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Old 31st December 2011, 11:42   #46
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Long back Fortuner got into roll over controversy in South Africa, there were a lot of roll over incidents and suddenly this SUV got an image of extremely unsafe vehicle. Toyota even recalled some cars. Later in response they added full time All Wheel Drive and ESP with rollover mitigation along with some tweaks to the suspension.

The current generation version we have here is the updated version minus ESP and Curtain Airbags. The facelifted version coming next month will have ESP in AWD MT variant only, while the other 2WD variants AT and MT will miss out on both ESP(VSC- Vehicle Stability Control in Toyota language) and AWD.

A quote by GTO from Official Fortuner Review-
Quote:
Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) or, in other words, the ESP (Electronic Stability Program). Available only on the 4x4 MT. The VSC kicks in whenever it detects understeer (front tyres losing grip) or oversteer (rear tyres losing grip). It reduces engine power and / or applies the brake to the individual wheels that are losing traction, and brings the Fortuner back in line. The system continually monitors steering input, and whether the SUV is actually headed in the intended direction:
Some links to South Africa's Fortuner roll over issues:
Toyota Fortuner rollover problem: will it kill? | Kaptein Caprivi blogs...
Hilux / Fortuner problems - SA 4x4 Community Forum
Fortuner Fortuner Handling: Are you affected? [Archive] - SA 4x4 Community Forum
Fortuner (Facelift) | Durban South | New & Used Cars | Used Vehicles | South Africa
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Old 31st December 2011, 11:44   #47
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
First we install illegal, unsafe & aftermarket accessories like bull bars, which by the way is not recommended on a car with airbags, and then we talk about safety & flame the company???

Who knows, as bblost said, the bull bars maybe the reason that the airbags dint deploy.
bull bars are mostly the reason why air bags do not trigger. Upon impact, the force is transferred to the mounting bolts and then directly to the chassis, so the sensors may not feel the impact required to inflate.
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Old 31st December 2011, 12:33   #48
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
First we install illegal, unsafe & aftermarket accessories like bull bars, which by the way is not recommended on a car with airbags, and then we talk about safety & flame the company???
So true. And you cannot only blame companies for not providing safety features in a car. A 2.5 million worth of car loaded with safety and then, an unscientific, untested, ugly 2K worth of bull bar can negate all the safety provided. What is the use if people are ignorant?

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
I think effectiveness of ABS is also relative to speed. Here, the curve around a small hillock must have been taken at a high speed that was more than what the vehicle was capable of handling, and so ABS or not it would have gone out of control.
The effectiveness of ABS also depends on the ability of the driver to control the vehicle. In an ABS equipped vehicle, if you stand on the brake, it's not going to magically steer you out of danger. I've personally witnessed an ABS equipped car going into the drains as the vehicle was not steered away by the driver in panic. It never locked the wheel, but as there was no steering input, it went straight.
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Old 31st December 2011, 12:58   #49
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
First we install illegal, unsafe & aftermarket accessories like bull bars, which by the way is not recommended on a car with airbags, and then we talk about safety & flame the company???

Who knows, as bblost said, the bull bars maybe the reason that the airbags dint deploy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
So true. And you cannot only blame companies for not providing safety features in a car. A 2.5 million worth of car loaded with safety and then, an unscientific, untested, ugly 2K worth of bull bar can negate all the safety provided. What is the use if people are ignorant?
A small clarification. I do not own the car nor was I involved at the time of the accident. Personally, I also don't like bull bars aesthetically or otherwise. And no one I guess is trying to flame or blame the company. My intention was to understand the air bag deployment and to question in lay man terms that if such severe damage does not deploy the air bags what is the use of them. And many POV's have come forth which is good for understanding the whole thing.

And A350XWB, most don't consider Fortuner "loaded" with safety for its 2.5 million price as you have mentioned in the highlighted text above. And thats why I questioned the safety of the car for the price it comes. Now, the upgrade though have got ESP, it still does not have rear discs, air bags all around etc. It seems Toyota is simply riding on the success of the car and taking us for granted that whatever is dished out under the Fortuner body shell we'll lap it up. Simply, put its way overpriced.

