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Old 12th December 2011, 03:59   #46
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
...
EDIT : While on the topic of airbags being deployed, I'm thinking.....in a severe accident, irrespective of the point of impact, why not have all airbags deploy by default (or atleast those around the seats that are occupied by passengers)? It's not like they are going to harm anyone, but they can sure save a life. I think the lobby of insurance companies has a hand in the selective activation of airbags.
Insurance companies do not cover airbag repairs as far as I know, so they really don't have to worry about it.

Airbags are extremely dangerous devices - the risks are supposed to be overweighed by the benefit under certain conditions i.e. when the person's body is expected to move in the direction of the airbag. Otherwise they are worse than mere useless and can be deadly too (they can injure you, they can knock you out so you may not be able to escape from a fire for example, they may hinder your escape route or the rescuers' access to you ...)

Imagine the protests if airbags severely injure somebody in a minor accident in which no injuries would have resulted otherwise, and you would know why deploying all airbags is not such a great idea.



Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
Suhaas, find my comments in bold below. We are not blaming Merc for the incident but for their negligence because life is precious and they or any of their dealers/service stations cannot take it easy. It is very much possible that service assistants are not trained and may have screwed up the security systems while servicing or the Merc is really shipping cars with faulty features. We just want the incident to be probed in detail and culprits (if any) should be punished.

Mark, deepest condolences to your family - nobody deserves this no matter what.

Regarding the operation of Airbags, the devices are linked to sensors especially in cars with multiple airbags, an the airbags deploy accordingly. For example in an impact from a vehicle coming from the left, usually only the curtain airbags would deploy on the left side - all other airbags would remain dormant.

I can understand your frustration that and questioning on "why not all airbags"; simple reason is that airbags can injure more in some situations that accident itself.

Why did the passenger side airbag deploy? how do we know that that particular airbag deployed at the point of the first impact and not when the car hit the kiosks later? Also how do we know that the driver side hit the truck first?

Assuming the car was going on the correct side of the road (there is no reason to believe it wasn't) - whether the truck was driving on the correct side or not, the car would have been to the left of the truck if the driver side hit the truck first - i.e. the truck would have been between the car and the divider. Now whichever way I imagine it - car and truck coming from opposite directions, car and truck going in the same direction ... the car can't shouldn't cross the divider.

Are you certain the car hit the truck first on the driver side, an not on the passenger side?

Last edited by vina : 12th December 2011 at 04:25.
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Old 12th December 2011, 08:00   #47
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Some potential issues with the investigation will lie with the forensics.

Will the police have enough evidence on what happened?
How has the evidence been secured?
How will the technical forensics be handled?

i.e if mercedes want to read the ECU, will the battery be disconnected for so long causing all data to be erased?
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Old 12th December 2011, 10:04   #48
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Mark, please use the [quote] ... [/quote] tags when answering point in a post like that, rather than answering in the quote, which makes it much harder to quote and reply to your points.

Quote:
Accident's happen everywhere and it has nothing to do with India or any other nation, so let's stop blaming India and Indian road conditions for every accident that happens. No one wants to get into an accident for fun, it just happens by mistake and mistakes can happen anywhere and by anyone.
Accidents don't just happen ever. They happen when we get things wrong, or fail to expect that others may get things wrong. If we must make this a national issue, then a quick look at world-wide statistics might suggest that there are places in the world that fewer accidents and fewer deaths. Then you have to ask why.
Quote:
I really appreciate and respect your driving education but just feel that you are trying to show off your knowledge here. And even if a driver follows all the points you have mentioned above, there is no guarantee he will not get into an accident.
Again, accidents do not just happen. But, one of my father's most valuable lessons to me: 50% of all accidents are the other person's fault. That is where defensive driving comes in.

It is not showing off: it is spreading the word of good driving. That is one of the essential purposes of this forum, not that I am suggesting that we succeed in being angelic or anywhere near perfect on the road --- I know I don't. However, it is is true that if such guidelines were followed there would be far fewer accidents. It is also true that the limits of even an average car are way beyond the capabilities of the average driver.

If we follow rules and guidelines, and if we drive defensively, we can minimise the risk of an accident. Nowhere in the world have road accidents been eliminated: that would be a dream only.
Quote:
So assuming the deceased was not following all the rules is not correct.
You are right. Assumptions cannot be made, although I suppose suggestions can.
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Old 12th December 2011, 10:53   #49
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
Suhaas, find my comments in bold below. We are not blaming Merc for the incident but for their negligence because life is precious and they or any of their dealers/service stations cannot take it easy. It is very much possible that service assistants are not trained and may have screwed up the security systems while servicing or the Merc is really shipping cars with faulty features. We just want the incident to be probed in detail and culprits (if any) should be punished.
Mark,

I'm deeply saddened by your loss. It really is very tragic and completely uncalled for. I completely understand the pain you're going through. We have lost a few family members in the past few years, and it has been very hard for us to deal with, as it was very sudden.

