belt. And even with the pretensioning belts your neck & head will jerk forward - giving you a neck injury & possible serious facial blows. So from the description, given to me by the friend, the airbags literally held him in place.

And mind you he just had a heart bypass operation last year & so any severe stress to the chest area would have been problematic. He completed his trip, came back to Pune & then promptly went to attend a conference in Lavasa - so none the worse for it.
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Old 20th May 2012, 09:39   #11140
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by superutp View Post
A noob'ish question, when a car has ABS does it automatically mean it has EBD? As in, is EBD a function of the ABS? Take for example the Chevrolet Beat, the top model has ABS but has no mention of EBD. Does ABS without EBD even make sense? And how would you know if its 2,3 or 4 channel?
No. If EBD is not mentioned then you can be pretty sure the car doesn't have it. Same is the case with my Vento which has ABS but no EBD. What EBD does is improves the protection on top of ABS as has been described in detail here and a lot of other posts in TBHP. Having said that, having ABS is actually good enough going a long way in helping prevent damage during emergency braking situations. I myself have noticed this a lot of times on the Vento which by the way I feel has amazing brakes compared to its class.

Taking the discussion further it is always heartening to hear and see road users having their lives saved or escaping serious damage to their bodies when involved in such accidents. All due to having the right safety equipment in the car. Sure seat belts help a lot but having ABS and airbags go a long way in saving the occupants inside. 80-90 KMPH are normal highway speeds in India which translates to about 50-60 MPH in US terms. I feel some of our highways are as good as the US allowing us to drive at even higher speeds. All this necessitates ensuring cars being sold with the right safety equipment. Just seat belts won't do. Airbags and ABS should be made mandatory in cars above a certain BHP say 70 or 80. More often than not these cars are driven on highways and absence of these equipment in the cars endangers lives greatly. However for some reason our governments, courts and law enforcement agencies are more worked up about sun films . I have seen some nasty accidents where the occupants perished simply because they didn't have airbags and/or couldn't brake well due to absence of ABS. It is high time airbags and/or ABS are made mandatory for most cars including hatches. We are way way behind than most nations in terms of road safety.
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Old 20th May 2012, 09:51   #11141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohit
It doesnt look like the survival rate in this accident was dependent on airbags alone. The cabin is intact and the crash is not as bad. Bad, but not too bad. What will you complain about if the car gets crushed under the truck?

From the description, it appears probably no one was wearing seat belts, hence the passenger feels that the miracle of AirBag saved him. In a crash like this seat belts alone would have prevented injury for all 4 passengers.

Giving Airbags or ABS on all variants is as good as discontinuing Vx or LXi variants since there will not be much difference among L, V or Z!

Cant complain much if people are not wearing seatbelts.
Airbags generally do not deploy if the occupants aren't wearing seatbelts. That's part of the overall safety system programming.
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Old 20th May 2012, 10:56   #11142
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by superutp View Post
A noob'ish question, when a car has ABS does it automatically mean it has EBD? As in, is EBD a function of the ABS? Take for example the Chevrolet Beat, the top model has ABS but has no mention of EBD. Does ABS without EBD even make sense? And how would you know if its 2,3 or 4 channel?
Well it is after all a hydraulic circuit. So you can combine or leave out whatever you want. And cost cutting goes on in many ways- some of them plain stupid.
I remember an incident narrated to me, almost a decade ago, by the senior Q.C. person in charge of UV's at a Pune manufacturer. (you can guess the names of the companies). They were being trounced in sales by a south based Jap company. One of the reasons was that the Jap vehicle was much better in emergency braking. Finally the QC chap forced the VP of his company to sit in the vehicle & did an emergency braking test on their track. Vehicle jumped all over the place. VP Saab promptly sanctioned addition of a simple Load Sensing Proportonal Valve. The cost of the valve was some 150 bucks. But they were trying to save that money also!

Re you query about the no. of channels - you need to jack up the car & look at the way the hydraulic pipes have been routed. And try and see if you can get hold of the Service Manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~h View Post
Glad to know everyone is safe.
BTW : which part of the truck did it hit, I mean even both the headlamps are in shape; more like 'hit a an electric post' or something.
I need to sit down & talk to my friend. But he currently is having a jolly time in Lavasa. Will update when he gets back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Sx4 has absorbed the impact well here. I feel a solid shell with well designed energy absorbing crumple zones is more important than the number of Airbags in a car. Good thing is car manufacturers have started paying special attention to safety at the time of designing the cars, just look at the number of Euro NCAP 5 star rated we have around compared to the percentage a few years back.
(...)
I do not understand what do you mean to say? Most cars these days which come with 4 channel ABS also come with EBD as standard, and it is EBD(Electronic Brake force distribution) which splits the braking power in milliseconds and gives extra braking power to the wheels in need.