Slightly OT: An amusing thought just passed my mind. Since, its a Toyota we are trying to go deep and understand the workings of the air bags. Imagine it being a TATA car, many of us would have by now jumped the gun and ripped apart the poor souls at TATA calling them names like buffons, imcompetent fools and questioning their engineering and techincal capabilities.
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Old 31st December 2011, 13:01   #50
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Will try & explain. The aftermarket one in the accident pics is different from the ones sold by Toyota. My doubt was whether the Toyota standard accessory is designed to be used with bumpers & crumble zones working as expected during the design of the car, which causes minimal damage to pedestrians if they come in contact with the vehicle.

Edit:: In the second pic, the bumper seems to be pretty much in good shape - no dents. So we can safely assume that the air bags sensors were NOT activated. Seeing the damage to the A pillar triggered my thoughts on mounting air bags on A pillar or air bags getting deployed on A pillar impacts.
Thanks @swiftnfurious


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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
@Avon: I don't think anyone is arguing on behalf of Toyota. Most people including myself are trying to make people understand how and when air bags will be deployed. It will work the same for any manufacturer. Air bag sensors cannot be made too sensitive that they will deploy at every minor fender bender. Hence they are kind of placed on the inside beyond the bumpers.

Forget we are discussing Toyota for a moment, this rule applies to all vehicles with front only airbags. As I mentioned earlier, my Scorpio manual has pictorials of when the airbag won't deploy and it very clearly mentions that it may not deploy in a roll over.

That being said, it was shameful of Toyota to delete ESP for the Indian version. Why should they value our lives any less than other developed markets? ESP may have prevented the roll over in the first place..
Thanks @4x4addict. Please do not think that I am against Toyota, I am not against or fan of any brand.
And in this case probably due to luck and Fortuners build quality, passengers came out without any major injuries.

But the main query OP raised is Airbags not deploying even after the severe impact.

I think I wasn't clear in my earlier post -

- looking at the 2nd pics, I am surprised to see Air Bags didnt deploy

- ok, airbag deployment is programmed/automated...etc. I agree that any aftermarket accessories fitted in the car may cause issues (bull bar or a simple music system...)

Having said that, by frontal impact - do we mean impact only to bumper ?
Is bumper the only front portion of the car ? Its NOT, frontal impact may happen from other angles too!(please refer the bonnet in the 2nd pic, its clear it took a severe impact)

- Basic instinct for any driver would be to avoid head on collision in any case, so I cannot go and hit the car and that too on those 2-3-4 certain points on the front bumper for the front airbags to deploy and save my life

- IMO if front airbag deployment is only limited to front bumper impact, its high time manufacturers start thinking about upgrading the airbag deployment process.

In current scenario, even if I drive a car with air bags etc, I`ll be skeptical about full safety.

- Lastly, we are assuming here and there are no facts to prove that aftermarket bull bar caused failure of airbag deployment also we cannot say for sure that Toyota`s famous QA dept. messed up with airbag deployment testing in certain batches of Fortuners. We only come to know when a company does re-call, till that time the car is perfect and no issues.

- As this accident took place in India, there is a slim chance we`ll come to know the truth. Customer will file a case and the manufacturer (any) will take his own time (years or decades) and the case will go on and on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Should we assume that a person who spent almost 25L on a car didn't know the functionality of air-bags and the DOs & DON'Ts ? The thoughts sure get complicated.
Yes, I don't see anything difficult to understand here
I mean outside forums like these, there are people who won't be able to open the bonnet of their own car, airbag is much more complicated.

Last edited by AvonA7 : 31st December 2011 at 13:05.
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Old 31st December 2011, 13:56   #51
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by AvonA7 View Post
Thanks @4x4addict. Please do not think that I am against Toyota, I am not against or fan of any brand.
And in this case probably due to luck and Fortuners build quality, passengers came out without any major injuries.

But the main query OP raised is Airbags not deploying even after the severe impact.

I think I wasn't clear in my earlier post -

- looking at the 2nd pics, I am surprised to see Air Bags didnt deploy

Having said that, by frontal impact - do we mean impact only to bumper ?
Is bumper the only front portion of the car ? Its NOT, frontal impact may happen from other angles too!(please refer the bonnet in the 2nd pic, its clear it took a severe impact)

- Basic instinct for any driver would be to avoid head on collision in any case, so I cannot go and hit the car and that too on those 2-3-4 certain points on the front bumper for the front airbags to deploy and save my life

- IMO if front airbag deployment is only limited to front bumper impact, its high time manufacturers start thinking about upgrading the airbag deployment process.

In current scenario, even if I drive a car with air bags etc, I`ll be skeptical about full safety.