However, you must understand, that my views and opinions have NO bias at all. What I'm trying to say is one cannot blame the car, for an accident that looked to have been caused by human error/error in judgement.

Now I do understand that a loss is hard to deal with, but are comments such as these justifiable? These comments might be from close family members, and it is, understandably, anger that's driving them to do this, but I'd like to know, is this the solution to the issue at hand?

I'm going to quote a few comments from the video:

Quote:
Ban Mercedes Benz... Company is the KILLER... They have to pay for the loss....
Quote:
we all hate mercedes-the killer car.......
Quote:
BAN MERCEDES BENZ......IT KILLED OUR BROTHER!!!!!
Quote:
mercedez sucks!!! they have killed my bro???? if the airbags wud have opened, this wudnt have happened
Quote:
No one can bring my brother back...
how can the air bags not open???... Mercedes has killed our brother...
BAN MERCEDES..THE KILLING MACHINE
And that's not all, if you notice the suggestions on the right hand side, you'll see about 10 similar videos (essentially, videos of news feeds on TV), all with similar comments. What are they trying to achieve? Bad publicity will be forgotten in a matter of days. If they really want to make an impact, they must approach Mercedes and discuss the matter with attorneys present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
So you are suggesting the airbags will only work when the target hits the bulls eye. Given the state of the vehicle, one can see the damage has been considerable so if the airbags did not open on such an impact, I don't see what else it will take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
I thought security systems are designed to work under disasters only and if you are suggesting they malfunctioned during a disaster that's where the problem is. At the time of buying, everyone claims their safety systems are world class so let Mercedes come up with a statement that airbags may malfunction in case of accident so buyer's can make their decisions.
As far as I know, the steering-airbag will work only when the front bumper receives significant impact.

Yes, security systems are designed to work in the event of a disaster. Now if you look at the remains of the Mercedes in question, you will see that half of the driver's side has been ripped off. Now, when something like this happens, you can't expect electronically operated safety features to work. I mean, the shell of the car has been ripped off, and the shell is what keeps the occupants safe. The shell is what houses the safety equipment. So parts of the shell have been so severely damaged, there is little that electronics can do to save lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
Definitely many other factors and possibly others had more impact than the airbag. No one is denying the fact that the biggest reason is fate and bad luck and then the truck. But even if airbags not deploying played 0.1% part, the culprits should be punished because we are talking about life here.
I agree, wholeheartedly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
Accident's happen everywhere and it has nothing to do with India or any other nation, so let's stop blaming India and Indian road conditions for every accident that happens. No one wants to get into an accident for fun, it just happens by mistake and mistakes can happen anywhere and by anyone.
No, Sir. Accidents do not happen everywhere. Accidents happen due to carelessness, bad luck and the inability to respect your surroundings. If you're careful and defensive in your approach, the chances of meeting with an accident are far far lesser. I will take the liberty to quote a statement that I'd made in my previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
They might have superior car control and what not, but by pushing the car to the limits, you're not only shortening the time you get to react to a sudden change of scene, you're creating chances for accidents to take place.
Recently, there was a massive accident in Japan, involving over 10 exotic cars. All of them were presumably doing 200 km/h. The leader of the pack lost control after trying to over-correct a maneuver, and it caused a chain reaction, where all these exotic and luxury cars crashed into each other. Some of the cars have been mangled to pieces, but no lives were lost. Some of them suffered bruises and cuts.

if something like this were to have happened in India, I don't think some of hem would have made it out alive. It is because our roads are not designed for such driving in the first place. I'm sure these guys are safe drivers, but all it takes is one miscalculated move to throw everything out of control.

Yes, there have been instances where even safe drivers, who respect all rules and regulations, are unfortunately caught in the wrong place and at the wrong time. This is probably what happened to the Mercedes driver.

It is Indian road conditions that have contributed to such an accident. If the truck wasn't in the wrong lane and hadn't swerved, it would have been a different story.

Sir, you need to understand, that Indian driving conditions are hostile, and very unfavorable. There are scores of lives that are lost every day. India has the largest number of casualties due to road accidents. The number of lives lost on Indian roads are far greater than anywhere else in the World.