I have been driving ABS equipped cars for years, in total i have driven them for lakhs of kilometers, i have never felt ABS compromised the braking performance, in fact i love the steering and body control offered by ABS under emergency braking. Brake Assist is another awesome feature, which compensates for driver not applying enough force to pedal in an emergency situation.

The only car i know which comes with 3 channel ABS with EBD and Emergency Brake Assist is Mahindra Scorpio. Even in that one compared to non ABS version the braking performance is a lot better.

In fact i feel, apart from ABS even the ESP should be offered as standard equipment.
If you see the functional requirements, then ABS combined with EBD or ESP meens that it needs individual braking control on each wheel. But afterall the system is eventually controlled by some Algorithm & you can get away with introducing an artificial layer of "virtual feedback".

Actually a German expert on the subject had tried, a few years ago at my client's factory, to explain to me some of the intricacies of the ABS system. Most of it went over my head. But the crux is it is all about signal processing & comparing with a 3D logic-matrix stored in the eprom & then initiating suitable actions. He mentioned that one of the most crucial elements is the correctness of the signal from the wheel sensors. This point had arisen because we were facing customer complaints from FORD re the ABS signals they were getting from the rear axles supplied by my client. Root cause analysis, guided by the expert, revealed that the positioning accuracy of the sensor had to be controlled very accurately.
We then investigated why we were not receiving any complaints from Tata Motors - the axles are basically the same except for some minor differences.
We found that the Sensor Ring specified by Ford ( which was imported) & the ring specified by TML were as different as cheese & chalk. The Ford part was being Electro-Chemical macined on a machine costing Rs. 5 crores whearas the TML unit was being hand drilled on a bench drill costing Rs. 25,000. According to the expert the TML ABS system would have to be set to much lower sensitivity & would have lower effectiveness. TML could advertise "ABS" on the Safari - but how effective it would be? - it seemed more of marketing gimmick than anything else.

Unfortunately the market seems to be going by marketing gimmicks - the latest being voice actuated commands. It take 2-3 seconds for the command to be conveyed & executed. And for you to pull the concerned lever or push the switch - 200- 300 milliseconds. And the chaps cut out essential safety features to keep overall costs in check.

The only way to find out about the ABS sensor ring issue is to do a back to back test of the Safari & Endeavour. If the mods can arrange for some such test I would be happy to assit.

Last edited by noopster : 20th May 2012 at 13:48. Reason: Please do not quote a large post (including video) in its entirety.
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Old 20th May 2012, 11:51   #11143
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Glad to know that everyone in the car is safe.
Till the time we have slow moving vehicles on highways-jugaad,overlaoded tractor trolleys,sugarcane loaded trucks-we will have nightmares while driving.(attaching a couple of snaps for the same,somewhere in between Jaipur and Kota).I dont know if banning them on highways has any affect as i see so many 2 wheelers on Delhi-Gurgaon Eway and they are not supposed to be there!
Regarding the ABS thing,i also bought a WagonR Vxi with ABS/Airbags and now my question(although it may sound noob),does WagonR have ABS with EBD or is it a simple one?Can anyone put a collective data as to vehicles with ABS with/without EBD in India(maybe a new thread just listing such vehicles)?I also feel that it should be mandatory to have ABS+EBD in all vehicles.Stop giving us stupid audio systems that cannot play from a USB and doesn't have a remote(WagonR).Instead give us better equipment.
Attached Thumbnails
Pics: Accidents in India-dsc01195.jpg  

Pics: Accidents in India-dsc01198.jpg  


Last edited by BoneCollector : 20th May 2012 at 11:53.
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Old 20th May 2012, 12:11   #11144
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Glad to know that the occupants were unscathed , impressed with the SX4 performance on the safety count here ( structure rigidity, Airbag) .
I find it ridiculously surprising when people often purport how non ABS braking is superior to ABS braking - 2 channel/cross channel/4 channel whatever be the variations, an ABS braking system will always be superior to a non ABS braking system as long as the ABS is functional , period ! by superiority it means a combination of braking distance as well as car stability - it does not pay to have a shorter braking distance with a car turning turtle !
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Old 20th May 2012, 12:22   #11145
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Default Re: SX4 - Crash pictures

Good to know that every one was safe.
It is time we buyers understand the importance of safeties in our cars.
Instead of us wanting government to force safety devices in the vehicles being manufatured, if we stop buying vehicles without adequate safetie,s maufaturers would sure love to offer more of them.
Unfortunately masses never think beyond kitna deti hai and diesel hai kya?
I recently bought a pre owned SX4 Zxi. I was almost looked down upon as a maniac by nears and dears for not buying a diesel and being too picky about safeties.

SX4 as such is very well built car. She has taken the impact quite well. Given the wonderful braking capacity of the car it is quite safe IMO.

Was wondering if Indian SX4 has NCAP rating? Can someone pls answer?

Rgds.
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