- Lastly, we are assuming here and there are no facts to prove that aftermarket bull bar caused failure of airbag deployment also we cannot say for sure that Toyota`s famous QA dept. messed up with airbag deployment testing in certain batches of Fortuners. We only come to know when a company does re-call, till that time the car is perfect and no issues.

- As this accident took place in India, there is a slim chance we`ll come to know the truth. Customer will file a case and the manufacturer (any) will take his own time (years or decades) and the case will go on and on and on.
Well said Avon. I totally agree and these are precisely the points that I raised. If sensors are not there on the other parts of the front apart from the bumper, then I think its a cause for concern. Simply because, I might just tip a bag of sand or bump a speed breaker and the air bags would deploy when I don't need it and will not deploy when I hit something, just around the bumper even when the impact is severe. The fender, A pillar, corner of the door all cave in and the air bags refuse their service because I manage to miss hitting the bumper head on. As mentioned by others, most head ons are rather side ons as people tend to steer away from hitting something by instinct, I think the norms for front air bag deployment should also be reworked. Otherwise as mentioned by Avon, we would still feel unsafe with air bag and it will be felt as a mere gizmo such as voice assist.
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Old 31st December 2011, 16:50   #52
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Long back Fortuner got into roll over controversy in South Africa, there were a lot of roll over incidents and suddenly this SUV got an image of extremely unsafe vehicle. Toyota even recalled some cars. Later in response they added full time All Wheel Drive and ESP with rollover mitigation along with some tweaks to the suspension.
In 2009, Toyota added VSC, changed the tyres and tweaked the suspension a little bit. The Fortuner was always fulltime 4WD AFAIK. Most people said that the rollovers (that happened mostly on corrugated dirt roads) were due to driver error/wrong air pressure on dirt roads etc., while others said that there is a problem with the Fortuner. The jury is still out on that, but people say that rollover risk can be further mitigated with upgrading the shocks of the vehicle (apparently the vehicle is 'undershocked').

The Defender also had problems with rollovers. A tall vehicle needs to be driven appropriately. From my experience with the Fortuner, it takes some time to figure out (when coming from the sedan/hatchback world) what the vehicle can or can't do (especially in curves, while braking and on twisty roads.)

I have had to use the Fortuner's ABS a number of times and it has responded properly (when I turned the steering wheel while braking). Hope it stays that way. I plan to upgrade my shocks after the warranty is over, especially since I can't retrofit VSC to my Classic Fortuner. In any case, when I drive the Fortuner, I always drive it knowing that it is a tall vehicle susceptible to rollovers.

This accident has also been a learning in terms of seat belts. While we always ensure that the front passengers and the child is wearing belts (car seat in the child's case), I will make it a point to force all middle seat passengers to wear the belt.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 31st December 2011 at 16:52.
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Old 31st December 2011, 16:51   #53
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
And A350XWB, most don't consider Fortuner "loaded" with safety for its 2.5 million price as you have mentioned in the highlighted text above. And thats why I questioned the safety of the car for the price it comes. Now, the upgrade though have got ESP, it still does not have rear discs, air bags all around etc. It seems Toyota is simply riding on the success of the car and taking us for granted that whatever is dished out under the Fortuner body shell we'll lap it up. Simply, put its way overpriced.
wanderer4x4, my comment was inline with many posts here and what I regularly see on the road. 90% of these SUV's run around with these kind of bull bars and they effectively reduces whatever safety the car offers. It was not meant to be applicable only for this particular incident. Is the Fortuner overpriced for the features it provides? I think it is indeed overpriced. But why is it like that? Because people simply don't bother and lap it up like hot cakes. The consumer is not demanding anything and till they do it, Toyota will not bother.
Coming to the airbag deployment scenario. Many have already commented about this. There are two possible reason for this.
1. The frontal impact was within the threshold of the sensors. It was a side swipe as far as I understood and it may not cause an airbag deployment. For example, in the Figo, the airbags will deploy only if the angle is within 30, each side.
2. There is a high probability that the bull bar played spoil-sport in the incident. It might have masked the impact on the sensors and also created considerable chassis damage by transferring the impact directly to it instead of the energy absorbing components.
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Old 31st December 2011, 18:26   #54
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

I hate bull bars. It kills pedestrians and reduce effectiveness of crumble zone. But can it really make an airbag sensor ineffective? If the sensor is a MEMS accelerometer, in case of a frontal collision it should detect the rapid deceleration in x axis irrespective of where it is placed or whether you have bull bar or not.Every element of the vehicle will experience this decelerating force on a frontal impact. Why every one is assuming that some kind of physical contact is required for the sensor to fire? Or is it that the bull bar will reduce the negative g acting on the vehicle during impact?
This accident the airbags were not fired since there was not enough frontal impact force. Looks like the vehicle skidded, rolled over and then made an impact with tree on RHS. Other wise the impact would have been on LHS if it happened first while it skidded on a curve.