You probably know the attitude of the Indian driver, by now. But here is a short video that will help you understand what drivers on Indian roads think like:



Quote:
Originally Posted by markmytravel View Post
I really appreciate and respect your driving education but just feel that you are trying to show off your knowledge here. And even if a driver follows all the points you have mentioned above, there is no guarantee he will not get into an accident. So assuming the deceased was not following all the rules is not correct.
The point our family is raising here is if the airbags and safety features didn't activate in such a severe damage, who is to be blamed. We don't want to wait for someone to loose his life when meeting an accident at 30-40 speed because the air bag didn't activate. No one wants another family to loose their son, because the said safety features didn't work in an ordinary accident.
Mods: I am sorry to have been using such a language, so please feel free to delete this comment if you feel so. But its just my feeling and nothing personal against anyone.
Your post is bordering on being offensive. But I'm not going to take offense to it.

I am 22 years old. I do not have the knowledge and experience that I'd otherwise love to have. I honestly have nothing to show off. Team BHP has given me a platform to exercise and put forth my views and opinions. And you're calling me a show-off, for that?

For one thing, I never mentioned that you will be completely safe and no harm will come your way if you practice these points. Accidents can happen at any time and can catch you by surprise. That's why, it's called an 'accident'. But if one practices these guidelines, the chances of meeting with an accident would be a lot less, is what I'm trying to say.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 12th December 2011 at 11:00.
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Old 12th December 2011, 11:45   #50
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

There is little point debating whether the accident could have been avoided had safer driving practices been followed. It's a no-brainer: of COURSE it could have. Whether it WOULD have is another matter altogether, and that we shall never know.

The only thing to watch for here is how Mercedes Benz engages with the relatives. One of its customers lost their life driving one of their cars. I get that it's not just the car's responsibility to protect its owner but also and perhaps more important, the driver's responsibility to protect himself, his co-passengers, other drivers and occupants of the street and property. If they release a statement saying the car was being driven at 160 kmph when the speed limit was 60, giving the driver no time to react at all and in such a situation no amount of safety gadgetry is effective in saving a life, NOBODY is going to blame them.

But there is one question they MUST answer: why did one airbag deploy and another didn't? And if it must, why did the one that would ostensibly have been more effective in saving a life, not deploy? This goes against all commonsense and intuition.

My advice to the OP and his family: keep your hurt and anger aside. When something this horrific happens, there is a tendency to lash out at the most easily available target. This seems to be MB in this case (deduced from Suhaas's comments on the video, which I have NOT seen) I hope you realise that by alienating the company you are potentially losing out on the one source that can potentially help you find some closure here.
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Old 12th December 2011, 11:48   #51
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Forget the the airbag deployment and its triggers. There are only few types of accidents during which the systems can protect us.

Worldwide, number of people losing lives has not reduced dramatically since safer cars encourage us to drive with a little abandonment.

But I would be interested to know what exactly caused the sad incident and if there was something wrong with the vehicle or this was something that even the safest car wouldn't have been able to prevent.
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Old 12th December 2011, 11:50   #52
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Heartfelt Condolences from my side mark.

I do not wish to hurt anyone's sentiments here but since this is a technical discussion, we do have people with varying POVs like me.

We had a similar discussion about a C Class some pages back on Accidents in India thread:http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-pics-652.html



where i said:
Quote:
This is not Merc's design fault, look how truck's bumpers have hit directly on A pillars. Cars are not designed to absorb head on impact directly on Pillars, in this case i would blame the truck manufacturer for the bad design and our country's lack of safety laws. Ever saw a truck with bumper placed so high in any developed country. AFAIK it is now mandatory to have low placed bumpers in newer truck.

Any other car no matter how safe it is will deform similarly. AFAIK the C Class is amongst the safest cars around with 5 Star Euro NCAP rating.
Modern cars are designed to absorb impact by redirecting the energy to save the passengers. But they are not designed to absorb all the force of impact on A Pillars. No car in the world will survive this kind of direct impact on A pillars, who do we blame here- The bad design of the trucks and lack of any safety norms.

I feel even if the Airbag would come out it would not have helped much, look at the intrusion in the cabin.

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Old 12th December 2011, 11:55   #53
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Mark, I cant say i understand what you're going through, but i can understand why you would be so upset to verbally lash out at all things MB.
For all everyone is saying to justify the cars behavior, or lack of it, that's the avenue you have chosen, and i dont blame you for it.
Every one of us in , god forbid not similar situations, but in something a 100 times less distastrous has done this, a "what if X variable was different?".
So I cant, and wont say that you are not justified.
you are amply justified.
But just for the sake of the court action that you've indicated, i think you should not post your angst now on public forums.
Just for the sake of the case, if it is happening.
I hope closure happens soon for you.
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Old 12th December 2011, 12:29   #54
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

I have a lost a friend in the U.S when a truck (Dodge RAM kind) rammed against his car sideways. They had to cut open the car.
And manufacturers are doing tests to consider such impacts. But then they dont test against a truck (tractor trailer and such).