Last edited by poloman : 31st December 2011 at 18:30.
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Old 31st December 2011, 18:32   #55
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
This accident has also been a learning in terms of seat belts. While we always ensure that the front passengers and the child is wearing belts (car seat in the child's case), I will make it a point to force all middle seat passengers to wear the belt.
Exactly! Without all occupants wearing seat belts, the outcome could have been really very different with the passengers tossed about during the whole crash and roll over. Thankfully, everyone including the middle row was wearing the belts and the positive result is there for all to see.
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Old 1st January 2012, 01:44   #56
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
Exactly! Without all occupants wearing seat belts, the outcome could have been really very different with the passengers tossed about during the whole crash and roll over. Thankfully, everyone including the middle row was wearing the belts and the positive result is there for all to see.
Very relieved to learn that the occupants were safe! Hope they recover from the nightmares very fast. Such horrific experiences have this ugly long tail that follows long after the harrowing incident has become history.

Btw - where did this accident happen? I see your location is Jorhat. I am living in Assam so extra curious to know if the accident happened in Assam.

Unfortunately, we have long, long, very long way to go to secure our own safety on the road - be as somebody in an automobile or as pedestrians or as users of manual means of transport. In one hand our country's cops are infamous for asking for bribes at the drop of a hat; whilst on the other our gained notoriety for an abysmally low level of adherence to existing safety measures. Why can't a minuscule part of our traffic cops be more "permanently" deployed, or additional personnel hired, to challan all instances of road safety compromises, for example not wearing safety belts, helmets, installing hazardous add-ons, high beam abusers, etc? It will employ more people and also generate more revenues.

I use seat belt even when seated at the rear. I started it because of my back pain. But now i find it more useful in travelling "steady". I get looks as if I am one of those snobbish attention seekers or suffer from paranoia of the big bad world. And a lot of strange expressions that i cannot decipher
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Old 2nd January 2012, 09:21   #57
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
I really really do feel that Fortuner is way overpriced for what it offers. XUV at half the price makes even more sense now, with the 6 air bags all around along with all other safety features.
I think that is a unjustified comment in context of this topic. I sense other intentions of the OP in starting such a topic to maybe get this point across. With so many news of many electronics failure in the compared vehicle, the same may happen to it, even when the airbags were supposed to deploy.

As correctly pointed out by many mods, frontal airbag deployment depends upon the destruction of the frontal crumple zones which seem to be intact in this case. As such this was one of my worries for not adding any bull bars to my Fortuner in case of such an event. Further it was the solid integrity of the build quality which saved all the occupants even after multiple roll ups although all around seat-belts contributed too.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 10:21   #58
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Its relieving to hear everyone came out unscathed.
Apart from the bull-bar issue, OP said the first impact was from the side, and the vehicle rolled, and all the associated damage to the front etc occurred.
So once the pillars, and roof had buckled in, expectedly coming closer to the driver and passengers due the buckling, airbag deployment would have caused more injuries than preventing any.They could have bounced the heads/limbs off of the buckled metal.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 10:24   #59
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

The title has been changed. All passengers escaped with minor injuries despite multiple rollovers. That itself says Fortuner is safe, therefore the title was very unfair. The airbags didn't deploy for obvious reasons, there is no evidence of frontal impact, and the sensors were anyway compromised by the after market bull bars. There are bull bars that are airbag compatible, but this doesn't look like one.

Bull Bar Design & Engineering | ARB 4x4 Accessories
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Old 2nd January 2012, 11:11   #60
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by AvonA7 View Post
I am no expert, having said that, looking at the 2nd pics, if the front aig bags do not deploy, IMO, we are un-necessarily arguing on behalf of Toyota !
Do take a look at the pics again. The vehicle has a crash guard. So it protected the sensors. If the airbags "had" deployed, I would have been surprised!
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