For someone who said plastic parts are not covered, most of these systems are not developed specifically for India. Abroad, the switch to deactivate the passenger side airbag (now automatic) was given to reduce the damage to the car and to bring down the cost.

Last edited by srishiva : 12th December 2011 at 12:33.
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Old 12th December 2011, 12:43   #55
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
I do not wish to hurt anyone's sentiments here but since this is a technical discussion, we do have people with varying POVs like me.

We had a similar discussion about a C Class some pages back on Accidents in India thread:http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...-pics-652.html where i said........
Well said.

I wanted to say the same but didn't want to hurt anybody's sentiment here. I have seen lot of trucks that have their front and rear bumpers which are good 2-3 feet high. Such incidents would recur as long as these truckers keep flouting safety norms.

Have a look at the front end and the cabin and you can see the impact was directly on the cabin.

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team: Kindly do not quote an entire original post as it inconveniences our small screen and mobile users. You can quote only the required text and reply accordingly. Thanks.

Last edited by n_aditya : 12th December 2011 at 15:06.
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Old 12th December 2011, 12:49   #56
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Many people are suggesting that even if air bags went off, the life couldnt have been saved due to shearing of pillar.

It isn't up to us to suggest what could or couldnt have happened if things were different. Point is, a life was lost and things that COULD have prevented or reduced the chance of death didnt work.

I for one, do not buy the argument that there isnt enough damage at the bumper for the airbag to not go off. secondly, the side airbags should have Activated and inflated FASTER than metal pillars being sheared. They should have activated as soon as side impact was detected. If this was the US, you would expect the NHTSA to start investigations and really grind MB which would eventually lead to fines and recalls.

Here is a viral youtube video showing how sensitive bumber sensors are.

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Old 12th December 2011, 12:56   #57
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Nirmal was a dear friend of mine. We have spent our childhood playing cricket together in various inter school tournaments and a lot of friendly matches, being coached by the same person. We met only a few days before the incident in a very long time outside a popular cafe and exchanged our business cards when he sarcastically said 'you do not have time these days I guess, so let it be an exporter talking to another exporter n laughed'. And all I am left with is his visiting card still in my Wallet. And I am just unable to give my enough condolences to the sweet family that has lost a gem. From flaunting our bikes as kids in 11th grade to here mourning over his death has been a disturbing event. Wish, I called him once from my busy time and talked to him but life had some other plans.

Coming to his S Class, the Mercedes people were outright rude in saying 'the airbags are linked to seatbelts, maybe he wasnt wearing a seat belt' without any probe. A peaceful candle march attended by hundreds at TNT Motors, Jaipur showed them that they need to be sensitive towards people as they are not above any family's emotions that has lost their kid. Nirmal may have lived or may not have because of the airbags is his destiny, but the security features on the car should have worked and partial deployment of the other side's airbag raises eyebrows. May Nirmal's soul rest in peace and family gets the courage to face the tragedy. Good people often depart the bad world early.

Last edited by gaurav_diavolo : 12th December 2011 at 13:06.
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Old 12th December 2011, 13:03   #58
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

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Originally Posted by Warhound View Post
Here is a viral youtube video showing how sensitive bumber sensors are.
Just to clarify but the video is actually an advert by Ikea

Same Video with a bunch of others in the related videos section under Ikea What If.

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Old 12th December 2011, 15:11   #59
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

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Originally Posted by gaurav_diavolo View Post
Coming to his S Class, the Mercedes people were outright rude in saying 'the airbags are linked to seatbelts, maybe he wasnt wearing a seat belt' without any probe. A peaceful candle march attended by hundreds at TNT Motors, Jaipur showed them that they need to be sensitive towards people as they are not above any family's emotions that has lost their kid.
That statement should be easy to refute if the report about the seat belt having to be cut in the first post can be backed up by photographic or eyewitness evidence. I am finding it incredibly hard to digest that a company of the stature of Mercedes Benz doesn't realise the sensitivity of this issue and respond appropriately. And this *is* an S-class customer we're talking about- they should have a relationship with the owners!

What's this about candlelight marches? Wouldn't the more sensible option be to escalate the issue directly to MBIL's senior management through email or social media channels?
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Old 12th December 2011, 15:14   #60
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Default Re: Mercedes S-Class Accident : Owner dead, Airbag doesn't activate and Court orders

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
Insurance companies do not cover airbag repairs as far as I know, so they really don't have to worry about it.
They actually do. Both front airbags of Moderator Rtech's Octavia needed to be replaced, at a whopping cost of 1.2 lakhs (IIRC). The insurance covered 50% of the cost.

Also, if you go for the new 0% depreciation plans, the insurance will cover the entire cost.
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